Topic 22 of 40: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Sat, Nov 22, 1997 (08:00) |
El Sam Blob (Afor)
Corvair, Tucker, Crosley, Dymaxion, DeLorean, Caterham; these are not your average cars! These are the products of men with uncompromising ideas. Apart from the Caterham Seven, none of these was a resounding success (then again, the Caterham Seven wasn't originally a Caterham product).
Let's talk unusual, whether successful or not. Road, racer, off-road, whatever! Pioneers welcome too, like the Jensen FF and the Audi Quattro. What off-the-wall ideas worked, what didn't, and what didn't work then that might work with current technology!
37 responses total.
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 1 of 37: Frank Susca (Cafe) * Sat, Nov 22, 1997 (12:11) * 2 lines
Lotus & Chapman, ahh. I think the problem with the Super Seven & the Europa, from my experience, was that the Chapman philosophy was so involved with light weight he couldn't build the practicality and long life into the cars neede for survival. The rear splines on the Europa were lousy castings, for instance. And the driver, in both vehicles was almost secondary to the efficient functioning of the mechanics. Keeping to Formula(s) is one thing, putting it on the street for Joe Buyer-enthusiast is another.
Yes, I'd buy either in a blink (o:}
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 2 of 37: Frank Susca (Cafe) * Sat, Nov 22, 1997 (12:14) * 1 lines
DeLorean: Not bad really. the "Story" will take precedence over the final concept, but the idea apart from the SS bodywork was good. I've been a passenger several times and it's a great ride, even though you wait for departure/arrival if you know what I mean! DeLorean's personality/ego killed his own idea. (Saw him wandering on Park Ave. a while ago, looking in the GM showroom!
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 3 of 37: El Sam Blob (Afor) * Sat, Nov 22, 1997 (21:23) * 5 lines
The Seven, IMO, is a contender for the title "Four Wheeled Motorcycle", right up there with Frank's dune buggy: the difference being that the buggy is a D-P, while the Seven is more of a sportbike!
I take it that the stainless steel bodywork was a bust. I didn't think that the Renault V-6 had enough steam for supercar performance (although it did quite well for Alpine; maybe a DeLorean-Alpine would work?)
Wonder what John Z. is doing now?
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 4 of 37: Frank Susca (Cafe) * Mon, Nov 24, 1997 (08:08) * 1 lines
The Renault was a little anemic. When I saw DeL. a while back he was well-dressed but kinda blown-out looking, signed an autograph on the spot but didn't seem with it. Who knows?
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 5 of 37: El Sam Blob (Afor) * Tue, Nov 25, 1997 (05:52) * 6 lines
I didn't realize that I mentioned another unusual car in my last post!
The dune buggy, brainchild of Bruce Meyers!
When Jeeps were big, heavy and uncool (nowadays, two out of three ain't bad), Bruce Meyers put a lightweight, open body on the Volkswagen platform (was it shortened? I don't remember) and created... What can I call it? All-terrain vehicles are those little four-wheeled things with motorcycle type handlebar and controls, dual-purpose vehicles are usually thought of as motorbikes, and there was nothing utilitarian about it (although it definitely was sporting; it broke the Baja record, which was held by
motorcycle!) The Meyers Manx was the definitive dune buggy. There were hundreds of imitators, and they pushed Meyers to the wall.
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 6 of 37: Frank Susca (Cafe) * Tue, Nov 25, 1997 (09:26) * 4 lines
Meyers was also a bad finance manager Sam. He's now licensed a newer desogn out to an independant 'glass shop.
In the 70's fiberglass, when done right, actually became costly to mold and produce to a point where it could be turned out in volume without faults. Myeyers' original design was/is very strong, but expensive to produce compared to the knock-offs, so after about 3 years he lost serious money. Since most treated the buggy as expendable, the cheap guys actually made a profit. Meyers' strength was that he really studied the design for the application and built properly, so his vehicles took a beating when ot
ers broke.
Funny, while many build up their buggy with a beach-rod look, I really want mine to be an "all terrain" transporter (No fat rear tires,etc.)
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 7 of 37: El Sam Blob (Afor) * Tue, Nov 25, 1997 (19:13) * 5 lines
So Meyers took a beating because the Manx could take a beating!
This when H-D had a near-catastrophic loss of market share due to poor quality! Strange!
Even VW got into the act, with their Caribe (aka "Thing")! The hardtop version of the "Thing" is more practical than the Bug, what with four doors and a bigger trunk. However, the "Thing" was made in steel...
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 8 of 37: El Sam Blob (Afor) * Tue, Nov 25, 1997 (19:15) * 1 lines
...as opposed to fiberglas, like the other dune buggies...
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 9 of 37: Frank Susca (Cafe) * Wed, Nov 26, 1997 (10:57) * 2 lines
I have a little old lady across the road from me with a Type 181/Thing (didn't know "Caribe"!) sitting there, hoping for classic status. The 181 is Heavy! and subject to rust=expensive to restore. And Slow.
The manx-types have shortened pans for dune-ing, or long pan, for off-road stuff. Mine's short, I had no choice, but set up properly it goes anywhere.
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 10 of 37: El Sam Blob (Afor) * Wed, Nov 26, 1997 (20:21) * 1 lines
Shorter wheelbase = more sensitive (better turning response) = less stable, I guess.
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 11 of 37: Robert L White (britbker) * Thu, Nov 27, 1997 (19:11) * 1 lines
Anyone want to discuss car's i'll listen been a mechanic for over twenty years and still love the automobile even if sometimes it does not love me. But have loved biking longer.. Men and mechinery we can't help ourselves .. later evryone,have a good turkey day .
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 12 of 37: El Sam Blob (Afor) * Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (14:58) * 1 lines
Well, from the experience you have, maybe we should do the listening! I've never owned a car, and my first motorcycle is still in pieces, waiting for me to arrange to have it fixed (I need to change the shaft for the gearshift lever, and I tried to do it myself but got stuck.)
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 13 of 37: El Sam Blob (Afor) * Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (18:50) * 7 lines
I have started a topic about Mazda's sports cars. While entering the topic, I realised that the Mazda RX-7 should also be mentioned here, along with their pre-RX-7 rotary cars (& pickup truck!) since they all use the still unconventional Waknel rotary engine!
Before the RX-7, Mazda made small family sedans like the RX-3 and RX-4 and a pickyp truck based on these cars. However, people in the Seventies didn't really want a small Japanese car with the fuel consumption of a Buick of the time, especially since the rotary engine wasn't as reliable then as it would later become (apex seal problems affected these first rotary cars).
Mazda remained committed to the rotary engine, so they asked themselves: Who would want a powerful, lightweight engine with high fuel consumption and a reputation for unreliability? Maybe they saw someone driving an Corvette or Triumph on the road and had a brainstorm; I don't know! But along came the RX-7 and at least fifteen years of rotary sports-car history!
One of the most successful unusual cars ever, so much so that I didn't even think of it as unusual until just now!
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 14 of 37: El Sam Blob (Afor) * Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (18:52) * 1 lines
Actually, the first Wankel rotary cars were made by NSU and Audi, I really meant to say "these first Maza rotary cars".
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 15 of 37: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sat, Nov 29, 1997 (21:25) * 2 lines
What's the story and the Valerian?
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 16 of 37: El Sam Blob (Afor) * Sun, Nov 30, 1997 (11:59) * 1 lines
Never before heard of a Valerian. Sounds interesting! WHere was it made, and by whom?
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 17 of 37: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Mon, Dec 1, 1997 (10:49) * 2 lines
I meant Delorian. Oops.
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 18 of 37: El Sam Blob (Afor) * Mon, Dec 1, 1997 (23:57) * 9 lines
John Z. DeLorean: Former General Manager of the Chevrolet Division of General Motors. Left GM to build his own sports car, the DeLorean. This car is probably most famous for its role in the Back To The Future movies, where it was the time machine that could attain time travel at a speed of 88 miles per hour.
DeLorean got a lot of money from the government of the United Kingdom in order to build his factory in Northern Ireland. He contracted Lotus Engineering to refine the design, although the spine-frame suggests that Lotus might have been involved in, or at least inspired, the initial design as well. DeLorean must have heard of the Renault-Alpine sports cars, but I guess he failed to realize that Alpine modified (and turbocharged, I think) the V-6 to get the supercar performance.
The bodywork was plastic with stainless steel outer panels.
The car was not a success, and he lost all the money. Undercover DEA agents were hounding him to deal in cocaine to get the money he needed to save his business. After several rejections, he finally told them he'd do it; they, of course, set up a sting and arrested him. He was acquitted, but that was the end of the DeLorean sports car.
Now DeLorean is a footnote in history, a bit of trivia which just might introduce some people to the concept of mid-engined cars (although Ferraris and Lamborghinis probably do so more often!)
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 19 of 37: El Sam Blob (Afor) * Sun, Dec 7, 1997 (01:26) * 6 lines
O.K. The Chrysler Sebring Convertible topic has gone to convertibles in general, and Frank has mentioned his least favourite convertible there. Frank's least favourite convertible is a product from a long-standing manufacturer of unusual (but getting steadily less so) cars, that being the Swedish Aeroplane Company; in Swedish: Svenska Aeroplan Atkiebolaget, abbreviated S.A.Ab.
Yes, we are talking about Saab here (or SAAB, as I refer to them, it is more properly S.A.Ab.) They were front-drive when front drive wasn't cool. They embraced front-drive and aerodynamic bodywork (aircraft company, remember?) before the Citroen DS was a gleam in its designer's eye. For their first few decades, they also made cars with two-stroke engines; their first four-stroke engines being V-4's (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong), their later inline engines were originally designed and built by Tr
umph (the carmaker).
S.A.Ab. is now 50% owned by General Motors, so expect a decline in unusual-ness as the world catches up with SAAB the way it did with Citroen.
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 20 of 37: El Sam Blob (Afor) * Sun, Dec 7, 1997 (01:40) * 8 lines
I mentioned Citroen twice in the last post; Citroens were at one time at least as unusual as SAABs, if not more so!
Andre Citroen was the European Continent's first mass producer of cars (I don't know if William Morris beat him to it, but he wasn't on the Continent anyway). His first cars were somewhat ordinary, but the 5CV with two front seats and one rear seat was a bit odd-looking. The Traction Avant was quite possibly the first mass produced front-drive car (the Christie taxi and the Cord luxury car were not mass produced). After Citroen became insolvent and Michelin bought them out, Michelin decided that they c
uld really sell a lot of tyres by making a small car in the millions. The universally recognized and either-loved-or-hated 2CV (Deux Chevaux) was the result.
In 1955, Citroen brought out the DS19, with two prominent futuristic features: aerodynamic bodywork (measured Cd of 0.35, better than the original VW Rabbit about 25 years into the future) and hydro-pneumatic suspension. About a decade later, they brought out the GS, an intermediate model acting as a stepping stone between the extremely basic 2CV and the luxurious DS. Also in the Seventies, Citroen bought Maserati, which they later sold to deTomaso, who nearly killed it off.
Citroen is now a division of Peugeot, and the only real difference between current Citroens and contemporary Peugeots is the hydropneumatic suspension. It's not so much that Citroen has become mainstream as it is that the mainstream has caught up with Citroen.
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 21 of 37: Frank Susca (Cafe) * Mon, Dec 8, 1997 (17:32) * 1 lines
Hey you beat me to it! Citroen. A weirdo misunderstood by the US. I was toying with buying an SM once, and would have if parts & mechanics weren't so hard to come by. Looked at Saab Turbos the same way (the 1st generation 900 Turbo was *nice*!).
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 22 of 37: El Sam Blob (Afor) * Tue, Dec 9, 1997 (23:20) * 3 lines
& those since?
SMs had the Merak engine in them, didn't they?
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 23 of 37: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Dec 9, 1997 (23:44) * 4 lines
Let's get our brain trust here in gear and really help out humdog out!
I, for one, really dig it that humdog is swimming in the spring.
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 24 of 37: El Sam Blob (Afor) * Wed, Dec 10, 1997 (00:03) * 1 lines
So who's humdrum...er, humdog?
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 25 of 37: Frank Susca (Cafe) * Wed, Dec 10, 1997 (11:26) * 1 lines
Yeah sam the SM had a detuned Merak motor and a host of other really cool tings wrapped up in it. Kinda like driving a land bound sub though, at least in the city. But if you wanted different that was the one!
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 26 of 37: El Sam Blob (Afor) * Mon, Dec 22, 1997 (22:19) * 3 lines
I saw a Westfield, a copy of the Lotus Seven, yesterday. And my camera's out being repaired! AAAAAGH!!!!! It was bright yellow, and I spoke with the owner before he drove off. He tells me that there's a real Seven in Jamaica, raced by one of Jamaica's most prominent motor racers at Dover Raceway in St. Ann.
Nice!
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 27 of 37: Frank Susca (Cafe) * Tue, Dec 23, 1997 (12:22) * 1 lines
Hey Westfield's are pretty good. They have some really nasty motor options. Too bad about the camera Sam, I know that situation well! So now your mission is to hunt down the Westy or the Seven and cop a ride, you'll be well rewarded.
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 28 of 37: El Sam Blob (Afor) * Wed, Dec 24, 1997 (11:54) * 3 lines
Problem is that I weigh 110 kg (just about 250 lb). Can a Seven (or Seven replica) handle the weight of self & driver?
There's a Westfield called a Seight. Uses the Buick aluminium V-8 (in the States; in Europe it uses the identical Rover engine). This wasn't one; it had four exhaust pipes from one side of the bonnet.
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 29 of 37: Frank Susca (Cafe) * Wed, Dec 24, 1997 (12:07) * 2 lines
Probably a Toyota or English Ford motor?
The Sevens can handle the weight Sam, it's the drivers' and passengers sizes or heights that can really limit your comfort. Part of what I said about Chapman's impractical side.
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 30 of 37: El Sam Blob (Afor) * Wed, Dec 24, 1997 (22:02) * 3 lines
Didn't see inside the bonnet.
I'm about 6' tall with a 41" waist and American size 15 shoe size.
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 31 of 37: Frank Susca (Cafe) * Fri, Dec 26, 1997 (15:07) * 1 lines
BIG!
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 32 of 37: El Sam Blob (Afor) * Fri, Dec 26, 1997 (22:57) * 1 lines
They don't call me Sam Blob for nothin'!
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 33 of 37: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Mon, Jan 5, 1998 (16:52) * 18 lines
Renault has a car that gets 72 mpg, can go 94 mph, seats 5, and is not a
gas-electric hybrid. It doesn't use spaceage materials (lots of aluminium),
or technology (lots of turbocharging). They had this car developed and then
put it under wraps. Greenpeace found out about it and set up a phony
organization dedicated to classic cars, that had offices, faxes, people in
suits, etc. Convinced Renault that they wanted some Renaults for a classic
car show and got access to the wearhouse that had classic cars and the
prototype. They then stole the prototype, and took it to a carshow in
another part of France, where they stole the real Renault display and
substituted a fake display highlighting the so called SMILE car, and invited
the automotive press. Renault chose not to sue Greenpeace but instead look
into manufacturing the SMILE car with Greenpeace.
Check out the SMILE car at:
www.greenpeace.org/~climate/smile/index.html
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 34 of 37: Frank Susca (Cafe) * Mon, Jan 5, 1998 (18:16) * 1 lines
Great info Terry! Typical?
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 35 of 37: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Mon, Jan 5, 1998 (19:56) * 4 lines
It's a great story. If someone finds a picture of this car on that website (I
haven't yet) please give me the url so I can take a look, I'm curious what this
car looks like. Is this an unlikely sounding chain of events or what? I mean,
greenpeace in the car business?
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 36 of 37: El Sam Blob (Afor) * Mon, Jan 5, 1998 (19:56) * 3 lines
Is it based on the Vera? That had some good publicity in the Eighties. I think it's a turbodiesel (i.e., not much U.S. sales & lots of trouble with emission regs) and they scrapped it at the end of the last oil crisis.
"General Motors is not in the business of making cars. General Motors is in the business of making money!" - Alfred Sloan (I think!)
Topic 22 of 40 [cars]: Unusual Cars: Good & Bad Ideas
Response 37 of 37: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Mon, Jan 5, 1998 (21:17) * 3 lines
I don't know if it's based on the Vera. What I wrote is about all I know about
it, in other words, very little. Makes a great story though.
cars conference 
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