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Topic 41 of 42: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center

Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (08:48) | Paul Terry Walhus (terry)

A pair of Jumbo Jets have crashed into both towers of the New York City
World Trade Center. It's being called a terrorist suicide mission. The
Pentagon is on fire and they're evacuating the White House.

783 responses total.

 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 1 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (09:01) * 72 lines 
 

NEW YORK — Two planes crashed into the upper floors of both World Trade
Center towers minutes apart today in what President Bush said was an
apparent terrorist attack, blasting fiery, gaping holes in the 110-story
buildings. There was no immediate word on deaths or injuries.

The president ordered a full-scale investigation to "hunt down the folks
who committed this act."

The twin disasters happened shortly before 9 a.m. EDT and then right
around 9 a.m. EDT.

In Washington, officials said the FBI was investigating reports of a plane
hijacking before the crashes.

Heavy black smoke billowed into the sky above the gaping holes in the side
of the 110-story twin towers, one of New York City's most famous
landmarks, and debris rained down upon the street, one of the city's
busiest work areas. When the second plane hit, a fireball of flame and
smoke erupted, leaving a huge hole in the glass and steel tower.

"Today we've had a national tragedy," Bush said. He called it "an apparent
terrorist attack."

Ira Furber, former NTSB spokesman, discounted the likelihood that it was
an accident.

"I don't think this is an accident," he said on CNN. "You've got
incredibly good visibility. No pilot is going to be relying on
navigational equipment."

"It's just not possible in the daytime," he added. "A second occurrence is
just beyond belief."

The towers were struck by terrorist bombers in February 1993, killing six
people and injuring more than 1,000 others.

All New York City-area airports were shut down, and several subway lines
were immediately shut down. Trading on Wall Street was suspended.

"The plane was coming in low and ... it looked like it hit at a slight
angle," said Sean Murtagh, a CNN vice president, the network reported.

"I was watching TV and heard a sonic boom," Jeanne Yurman told CNN. "The
side of the World Trade Center exploded. Debris is falling like leaflets.
I hear ambulances. The northern tower seems to be on fire."

Thousands of pieces of what appeared to be office paper came drifting over
Brooklyn, about three miles from the tower.

A senior government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the
agency is pursuing reports that one or both of the planes were hijacked
and that the crashes may have been the result of a suicide mission.

The source stressed that the reports are preliminary and officials do not
know the cause of the crashes.

"It certainly doesn't look like an accident," said a second government
official, also speaking on condition of anonymity.

In 1945, an Army Air Corps B-25, a twin-engine bomber, crashed into the
79th floor of the Empire State Building in dense fog.

In Sarasota, Fla., Bush was reading to children in a classroom at 9:05
a.m. when his chief of staff, Andrew Card, whispered into his ear. The
president briefly turned somber before he resumed reading. He addressed
the tragedy about a half-hour later.




from AP report


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 2 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (09:05) * 4 lines 
 

It is being reported that one of the towers has collapsed. The White
House and other national offices are being evacuated.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 3 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (09:34) * 7 lines 
 









 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 4 of 783: Minkee  (maryw) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (09:42) * 7 lines 
 
TO ALL OUR FRIENDS AT DROOL IN THE US

FROM YOUR FRIENDS IN AUSTRALIA

WE ARE THINKING AND PRAYING FOR YOU ALL DURING THIS HORRIBLE MOMENT IN HISTORY.

TAKE CARE ALL OF YOU!!! GOD BLESS ALL OF US!!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 5 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus  (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (09:42) * 4 lines 
 

Now, there's a report of another hijacked plane headed toward Washington DC.

Both World Trade Centers have totally collapsed!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 6 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus  (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (09:43) * 1 lines 
 
This is like the Pearl Harbor of the world's terrorists.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 7 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (10:00) * 26 lines 
 
Topic 1180 [current]: Terrorist attack on the World Trade Center
#84 of 98: Kim Bassett (kimage) Tue Sep 11 '01 (07:52) 26 lines

I've been watching ABC coverage through both collapses. Judging from the
commentary plus live pictures:

- There does not appear to have been a third plane impacting the WTC
towers. If there is a third plane, ABC hasn't mentioned it in
the last 30 minutes.

- For the first collapse, the top floors above the point of impact
began collapsing, the stress and failure cascading downwards all
the way to the bottom. The second collapse appeared to start
from the lower floors, upper floors dropping downwards.

- Neither tower toppled significantly to the side; there was worry
of a triage center being taken out in the second collapse, but
both towers *predominantly* slid downwards. No info about damage
or harm to adjacent buildings.

- One small plane confirmed hit the pentagon. Scattered talk of
a car bomb outside the State Department, including a smoke plume
visible in the background of shots of White House evacuations.

- No casualty figures as yet. The numbers are likely to be
horrifying, from the plane hijacks alone.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 8 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (10:01) * 10 lines 
 

From the NYT, reporting on Bush's statements:

Mr. Bush who was said to be on his way back from a visit from Sarasota,
Fla., to Washington has ordered that "the full resources of the federal
government" be used to carry out a full investigation to find out who was
responsible for the World Trade Center attacks.

"Terrorism against our country will not stand," he said, before ending by
leading a prayer for victims of the attacks.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 9 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (10:01) * 45 lines 
 

By Charles Babington
washingtonpost.com Staff Writer
Tuesday, September 11, 2001; 10:10 a.m.


Minutes after two airplanes crashed into New York City’s World Trade
Center towers this morning in a what appears to be the gravest terrorist
attack ever in America, a large airplane-caused explosion and fire took
place at the Pentagon and explosions were reported at the Capitol and the
State Department.

At about 10 a.m., one of the 110-story World Trade Center towers
collapsed, and the second tower collapsed about 30 minutes later.

The tragedies stunned the nation and prompted officials, fearing still
more attacks, to evacuate the Capitol, the White House, State Department
and other federal buildings. Flights were canceled at all major airports
in the nation.

At about 10:20 a.m., the Associated Press reported the a car bomb
explosion outside the State Department, senior law enforceement officials
said.

Shortly before the Pentagon fire ignited, President Bush called the New
York disasters "an apparent terrorist attack on our country." He hastily
departed from Florida, where he had scheduled an education speech, and
returned to Washington. Early details were sketchy, but the New York
attacks seemed certain to cause heavy losses of life and many injuries.

There were reports that an American Airlines 767 had been hijacked earlier
today on a scheduled flight from Boston to Los Angeles, and apparently was
one of the planes flown into the giant towers that dominate lower
Manhattan’s skyline. The second crash, which touched off a giant fireball
in one of the tower’s upper floors shortly after 9 a.m. EDT, took place as
many Americans watched live on television.

New York’s airports were quickly closed, the New York Stock Exchange was
evacuated, and millions of Americans watched in horror and disbelief as
news of the Pentagon fire soon followed.

In Florida, Bush pledged to use “the full resources of the federal
government government to help the victims and their families" and “to hunt
down and find those folks who committed these acts."



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 10 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (10:03) * 6 lines 
 
Topic 1180 [current]: Terrorist attack on the World Trade Center
#101 of 101: Gallatin (rickmoffat) Tue Sep 11 '01 (08:00) 3 lines

Big explosion at the London Stock Exchange? I'm getting all this via
super-slow web feeds, but we've got video footage of huge smoke plumes
there? Can anyone confirm? We got the footage off http://news.bbc.co.uk


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 11 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus  (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (10:04) * 1 lines 
 
This is like the Pearl Harbor of the world's terrorists.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 12 of 783: Mary Warren  (maryw) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (10:07) * 10 lines 
 
Terry

Where are you located? Are you safe?

I am in Sydney and watching CNN International and Fox News Cable. It is
now 11 am NY time (1 am 12 Sept/Wed Syd time) - they are reporting and
showing on screen - 2 Towers now collapsed (I watched the 2nd one
collapse!)

Am flabbergasted - what can one do?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 13 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus  (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (10:07) * 15 lines 
 
Topic 1180 [current]: Terrorist attack on the World Trade Center
#105 of 106: Colin Brayton (blindone) Tue Sep 11 '01 (08:02) 11 lines

I saw the second attack from an elevated subway station in Brooklyn.
The plane just veered into the building and the explosion shot through
the building. We all gasped, people were weeping, dude I gave spare
change to mutters, "Tragedy day ..." My friend Velma was working in the
South Tower of the WTC. I just pray that she has not returned from
Chicago today. Cannot reach her. Cell phone communications are out
here. The plume of smoke is blowing east and south across the river,
with fragments of debris shimmering in it: I thought at first it was a
fantastic flock of seagulls ... BBC (www.bbc.co.uk) is about the only
online news I can get ... I am going downtown Brooklyn to donate blood
... God help us.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 14 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus  (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (10:08) * 8 lines 
 

I'm in Austin, Texas, Mary, our airport is shut down. All planes in the
air have been ordered to land at the nearest airport, nationwide, not just
in Austin. I'm here with a bunch of folks at work watching Fox News. No
work is getting done today, or very little. The horror is mounting and
we're staying calm, but this is the worst tragedy in my lifetime in this
country.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 15 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus  (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (10:09) * 1 lines 
 
"What can one do?" Stay calm and pray.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 16 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus  (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (10:10) * 2 lines 
 
FAA confirms that there are several planes that are currently unaccounted
for (evidently hijacked). No telling where this thing is going.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 17 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus  (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (10:13) * 81 lines 
 
I got through to MSNBC. Definitely not new, but here's what they are
saying:

NEW YORK, Sept. 11 — Americans reeled in horror Tuesday as the worst
terrorist attack in U.S. history sent planes crashing into the World
Trade Center in New York, toppling the twin 110-story towers. An
explosion later rocked the Pentagon in Washington. The White House, the
Pentagon and the Capitol building were evacuated. Military jets
patrolled the skies above both cities. The FAA grounded all civilian
aircraft nationwide, but not before reports of another large aircraft
crashing in Western Pennsylvania. President Bush vowed to “hunt down
the folks who committed this act.”

THE FATE OF those in the twin skyscrapers was not immediately
known. Authorities had been trying to evacuate the thousands of people
who work in the twin towers, but many were thought to be trapped. “I
swear I’ve never seen anything like this,” said MSNBC’s Ashleigh
Banfield. “This whole place is like a complete war zone.”
At the Pentagon, eyewitnesses saw an aircraft crash into part
of the sprawling complex. Walls were later seen to have collapsed.
An earlier report of a car bomb exploding outside the State
Department was later denied.
In New York, the aircraft struck minutes apart, starting fires
and sending smoke billowing out of the skyscrapers. The top of the
south tower later collapsed onto the street below.
The first crash happened shortly before 9 a.m. ET.
MSNBC.com reporter Martin Wolk, who was inside one of the
towers, said the lights flickered and then a loud bang was heard.
People panicked and started to flee the building.
When they reached the lobby, smoke started to fill the building
and people could see debris falling and many cars outside were
damaged. “It was sheer pandemonium, people were screaming and crying,
afraid to go outside because of the falling debris,” Wolk said. “We
looked up and it looked like the top 20 floors were in flames.”
Another bystander described a barrage of debris raining down on
the sidewalk below.
Advertisement





Shortly after 9 a.m., a second aircraft was seen crashing
into the other tower. Broadcast cameras already watching the scene
filmed the second plane as it slammed into the tower and exploded in a
huge fireball.
A half hour later, President Bush made a brief statement to
reporters, calling the disaster a “national tragedy” and attributing it
to terrorists. He did not cite any specific terrorist groups but vowed
to “hunt down the folks who committed this act.”
U.S. military jets reportedly took to the skies to shoot down
any unidentified aircraft, and congressional leaders were taken to
secure locations. A plane was reported to have been circling the
Capitol building before the evacuation.
American Airlines later acknowledged that one of its flights
had been hijacked Tuesday morning shortly after leaving Boston en route
to Los Angeles.
In the wake of the crashes, New York airports and the Lincoln
Tunnel were closed as precautionary measures. The stock exchanges in
New York also did not open.
Large holes were visible in sides of the 110-story buildings.
The tops of the twin towers were obscured by the smoke.
Thousands of pieces of what appeared to be office paper came
drifting over Brooklyn, about three miles from the tower, one witness
said.


Click on the image for reports of the terrorism attacks.
In an earlier terrorist attack, the center was bombed on Feb.
26, 1993, killing six people and injured more than 1,000 others.
Terrorist Ramzi Yousef and three others were convicted of orchestrating
the attack. Three other indicted co-conspirators remain at large.
Traffic entering New York City from New Jersey was at a
standstill approaching the Holland Tunnel as motorists stood outside
their cars watching the fire.
Across the country, highrises like Chicago’s Sears Trade tower
were being evacuated as a precaution. Buildings were also being
evacuated in London.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 18 of 783: Mary Warren  (maryw) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (10:14) * 6 lines 
 
Terry

Our own Australian Prime Minister is in Washington DC. Am staying calm
but busy collecting news. Cannot get on to BBC.UK - for those Spring
readers who want a confirmation on the bombing in London.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 19 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (10:16) * 5 lines 
 

I'll post it as soon as I get it. Some of this stuff may be unconfirmed,
read all this with caution. I lot of wild stuff is floating around. I'll
post it all and you decide.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 20 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (10:18) * 49 lines 
 
rc3.org:

September 11, 2001 Part of the Pentagon has collapsed. There are reports
that Osama bin Laden warned the U.S. three weeks ago that we would suffer
an unprecedented attack. Still awaiting more details on this. ABC is
reporting that there was not a car bomb at the State Department after all.
The BBC is now reporting that F-16s have been sent to intercept a hijacked
plane that is headed for Washington, DC. This must be the plane mentioned
earlier. The plane from Pittsburgh that crashed in Somerset County is not
the plane that is being intercepted. The BBC is reporting that the plane
that crashed in Pennsylvania was a 767, not a 747. According to a
correspondent in Greece, I hear the following (none of this have I
confirmed myself): The first plane was a 747 from American Airlines
(capacity 158).

(This doesn't sound quite right, 747s hold more than that.
Perhaps this plane was a 737 or 767.) The second plane was a 767 from
United Airlines. (The BBC is reporting that the UA plane is a 737B.) The
plane that hit the Pentagon was a small passenger plane. Another 747 out
of Pittsburgh was hijacked, tailed by U.S. fighters, and crashed at
Somerset County Airport in Pennsylvania. This may be the plane that I
mentioned earlier as being hijacked. (Some are reporting that this plane
was shot down.) Both towers of the WTC have now collapsed. No idea
whether this was due to further explosions or loss of structural integrity
caused by the original explosions. The 911 control center for New York
City is (was?) in the World Trade Center. Needless to say, it's down.

Yet another plane has been hijacked and is reportedly headed toward
Washington DC. All international flights approaching the U.S. have been
diverted to Canada. Congressmen have been evacuated to an underground
bunker. I've heard many comparisons to Pearl Harbor at this point. Explain
to me again why we pump all that money into the NSA and CIA? How did we
have no idea that this was coming? A car bomb has exploded outside the
State Department. I've now heard from a number of sources that the second
tower collapsed completely after it was hit by a third plane (the second
to hit that tower in particular). This was just a rumor, there was no
third plane to hit the WTC. I'm finding it hard to get to online news
sites.

You can get a live audio stream from the BBC World Service at Yahoo
Broadcast, that's what I'm listening to. Latest news: all flights in the
U.S. are grounded, and all planes were ordered to land at the nearest
airport. One of the two towers of the WTC has collapsed (at least
partially). According to the news, there can be up to 100,000 people in
the WTC at any given time. Terrorists have attacked the World Trade
Center and Pentagon by deliberately crashing planes into them. One of the
planes that crashed into the WTC was a hijacked American Airlines 767 out
of Boston, I don't know about the others.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 21 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus  (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (10:19) * 26 lines 
 

From Indiatimes.com:

'Bin Laden warned of US attack'

LONDON: Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden warned three weeks ago that he and
his followers would carry out an unprecedented attack on US interests for
its support of Israel, an Arab journalist with access to him said on
Tuesday.

Abdel-Bari Atwan, editor of the London-based al-Quds al-Arabi newspaper
said Islamic fundamentalists led by Bin Laden was "almost
certainly" behind the attack of the World Trade Center in New York.

"It is most likely the work of Islamic fundamentalists. Osama bin Laden
warned three weeks ago that he would attack American interests in an
unprecedented attack, a very big one," Atwan told Reuters.

"Personally we received information that he planned very, very big attacks
against American interests. We received several warnings like this. We did
not take it so seriously, preferring to see what would happen before
reporting it."

Atwan has interviewed Bin Laden and maintains close contacts with his
followers.
( REUTERS )


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 22 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (10:27) * 3 lines 
 
NHK sez that CBS reports that 11 planes total have been hijacked, and four
are still whereabouts unknown.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 23 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (10:28) * 5 lines 
 

This topic has been linked to drool, geo and other conferences here
temporarily while this story is unfolding. It will be eventually
unlinked.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 24 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (10:30) * 7 lines 
 

FORT WORTH, Texas American Airlines confirmed today that it lost two
aircraft in tragic incidents this morning. American said the flights were
Flight 11, a Boeing 767 en route from Boston to Los Angeles with 81
passengers, nine flight attendants and two pilots; and Flight 77, a Boeing
757 operating from Washington Dulles to Los Angeles with 58 passengers, four
flight attendants and two pilots.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 25 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (10:32) * 7 lines 
 

This is something that we will all remember in future years, like when JFK
was shot, we'll remember where we were and what we were doing when this
happened. I was in my car heading to Austin on 183 listening to a sports
show when Bucky Goldbolt broke the news and I switched to the local news
station to hear more. I was coming up on North Lamar.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 26 of 783: Mary Warren  (maryw) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (10:33) * 9 lines 
 
11.28 AM NY Time/1.28 am (Wed 12 Sep)Sydney

Listening to AustBroadcastingCorp (AustBC) - a CNN reporter getting live
feed (can hear in the background). Reporting follows :

United Airlines NY to San Francisco has crashed.

in addition to those that were reported on the media earlier...
Washington to LAX and Boston to LAX.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 27 of 783: aishling  (aishling) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (10:34) * 5 lines 
 

I have been listening to our news in UK since this terrible news broke and
the London Stock Exchange and Canary Wharf have been evacuated as a
precautionary.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 28 of 783: Mary Warren  (maryw) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (10:39) * 5 lines 
 
11.36 AM NY Time/1.36 am (Wed 12 Sep)Sydney

AustBC is reporting that the Talliban is reported to have announced that
they will be holding press conference soon.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 29 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (10:51) * 1 lines 
 
Colin Powell time.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 30 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (10:55) * 11 lines 
 
An aside:

US attacks slam eurostocks; insurers hit, oil climbs
By Sophie Walker and Louise Ireland

LONDON, Sept 11 (Reuters) - A series of deadly attacks on U.S. landmark
buildings sent European stock markets into a nosedive on Tuesday, with
insurance shares taking the brunt of the pressure while investors scrambled
to scoop up oil stocks.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 31 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (11:03) * 1 lines 
 
Some street celebrations in Palestine.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 32 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus  (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (11:08) * 81 lines 
 
I got through to MSNBC. Definitely not new, but here's what they are
saying:

NEW YORK, Sept. 11 — Americans reeled in horror Tuesday as the worst
terrorist attack in U.S. history sent planes crashing into the World
Trade Center in New York, toppling the twin 110-story towers. An
explosion later rocked the Pentagon in Washington. The White House, the
Pentagon and the Capitol building were evacuated. Military jets
patrolled the skies above both cities. The FAA grounded all civilian
aircraft nationwide, but not before reports of another large aircraft
crashing in Western Pennsylvania. President Bush vowed to “hunt down
the folks who committed this act.”

THE FATE OF those in the twin skyscrapers was not immediately
known. Authorities had been trying to evacuate the thousands of people
who work in the twin towers, but many were thought to be trapped. “I
swear I’ve never seen anything like this,” said MSNBC’s Ashleigh
Banfield. “This whole place is like a complete war zone.”
At the Pentagon, eyewitnesses saw an aircraft crash into part
of the sprawling complex. Walls were later seen to have collapsed.
An earlier report of a car bomb exploding outside the State
Department was later denied.
In New York, the aircraft struck minutes apart, starting fires
and sending smoke billowing out of the skyscrapers. The top of the
south tower later collapsed onto the street below.
The first crash happened shortly before 9 a.m. ET.
MSNBC.com reporter Martin Wolk, who was inside one of the
towers, said the lights flickered and then a loud bang was heard.
People panicked and started to flee the building.
When they reached the lobby, smoke started to fill the building
and people could see debris falling and many cars outside were
damaged. “It was sheer pandemonium, people were screaming and crying,
afraid to go outside because of the falling debris,” Wolk said. “We
looked up and it looked like the top 20 floors were in flames.”
Another bystander described a barrage of debris raining down on
the sidewalk below.
Advertisement





Shortly after 9 a.m., a second aircraft was seen crashing
into the other tower. Broadcast cameras already watching the scene
filmed the second plane as it slammed into the tower and exploded in a
huge fireball.
A half hour later, President Bush made a brief statement to
reporters, calling the disaster a “national tragedy” and attributing it
to terrorists. He did not cite any specific terrorist groups but vowed
to “hunt down the folks who committed this act.”
U.S. military jets reportedly took to the skies to shoot down
any unidentified aircraft, and congressional leaders were taken to
secure locations. A plane was reported to have been circling the
Capitol building before the evacuation.
American Airlines later acknowledged that one of its flights
had been hijacked Tuesday morning shortly after leaving Boston en route
to Los Angeles.
In the wake of the crashes, New York airports and the Lincoln
Tunnel were closed as precautionary measures. The stock exchanges in
New York also did not open.
Large holes were visible in sides of the 110-story buildings.
The tops of the twin towers were obscured by the smoke.
Thousands of pieces of what appeared to be office paper came
drifting over Brooklyn, about three miles from the tower, one witness
said.


Click on the image for reports of the terrorism attacks.
In an earlier terrorist attack, the center was bombed on Feb.
26, 1993, killing six people and injured more than 1,000 others.
Terrorist Ramzi Yousef and three others were convicted of orchestrating
the attack. Three other indicted co-conspirators remain at large.
Traffic entering New York City from New Jersey was at a
standstill approaching the Holland Tunnel as motorists stood outside
their cars watching the fire.
Across the country, highrises like Chicago’s Sears Trade tower
were being evacuated as a precaution. Buildings were also being
evacuated in London.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 33 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (11:11) * 89 lines 
 
Terror attacks paralyze Washington, New York
By Shelley Emling and Marilyn Geewax

Cox News Service

Tuesday, September 11, 2001

WASHINGTON — An apparently coordinated series of terror attacks struck the
nation's capital and its largest city this morning, destroying both towers
of the World Trade Center in New York and shutting down most government
operations.

An airliner struck the north tower of the 110-story World Trade Center
about 8:45 a.m. EDT, followed about 18 minutes later by a second
apparently deliberate crash into the south tower. A little more than hour
later, the south tower collapsed, and the north tower folowed it.

In the capital, a fire forced the evacuation of the Pentagon, reportedly
after another aircraft struck the building. A car bomb explosion and fire
was also reported at the State Department, which was evacuated along with
the Capitol and the White House.

The Federal Aviation Administration suspended all aircraft takeoffs across
the country.

It was not immediately clear who was responsible for the attacks.
According to unconfirmed reports, a Palestinian group has claimed
responsibility for at least one of the attacks.

"There will be hell to pay in the weeks and months ahead," said Neil
Livingstone, a terrorism expert in Washington. "This basically amounts to
a declaration of war."

President Bush, visiting an elementary school in Sarasota, Fla., said,
"I've ordered that the full resources of the federal government go to help
the victims and their families and to conduct a full-scale investigation
to hunt down and to find those folks who committed this act. Terrorism
against our nation will not stand."

The sound of sirens on Capitol Hill added to the tension as vehicles
headed to emergencies in the city. Downtown streets were gridlocked as an
air of panic began to spread among workers who poured from buildings.

Smoke billowed from the Pentagon, just across the Potomac River from the
District of Columbia.

"I saw the tail of a large airliner. . . . It plowed right into the
Pentagon," said an Associated Press Radio reporter. "There is billowing
black smoke."

Shortly after the Capitol building was evacuated, Sen. John Kerry,
D-Mass., said there was an "unauthorized plane" in airspace in the
Washington area.

"People are trying to figure out where it is. That's all I can tell you
right now," Kerry said.

In New York, black smoke poured from the international landmark, and paper
and debris rained onto the streets.

By 9 a.m., thousands of people already were at work on the upper floors of
the World Trade Center. Casualties were impossible to determine
immediately, but were likely to number at least in the hundreds.

Ira Furman, a former spokesman for the National Transportation Safety
Board, said it was unlikely the acts were caused by pilot or navigational
error.

"It is beyond belief," he said. "Planes can come within a few miles of the
World Trade Center, but a pilot would never come this close."

One witness, Mary Cozza, said she heard a loud "boom" before seeing the
crash.

"I looked up and saw a plane that looked like it was flying too low," she
said. "It looked like it was aimed right at the World Trade Center. We saw
the crash. Shattered glass was pouring down. It didn't look like a giant
airliner. It didn't look like it was swerving out of control or anything."

The World Trade Center has been the target of terrorism before. In
February 1993 a terrorist bomb rocked the Manhattan skyscrapers.

The World Trade Center is one of the nation's most well-known structures
located in the heart of the U.S. financial district, one of the city's
most heavily populated areas. Many major financial and technology
companies are housed here and it's only a 10-minute walk from the U.S.
Stock Exchange. The stock exchange suspended trading just after the crash.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 34 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (11:17) * 10 lines 
 
cnn.com (hard to get to now):

AMERICA UNDER ATTACK World Trade Centers collapse after planes hit, 10,000
emergency workers head to scene Plane hits Pentagon, part of the Pentagon
collapses American, United both confirm losing two planes each Bush calls
trade center crashes terrorist act Federal buildings, United Nations
evacuated FAA grounds all U.S. flights, sends trans-Atlantic flights to
Canada Israel evacuates embassies U.S.-Mexico border closed Non-essential
NATO employees asked to leave Brussels HQ



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 35 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus  (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (11:18) * 66 lines 
 

NEW YORK (CNN) --
Terrorists struck the United States Tuesday morning in harrowing,
widespread attacks that included at least three commercial jet crashes
into significant buildings.

• In the first attack, a plane hit the north tower of the World Trade
Center in Manhattan shortly before 9 a.m., followed by another plane into
the second tower about 20 minutes later. Both towers later collapsed.

• About an hour later, a plane crashed into the Pentagon, part of which
later collapsed.

• American Airlines told CNN that it lost two planes in "tragic
accidents:" Flight 11 from Boston with 81 passengers and 11 crew aboard
and Flight 77 from Washington Dulles airport with 58 passengers and six
crew aboard. Both planes were en route to Los Angeles

• United Airlines Flight 93 airliner headed from Newark, New Jersey, to
San Francisco, crashed near Somerset, Pennsylvania -- police said initial
reports indicated no survivors. United also confirmed the crash of Flight
175 from Boston to Los Angeles.

• The Pentagon, the White House, the State Department, the Justice
Department, the Capitol, the CIA and all other government buildings in
Washington evacuated.

• President Bush cancelled an appearance in Florida to return to
Washington, calling the crashes "apparent terrorist attacks" and "a
national tragedy."

• In the first ever national ground stop of aircraft, all flights
nationwide have been stopped at their departure airports.

• All international flights were diverted to Canada.

• Mullah Abdul Salam Zaeef, the Taliban ambassador to Pakistan, said in
reaction to the news of the terror attacks that "we want to tell the
American children that Afghanistan feels your pain and we hope that the
courts find justice."

• In New York, more than 10,000 rescue personnel rushed to the scene. The
entire downtown area of Manhattan was evacuated as far north as
Rockefeller Center, according to an official at an emergency command post.

• Israel has evacuated all its missions around the world.

• The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta was evacuated.
CDC was preparing bioterrorism teams in case they become necessary.

• Philadelphia landmarks were also evacuated.

• In Chicago, the Sears Tower was evacuated; United Nations in New York
evacuated.

• The New York Port Authority said it had closed all bridges and tunnels
into the city.

• U.S. stock markets were closed after the New York attacks.

• NATO sent home all non-essential personnel from its Brussels, Belgium,
headquarters.

• Border between the United States and Mexico closed.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 36 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (11:25) * 45 lines 
 
Nation: United plane crashes near Pittsburgh; 3 other flights missing





The Associated Press


PITTSBURGH (September 11, 2001 11:59 a.m. EDT) - A United Airlines plane crashed Tuesday morning just north of the Somerset County Airport. United said it was also "deeply concerned" about another plane, Flight 175, a Boeing 767, which was bound from Boston to Los Angeles.

American Airlines said Tuesday it had lost two planes with a total 156
people aboard, Agence-France Presse reported.

The United Boeing 757 was enroute from Newark, N.J. to San Francisco.

The United plane crashed about 10 a.m. about 8 miles east of Jennerstown,
according to county 911 dispatchers, WPXI-TV in Pittsburgh reported.

"It shook the whole station," said Bruce Grine, owner of Grine's Service
Center in Shanksville, about two and one-half miles from the crash.
"Everybody ran outside, and by that time the fire whistle was blowing."

United identified the plane as Flight 93. The airline did say how many
people were aboard the flight.

On behalf of the airline CEO James Goodwin said: "The thoughts of everyone
at United are with the passengers and crew of these flights. Our prayers
are also with everyone on the ground who may have been involved.

"United is working with all the relevant authorities, including the FBI,
to obtain further information on these flights," he said.

The Somerset County airport, about 80 miles southeast of Pittsburgh, in a
small, rural facility that does not handle such aircraft.

Because of the attacks, the Federal Aviation Administration had ordered
all departing flights canceled nationwide, and any planes already in the
air were to land a the nearest airport. The plane crashed shortly after
the order was issued.

The crash came the same morning that terrorists crashed two planes into
the World Trade Center in New York City and the twin 110-story towers
collapsed. A plane also hit the Pentagon in Washington



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 37 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (11:26) * 69 lines 
 
By BETH GARDINER, Associated Press


LONDON (September 11, 2001 12:02 p.m. EDT) - Terrorist strikes in the
United States quickly reached a global audience Tuesday, with leaders
around the world watching live coverage of an aircraft hitting the World
Trade Center.

Audiences were transfixed by the awful images from New York, where both
World Trade Center towers collapsed.

Key indexes sank on world stock markets and some European airlines
canceled flights to the United States and recalled planes already in the
air.

Russian President Vladimir Putin expressed his condolences to the American
people over the terrorist attacks, calling the "terrible tragedies," the
Kremlin press service said.

"This mass terrorism is the new evil in our world today," said Prime
Minister Tony Blair, who canceled a speech at a trade union conference.
"It is perpetrated by fanatics who are utterly indifferent to the sanctity
of human life, and we the democracies of this world are going to have to
come together and fight it together."

President Jacques Chirac of France, in a nationally televised statement,
called the attacks in the United States "monstrous" and expressed his
solidarity with the American people.

"France has just learned of these monstrous attacks, there is no other
word for it, that have hit America," Chirac said from Rennes, in the
western region of Brittany.

Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat and his top aides followed the events at
his seaside office in Gaza City, gathered around a TV set.

"I send my condolences to the president, the government and the people for
this terrible incident," Arafat said. "We are completely shocked. It's
unbelievable."

In Berlin, Foreign Ministry officials huddled in a crisis meeting, and
Parliament's vice speaker Anke Fuchs told lawmakers a "terrible
catastrophe" had happened.

Virtually all German TV channels switched to live coverage. "This is pure
mass murder," one commentator said.

Scandinavian Airlines System, SAS, rerouted three airplanes bound for New
York and one for Washington from Norway, Denmark and Sweden.

Flights to the United States were suspended from Portugal, and the Belgian
airline recalled two flights on the way to the United States, diverted
others to Canada and canceled all planned flights to the United States.

In Thailand, Suranand Vejjajiva, a spokesman for the office of Prime
Minister Thaksin Shinawatra said they were watching the news in disbelief.

A spokesman for Philippine President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo said: "The
president has been monitoring the events since an hour ago and she
condemns what is obviously the worst terrorist attack on a leader of
civilized society."

Broadcasters around the world broke into programming to show images of the
disaster.

"It's incredible. I thought I was watching a Hollywood movie," said Hong
Kong school teacher Doris Tang.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 38 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (11:27) * 13 lines 
 
Agence France-Presse


MOSCOW (September 11, 2001 12:15 p.m. EDT) - Russian President Vladimir
Putin told President Bush on Tuesday that the terrorist attacks on New
York and Washington "must not go unpunished", the Interfax news agency
reported.

"The series of barbaric acts directed against innocent people fills us
with indignation and revolt," said Putin in a telegram to Bush.

"Such inhuman acts must not go unpunished," he said.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 39 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (11:30) * 51 lines 
 
(September 11, 2001 11:18 a.m. EDT) - Timeline of U.S. Attacks

- Plane crashes into tower of World Trade Center in lower Manhattan,
shortly before 9 a.m. Eastern.

- Second plane crashes into the second tower of the World Trade Center,
shortly after 9 a.m. Eastern.

- President Bush, in Sarasota, Florida, calls the crashes "an apparent
terrorist attack" and a "national tragedy."

- An aircraft crashes near Pentagon, just outside of Washington D-C, in
Northern Virginia, about an hour after the attacks in New York.

- Government buildings in Washington, including the Capitol and the White
House, are evacuated with officials citing a credible threat of a
terrorist attack.

- The Federal Aviation Administration shuts down all aircraft takeoffs
nationwide.

- Shortly after 10 a.m. Eastern, one World Trade Center tower in New York
collapses, about an hour after being hit by plane.

- American Airlines says one of the planes that crashed into the Trade
Center was American Airlines Flight 11, hijacked after takeoff from Boston
en route to Los Angeles.

- Senior law enforcement officials say car bomb explodes outside of State
Department in Washington, D-C. Federal protective services later denies
car bomb attack occurred.

- Financial markets suspend trading in the wake of the attacks.

- Officials at Somerset County Airport say a large plane crashes in
western Pennsylvania, about 80 miles southeast of Pittsburgh, at about
10:00 a.m.

- The second tower of the World Trade Center collapses at 10:28 a.m.
Eastern.

- Fourth explosion rocks the collapsed remains of the World Trade Center,
at about 10:38 a.m.

- Authorities across the country go on alert, tightening security at
strategic facilities and evacuating high-profile buildings. U.S. monuments
and museums in Washington DC are closed.

- Securities and Exchange Commission says all financial markets are closed
for the day.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 40 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (11:50) * 3 lines 
 

Dan Rather reports Bush is going to make a statement from an Air Force Base
in Louisiana in a few minutes.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 41 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (11:51) * 15 lines 
 

All 4 flights that crashed were apparently bound for California. When did
the airlines first realize that something was wrong? The plane from Boston
that crashed into the WTC was bound for Los Angeles.

Topic 1180 [current]: Terrorist attack on the World Trade Center
#199 of 199: Jerry (jmcarlin) Tue Sep 11 '01 (09:47) 6 lines


CNN says 4 plans lost/missing: 2 American and 2 united. They said
that they *think* that one of them might be one that hit the
Pentagon.

CNN is also reporting that bin Laden is increasingly being blamed.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 42 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (11:51) * 7 lines 
 

Salon confirms military is at Delta.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2001/09/11/bombings/index.html


There is no higher military alert than Delta.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 43 of 783: Liz K  (ekelley) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (12:04) * 8 lines 
 

I'm on Long Island, 40 miles east of the city...was at work when this
happened. several of my friends work in NYC, one of them in 7 World
Trade, a building next to tower 2. i'm so scared right now... how could
anyone do something like this?! 10K people work(ed) in each of those
towers, not counting the tourists, people on the streets, etc. i feel
sick.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 44 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (12:09) * 1 lines 
 
I hope your friends are ok Liz.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 45 of 783: Charlotte Bridges  (Charlotte) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (12:10) * 8 lines 
 

People have been comparing this to Pearl Harbor. Most of us were not born
at the time of that event. The feeling today's events conjures in me is
the fear I lived through in 1962 during the Cuban missile crisis. At that
time, only one man stood between us and WWIII. If we could trace these
attacks to one country, we would now be at war. And I doubt that even JFK
could prevent it.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 46 of 783: Charlotte Bridges  (Charlotte) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (12:11) * 1 lines 
 
Incidentally, 45-50 thousand people work in the two WTC buildings...not 10K.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 47 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (12:18) * 8 lines 
 

unidentified source:

Friend of mine in Scotland, who is monitoring a lot of news feeds and has a
bunch of friends in US military bases, is giving me info that I can't find
_anywhere_ else- he claims that 12 (!) planes are still en route to the US,
not all over the Atlantic, and that are not responding to hails.
Anyone know anything about this?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 48 of 783: Charlotte Bridges  (Charlotte) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (12:19) * 1 lines 
 
Incidentally, 45-50 thousand people work in the two WTC buildings...not 10K.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 49 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (12:21) * 4 lines 
 

I think I heard somewhere that 55,000 or so were killed in the Vietnam
war, the toll here is going to be horrorific.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 50 of 783: Liz K  (ekelley) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (12:26) * 8 lines 
 

yes, charlotte..what I meant was 10K per tower in just the offices,
minimum capacity. full capacity is closer to 20-25K per tower. it
doesn't matter the toll; one life is too much.

thanks, terry. I'm praying for all who have friends or relatives in
downtown.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 51 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (12:40) * 6 lines 
 

Colin Powell said:

"A great tragedy has struck our country and it will not affect the
nature of our society,'' he said. ``We'll find out who's responsible
for this and bring them to justice.''


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 52 of 783: Charlotte  (Charlotte) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (12:48) * 7 lines 
 

Agreed, Liz. Sorry I misunderstood. Also sorry my post appeared twice.
Must have been cause I "refresh"-ed.

Terry, thank you for making this site available when it is impossible to
get news elsewhere.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 53 of 783: Maggie  (sociolingo) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (13:00) * 15 lines 
 

Yes, Terry, thanks for the email about the topic ..I'm in the UK, we
turned on the TV just after the first plane hit and have been following
the news since. Our prayers and thoughts are with all those concerned and
I hope that my friends on Spring get good news about people they know.

In the City of London the Stock Exchange closed, and several major
buildings were evacuated and the City closed. All US banks and
institutions here are on high alert.

There were reports an hour or so ago about another plane crash in
Pittsburg which appeared to be related. Also a report of another hijack
plane heading for Washington ..... sorry I don't have any details
...anyone else have any news??



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 54 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (13:03) * 10 lines 
 

In Hawaii, on the Bis Island, all schools are closed as is the airport
(throughout the state, actually). On Oahu, all military personnel are to
report to their stations, Pearl Harbor all ships staffed. Arizona
Memorial closed.

This is ghastly. Beyond anything Hollywood could dream up. Be calm, stay
home, donate blood if you can, (even call for it here) and PRAY. Thanks
Terry!



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 55 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (13:03) * 144 lines 
 
There's news of this above in this topic.

The other hijacked plane went down, it was the same plane that went down
in Pittsburgh.

“I JUST SAW the building I work in come down,” said businessman
Gabriel Ioan, shaking in shock outside City Hall a cloud of smoke and ash
from the World Trade Center behind him. “I just saw the top of Trade Two
come down.”
MSNBC.com producer Steve Johnson, standing about six blocks from
the towers in lower Manhattan, was also an eyewitness to the collapse.
“About five minutes before the tower fell you could see people jumping
from the upper floors. I watched six either fall or jump ... The police
rolled up [in] vans. Suddenly the top of [the tower] just shattered into
tens of thousands of pieces. You could see the walls peel away. The whole
thing just disappeared. Then the smoke came up. The cops started yelling,
“Get back! Run! Get away!” I ran inside a hotel, and it went black outside
because of the dust.”
Nearby a crowd mobbed a man on a pay phone, screaming at him to get
off the phone so that they could call relatives. Dust and dirt flew
everywhere. Ash was 2 to 3 inches deep in places. People wandered dazed
and terrified.
“I was in the World Financial Center looking out the window,” said
one woman. “I saw the first plane and then 15 minutes later saw the other
plane just slam into the World Trade Center.”
Firefighter Jimmy Grillo, with Ladder 24, had blood running down
his face from an injury to his nose. Grillo was in the lobby of the World
Trade Center after the first blast and when the second blast came, he was
trapped in the debris. “We crawled in the debris toward the light….
There’s a bunch of guys still trapped in there,” Grillo told MSNBC.com’s
Johnson.

‘PEOPLE SCREAMING ... DIVING FOR COVER’
Another eyewitness, AP newsman Dunstan Prial, described a strange
sucking sound from the Trade Center buildings after the first building
collapsed.
“Windows shattered. People were screaming and diving for cover.
People walked around like ghosts, covered in dirt, weeping and wandering
dazed.”
“It sounded like a jet or rocket,” said Eddie Gonzalez, a postal
worker at a post office on West Broadway. “I looked up and saw a huge
explosion. I didn’t see the impact. I just saw the explosion.”
Morning commuters heading into Manhattan were stranded as the
Lincoln Tunnel was shut down to incoming traffic. Many left their cars and
stood on the ramp leading to the tunnel, staring in disbelief at the thick
cloud of smoke pouring from the top of the two buildings.
On the streets of Manhattan, people stood in groups talking quietly
or watching on television at ground-level network studios.


Terror attack on the U.S.


• Main story
• MSNBC's Wolk: On the scene in Manhattan
• Witnesses describe terror in the towers
• World reacts with horror
• Markets, airports, U.S. border shut after terror
• Newsweek: An icon destroyed
• Exodus in Washington
• Live video coverage
• Discuss the attacks on MSNBC's bulletin board





Joan Goldstein, communications project leader for The Associated
Press, was on a bus from New Jersey at about 8:50 a.m. when she saw “smoke
pouring out of the World Trade Center building. We said, ‘Oh, my God! The
World Trade Center’s on fire!”
Perhaps 10 minutes later, “All of a sudden, there was an orange
plume, a huge explosion. It shot out the back of the building. Everybody
on the bus was just moaning and gasping,” said Goldstein, who wept and
trembled as she spoke.
The plume was from the second plane, but she didn’t see the plane
because of the thick smoke.
She tried to call friends who work there, but couldn’t get through.
“It was the most horrible thing I’ve ever seen in my life,” said
Goldstein.

GIVING BLOOD
At St. Vincent’s hospital in Greenwich Village, people waited in
long lines to give blood. They were taken according to blood type.
Hundreds of donors — perhaps as many as a thousand — looked like a
tapestry of New York citizenry.
“There are all kinds of people — young and old, black and white,
students and professionals waiting to give blood,” said Harry Barandes, a
graduate student at New York University.
Ambulances continued to arrive intermittently. The shock on
people’s faces was shaken free only by the sirens that blared in the
background. Meanwhile, volunteers wandered among those waiting in line,
asking if anyone was hungry or thirsty.
“There are really kind citizens passing out food and water,” said
Barandes. “The outpouring of goodwill is amazing.”
Further from the disaster scene in upper Manhattan signs went up
that blood drives had begun.

SURREAL SCENE, EERY CALM
‘There’s a huge smell of char in the air. People are walking with masks,
with their shirts off. People trying to get out [of the area] any way.
People are crying, watching in disbelief. [It’s] total shock.’ — MICHELLE
PRELI MSNBC.com producer In Brooklyn, across the East River from
Manhattan, “the situation is chaos,” MSNBC.com producer Michelle Preli
reported. “The Manhattan Bridge and Brooklyn Bridge are just full of
people covered in white ash. There’s a huge smell of char in the air.
People are walking with masks, with their shirts off. People trying to get
out [of the area] any way. People are crying, watching in disbelief.
[It’s] total shock. It seems all the medical units, ambulances fire
services from Brooklyn [have been called in].”
Although the city itself is in shock, it hasn’t really reached
uptown Manhattan yet. On the Upper West Side, where you could see police
helicopters standing in the sky like sentinels along the Hudson River, it
is all eerily calm.
“There are people eating in the restaurants,” said Andras Szanto, a
staff member at Columbia University. “It is a glorious sunny day — after a
rainstorm of biblical proportions last night — and this perfect fall day
makes it even more surreal.
“At first sight everything seems normal,” Szanto continued. “Then
you notice strangers hudddled around radios, students gazing at TVs in the
cafes, lines at the bank for cash.”
A sign on a Starbucks coffee shop says, “Due to the terrorist
attack we are closed today.”
“A homeless man is reciting the list of the day’s unspeakable
horrors,” said Szanto. “There are small strange differences that translate
the larger horror into minute changes: For the first time, for example,
the majestic gates [protecting the campus] of Columbia University have
been closed shut.”

CROWDS STREAMING ON FOOT
‘The mass of the city, this huge population, had to get out of the city
and they seemed to be doing it very matter of factly.’ — PRELI
Five hour after the towers collapsed people were still streaming
on foot across all levels of the Manhattan Bridge as they left the
disaster area.
“What was most amazing was how calm people were,” said MSNBC.com’s
Preli, who had been in her car just blocks from the disaster as splinters
of debris rained down looking oddly like confetti.
“Maybe everyone was just in shock. But the mass of the city, this
huge population, had to get out of the city and they seemed to be doing it
very matter of factly.”

The Associated Press contributed to this report.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 56 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (13:03) * 1 lines 
 
German stock exchange threatened by bomb attack. They are closing.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 57 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (13:04) * 3 lines 
 
“THERE HAVE BEEN the most terrible, shocking events taking place in the United States of America within the last couple of hours,”
British Prime Minister Tony Blair told union leaders in Brighton, southern England. “We can only imagine the terror and carnage there and the many, many innocent people who have lost their lives.”
Blair, who had been due to deliver a key policy speech, cut short his visit and said he wanted to return immediately to London to monitor the unfolding events. He sent his deepest condolences to Bush and the people of America.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 58 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (13:05) * 43 lines 
 

“This mass terrorism is the new evil in our world today. It is
perpetrated by fanatics who are utterly indifferent to the sanctity of
life,” he said.
Russian President Vladimir Putin described the attack as a terrible
tragedy, according to Kremlin spokesman Alexei Gromov, and convened a
special meeting of his defense and security officials. Putin also offered
his condolence to the United States.
France’s president, Jacques Chirac, in a live televised address,
condemned the attacks and expressed his solidarity with the American
people.
Advertisement





“France has just learned of these monstrous attacks — there is no
other word for it — that have hit America,” Chirac said from Rennes, in
the western region of Brittany.
In Berlin, Foreign Ministry officials huddled in a crisis meeting,
and Parliament’s vice speaker, Anke Fuchs, told lawmakers a “terrible
catastrophe” had happened.
Virtually all German TV channels switched to live coverage. “This
is pure mass murder,” one commentator said.
German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder convened an unprecedented
meeting of his security council, and air traffic authorities said all
European flights to the United States had been suspended.
The council meets rarely and is the government’s main body in times
of crisis. Besides Schroeder, it includes the foreign, defense and
interior ministers and several others.

MIDEAST REACTS
Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat and his top aides followed the
events at his seaside office in Gaza City, gathered around a TV set.
“We completely condemn this serious operation. ... We were
completely shocked. It’s unbelievable, unbelievable, unbelievable.”
An anonymous caller told Abu Dhabi television earlier on Tuesday
that a radical Palestinian group was responsible for the attacks, but the
group later denied any involvement.
Israeli Defense Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer told Israel’s Army
Radio it was “simply a tragedy.”



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 59 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (13:06) * 10 lines 
 

The Pittsburgh plane crash is the one they believe was also headed for
Washington DC, with some speculating that it might have either the Capitol
(building) or White House as its target. How they could come to that, I'll
never know. Two planes were targeted at the WTC (one at each tower). The
Pentagon is an enormous building (sq ft-wise).

All the planes (4) had California as their destination which would give
them the maximum amount of fuel any aircraft would have onboard.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 60 of 783: Eliz  (loveliz) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (13:11) * 13 lines 
 

Hi, just heard that a passenger from the PA crash had a cell phone in the
bathroom and reported that they were being hijacked..."this is not a
hoax". guess not.

Also heard that there were 6-8 planes in the air that would be allowed to
land at the Nashville airport.

My daughter's fiance's sister is an intern at St. Vincents. She is alive.
Just heard that there were over 100 victims there, 2 dead, but I had heard
earlier that the vestibule was stacked with fatal burn victims. Hope that
was a rumor. love,Eliz



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 61 of 783: Tobias Schaefer  (ToSch) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (13:11) * 9 lines 
 

All the German and European people want to express their condolence to the
people of the United States!

Our prayers are with the victims and their families!

God bless you!

Your Tobias


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 62 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (13:23) * 10 lines 
 

From the eyewitness reports on the BBC it appears that the second
plane flew slowly and directly into the south tower of the WTC. Its
likely that the terrorists flew the planes.

CNN is talking about the lead time that air traffic controllers had that
the planes were off course. One made a sharp turn at Albany and headed
south. They are also talking about the tapes of the controllers trying to
talk to the planes. Just speculation right now - the tapes are not yet
available.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 63 of 783: BlackB  (BlackB) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (13:24) * 8 lines 
 

My thoughts and prayers are with those whose families are affected by
these tragedies. All German TV channels do reports now. Something however
disturbs me in some way: in the first chapter of Tom Clancy's novel
"Executive Orders" a plane crashes into the capitol and kills everyone
inside. Seems like the wrong people read that book....

BlackB


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 64 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (13:27) * 63 lines 
 

BlackB, I've had the same thoughts about giving the truly warped mentally
bad ideas for their terrorism in books and movies.

FCC, federal agencies shut down after terrorist attacks

Along with most other federal agencies, the FCC has closed its
offices and sent its employees home in the wake of apparent
terrorist attacks this morning in New York City, Washington, DC, and
elsewhere. The FCC has issued no emergency declaration nor other
special instructions to the Amateur Radio community. The ARRL has
advised amateurs to stay alert to instructions from local
authorities. President George W. Bush has announced that the US
military is on high alert in the US and abroad.

US air traffic was shut down after two airliners struck the twin
towers of the 110-story World Trade Center in New York City this
morning within a short time of each other. The building's towers
partially collapsed in the wake of the collisions. An aircraft
subsequently crashed into the Pentagon, and another aircraft crashed
near Pittsburgh, reportedly after being hijacked. American Airlines
and United Airlines both have acknowledged that they have lost
planes this morning. More than 260 died in the crashes. Thousands
were believed injured in New York City; there's no estimate on the
number killed.

New York City-Long Island Section Emergency Coordinator Tom
Carrubba, KA2D, said there has been no request for any Amateur Radio
Emergency Service response at this time, although hams have been
requested to assist the American Red Cross. New York City's
emergency management offices are located in the World Trade Center.
He said he was alerting all amateurs, especially ARES and Radio
Amateur Civil Emergency Service personnel, to get prepared and to
stand by. Carrubba said he's in the process of setting up a command
channel on a linked repeater system that will cover the area from
New York City into Long Island's Suffolk County. Kenneth Goetz,
N2SQW, reports New York State RACES is operational on 3.993.5 and
7.248 MHz handling emergency and governmental-type traffic. He asked
amateurs to avoid these frequencies.

In the Washington, DC, area, Virginia SEC Tom Gregory, N4NW, says
Virginia ARES has been put on alert but has not yet been activated.
''I've asked everyone to monitor the emergency frequencies and to
keep a full tank of gas.'' He said the attack on Washington has
resulted in a massive traffic jam as workers in DC attempt to leave
the capital; cellular telephone communication was
next-to-impossible. While no emergency nets are in operation yet,
Gregory said all repeaters would be available as well as 7.243 MHz
and 3.947 MHz on HF.

Virginia RACES reportedly has been activated at the state emergency
operations center at Virginia State Police headquarters in Richmond
as a precautionary measure.

The FCC's Riley Hollingsworth today suggested that the amateur
community remain calm but ready. He invited amateurs monitoring any
suspicious radio activity to contact him, and he will relay relevant
information to the FCC duty team. He advised monitors to tape such
radio traffic, if possible.

Should a state of war be declared, Amateur Radio would not
automatically be shut down. This requirement was eliminated prior to
the Gulf War.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 65 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (13:38) * 14 lines 
 
first chapter of Tom Clancy's novel "Executive Orders"

The kamikaze plane attack on the Capitol Building was the plot of the book
before that one: Debt of Honor. The pilot was part of the plan, which took
out the entire government.

You don't need eyewitness reports on BBC. The second plane attacking the
WTC is on video on every news channel. You could probably have watched it
live, just as you could watch both towers crumble.

It is very likely the terrorists took over flying the planes as no US
pilot - even with a gun pointed at his/her head - would steer into any
occupied building.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 66 of 783: Rebecca Carson  (Becka) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (13:53) * 12 lines 
 
Karen: my Mom mentioned the book this morning. Ominous.

I cannot explain my grief and sadness. My thoughts are with all those
people, so, so many lives that are forever changed.

I can't get out of my head that some people actually saw the horrified
faces of those passengers in those hijacked planes - waiting to die in
vain.

And all those people who went to work and never came back.

God bless us all.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 67 of 783: Beth  (Bethanne) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (14:04) * 12 lines 
 

I'm in Atlanta. The area around CNN Center which is in downtown Atlanta,
has been sealed off and all public access to CNN Center itself has been
stopped. I guess as lots of the the world gets it global/US news coverage
news via CNN, it is a facility the authorities don't want messed with.

All malls, schools and universities here etc are closed.

At 3pm Eastern, 10-12 international flights are still in-bound to the US
and have been given clearance to land. They are all from the Pacific Rim
countries in bound to West Coast Cities.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 68 of 783: Beth  (Bethanne) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (14:09) * 5 lines 
 

President Bush just landed at Straegic Airforce Command in Nebraska. So
it appears the President and his advisors, are not going to orchestrate a
response to this catastrophe from the White House.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 69 of 783: Tobias Schaefer  (ToSch) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (14:12) * 3 lines 
 
German TV Broadcasting stopped for 15 Minutes!!!

" A moment of silence for our Brothers and Sisters in the USA!!!"


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 70 of 783: Beth  (Bethanne) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (14:19) * 1 lines 
 



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 71 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (14:41) * 6 lines 
 

Inbound planes from the Orient are being allowd to land in Honolulu if
they have gone beyond the point of no return, but with a fighter escort
from Hickam AF Base. Nothing is outbound. Even the tour planes are
grounded. Nothing is in the air!



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 72 of 783: Laura T  (LauraT) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (14:42) * 12 lines 
 

More stuff about the cellphone call, from an AP News story:

"An emergency dispatcher in Westmoreland County, Pa., received a cell
phone call at 9:58 a.m. from a man who said he was a passenger locked in
the bathroom of United Flight 93, said dispatch supervisor Glenn Cramer.

"We are being hijacked, we are being hijacked!" Cramer quoted the man as
saying. The man told dispatchers the plane "was going down. He heard some
sort of explosion and saw white smoke coming from the plane and we lost
contact with him," Cramer said."



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 73 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (14:42) * 2 lines 
 
So it appears the President and his advisors, are not going to orchestrate a response to this catastrophe from the White House.
No. The book on these types of situations calls for moving the president, et al, around to *secure* locations. Unfortunately, our wonderfully free press is publicizing all the known locations for government backup ops. Why don't they just give the addresses?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 74 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (14:43) * 1 lines 
 
The airports are closed until noon tomorrow BTW.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 75 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (14:47) * 1 lines 
 
Thanks Tobias and all who have expressed condolences. Actually we are all one little world. We need to relearn the art of getting along on a tiny planet. This American appreciates your concern very much!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 76 of 783: Laura   (LauraMM) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (14:48) * 4 lines 
 
Why don't they just give the addresses?
I know! Geez, here they are saying he's in a secret location, in NEBRASKA??? hello????

They evacuated all of Boston today. The one question I ask, that no one an answer is HOW THE HELL DID HIJACKERS GET PAST SECURITY AT LOGAN????????????? (Makes one wonder about the security personnel at the airport now?)


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 77 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (14:49) * 1 lines 
 
Karen, exactly so. The set the plane down and suddenly we all knew exactly where he was! I hate that!!! The media needs to learn some responsibility!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 78 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (15:06) * 19 lines 
 
stratfor.com:

The Intelligence Failure
1745 GMT, 010911

By George Friedman

As of this moment, what is clear is that a substantial number of civilian aircraft were hijacked this morning by pilots with sufficient ability to maneuver those multi-engine aircraft into collisions with major buildings. The flights originated at a number of airports. Each incident required the presence of at least one and probably more hijackers, each prepared to die in the attack.

Mounting an attack of this sort is not simple. In the case of the World Trade Center, the collapse of the towers indicates massive delayed explosions. This means either the planes were loaded with explosives or that massive explosive charges were planted in the buildings to go off later. This is supposition, but a secondary explosion is a necessary factor for explaining the collapse.

This means many individuals had to be involved in the operation. There had to be a coordinated effort spanning several continents, timed to occur at roughly the same time. At best guess, dozens of people had to be involved. Messages had to flow, coded or otherwise. Yet no human intelligence sources appear to have been among or near the conspirators. No significant messages were intercepted or decoded.

For U.S. intelligence to have missed an operation of this magnitude indicates one of two things. First, the competence of U.S. intelligence is overrated or the willingness of policymakers to heed warnings has declined. In either case, the system is badly broken. Alternatively, the sophistication of terrorist counter-intelligence has improved to such an extent that the prior level of expertise bought to bear is simply no longer sufficient.

Whether we are facing a decline in U.S. intelligence capability or an increase in counter-intelligence blocking the United States, Sept. 11, 2001, will go down as one of the major intelligence failures in U.S. history.

George Friedman is the founder and chariman of STRATFOR.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 79 of 783: Laura T  (LauraT) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (15:15) * 18 lines 
 
From salon.com

Sam Skinner, former transportation secretary under George Bush Sr., directed a "security enhancement task force" after Pan-Am flight 103 was shot down in 1988 over Lockerbie, Scotland, killing 270 people.

I'm looking back on my experience after Pan Am flight 103. We created offices for security in several departments and we enhanced the methods at every airport, so I'm very, very surprised that they were able to accomplish this. The fact that they could get through three airports on four flights without anyone picking it up, shows that this was a very well-organized attack -- probably with some inside help.


We've concentrated most of our time and energy on international aircraft. We focused on that threat because they may have been coming in from international airports where security was lax, or going to international locations, in which it would be easier to hide people who would profile as terrorists.

So the fact that four domestic flights were hijacked is entirely shocking. I don't know of any scenario that allowed for this. This is not an amateur performance. It must have had support from strong organizations or governments.

You would have had to have at least four inside people, at airports with access to planes with full fuel loads. You'd have to have them plant weapons at the same moment without being detected. And I find it hard to believe that any American pilot would deliberately fly into the building, so I also have to assume that they managed to get an experienced pilot on board.

The timing of it is also amazing. All the planes were close to their targets but the crashes occurred at around the same time.

This was very well-executed, and as a result, security measures as we know them today will be enhanced substantially. What that will be is too early to tell. But there will a lot of money spent on devices; I also think there will a higher scrutiny of employees and of cargo. You can get pretty draconian, and I think we'll see that whole new level of scrutiny. This is different than what we've ever seen in the past. This isn't just blowing up airplanes, this is using airplanes as a tool of death.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 80 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (15:17) * 34 lines 
 
Covering the Attack

An Eyewitness Speaks

By Ed Hashey
Special to Poynter.org

[Editor's note: Ed Hashey is a member of Poynter's visiting visual journalism faculty and an affiliate of Mario Garcia New Media Group.]

I keep playing this back in my head. It just did not seem real, nor would I ever have imagined such a series of events happening this morning. It is true: Everything seemed to be in slow motion.

I arrived here Sunday night with my wife. She was going to spend the whole week with me for my birthday. I reported to work yesterday as a consultant at The Wall Street Journal.

Monday we just came up with the work load for the next few weeks. I came back to the hotel at midtown Manhattan, had dinner with my wife, Jeanne, where we discussed our day's events and plans for tomorrow.

Jeanne said she want to come in with me to the downtown area on Tuesday morning and visit the top of the World Trade Center. She found a two-dollar discount coupon. The next morning we both ate breakfast and my wife decided she was not feeling well enough to join me this morning.

So I left for work this morning at 8 a.m. I got on the number 9 train from Times Square, and read a chapter in my book. Before you knew it, it was 8:40 a.m. and I was at the World Trade Center station at Cortland Street.

I got off the train, walked up to the street exit, and right as I saw daylight, I heard a huge explosion and then many pieces of metal debris, some the size of car hoods, were falling all around me and a very large crowd of people.

We all responded by trying to go back in the train station exit, but there were too many people trying to exit, and so we all squeezed against the side of the World Trade Center. After a while, the debris stopped falling. We crossed Liberty street, and looked up and saw the first tower engulfed in flames. Eyewitnesses said a plane had crashed into the building high up.

Then to my horror, I started seeing people jump to their deaths. As each person fell, I started praying. Many people fell, and we were not sure where to go or what to do. Then a loud noise of an aircraft became apparent, and I remember seeing a large airline jet smash into the next tower, followed by many flaming pieces falling all around us and many people being struck by debris and burning wreckage. I ran into an entryway of the building across the street and saw debris take out windows. A large crowd of pedestrians outside was hit as they were on their way to work.

At that point the police ordered a mass evacuation, and I remember thinking this was a terrorist act. It was just too coincidental too be anything else.

I decided to just start running north up Broadway. By the time I reached Chambers Street, I kept trying phones to call my wife and say I was OK, but nothing was working, all circuits busy, my cell phone did not work.

So I just got on a train and ran to my hotel room. My wife was in tears, and I was shaking like a leaf. I as still shaking and very sad, then I witnessed the towers falling on the news channel, and I just stood there in disbelief.

I am sad, angry, nervous, happy to be alive, but humbled by others' deaths today. I can't stop seeing the visions of bodies falling. I still pray for their families, but the world will never be the same again.

I'm very sorry to be writing this.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 81 of 783: rachael  (rachael) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (15:18) * 3 lines 
 
UK news is saying that the US President has gone to Nebraska because that's HQ when the USA is on a war footing.

To all my old friends in the US, and the new ones I've made here on Spring recently, my thoughts and prayers are with you on this dreadful day. Take care, all of you.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 82 of 783: winter  (winter) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (15:27) * 9 lines 
 
HOW THE HELL DID HIJACKERS GET PAST SECURITY AT LOGAN?????????????

Well, considering these were domestic flights, I suspect that security is a little more lax. I remember listening to an NPR story not too long ago about how airport security employees have such a high turn-around, and most aren't unionized....

I'm in LA where things are eerily quiet. Schools are still in session, but they've cancelled a lot of events tonight (the Madonna concert, Latin Grammys, MLB games, etc..). Some production studios (the major ones anyway) have also shut down for the day.

I'm trying to get work done, but it's just too difficult.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 83 of 783: Autumn   (autumn) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (15:27) * 4 lines 
 
Alas, Babylon...


Maryland has been declared a state of emergency. The military post S. works on is at its highest security level, there are massive amounts of agent stored there. Schools, colleges, programs, everything is closed. Hospitals have canceled all elective surgeries to stay ready for victims. I was in D.C. on Monday, sight-seeing with my aunt from Dallas. She tried to call us all afternoon, but there were no available circuits until 3:30. It is so quiet--there's not a car on the road (everyone's watching TV I guess) or a plane in the sky. Weird. I can't even process it all yet.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 84 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (15:28) * 113 lines 
 

pastebomb alert -- bruces *8-(


that peculiar parade-going-in-the-wrong-direction has passed ... maybe
we'll find out what that was, at some point ...

people are now out of their offices for lunchtime, still almost no
traffic, but the shops are open and people are hanging out watching the
clouds of smoke ... the view towards the south is unimaginable ... much
more jet activity ...

-Ken


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SPECTRE list for media culture in Deep Europe
Info, archive and help:
http://post.openoffice.de/mailman/listinfo/spectre

NYC, Fifth Avenue & 19th St.

... people are walking in large crowds in the middle of Fifth Ave.,
heading south, as if in a parade. Many more have been standing, looking
south, for hours now, as if waiting for something else to happen. It's
just clouds of smoke now where the WTC used to be... Some people have
radios, portable tvs. Few people's cell phones are working. Apart from
the downed antennae, the circuits are just jammed, regular phones are
jammed, too. The only traffic seems to be ambulances. Apart from the
sirens, it is eerily quiet for midday ... fighter jets are flying
overhead now ...


-Ken



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another meaning for spectre....

Pandemonium envelops reporters incapable of expressing much more than shock.
The highways in lower Manhattan are loaded with an exodus of refugees
escaping downtown. Electricity has been shut don in lower Manhattan.
Airports are in chaos. Everything has a surreal siege status.

No official word other than a short statement from Bush early this morning.
His plane from Florida will not go to Washington where Chaney is "in charge"
at the White House.

more soon,

Tim
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i can just report, that here at ZKM in karlsruhe we are also totally
shocked, following the news on German tv and CNN for hours and don't
know really what to say as angst is emerging of the events. what will
happen now? will this event to exponentiate the use of terror between
south and north, between east and west?

most embarassing seems the clean, totally emotion-less face of G.W.
Bush. cannot believe that this is an eqiuvalent reaction of his. (is he
in drugs?)

best to all,
anke

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The national guard has been called up in NYC -- Its like a war zone, they
are
predicting the death toll as being in the thousands -- 40,000 people work in
the
two towers and were in the process of arriving for work when the first plane
struck -- I witnessed the collapse of the second tower, from a roof about a
half
mile away-- the city is shut down -- there are still three or 4 more planes
unaccounted for -- the pentagon was also attacked and severely damaged --
with
large lost of life-- a plane was brought down near camp David -- I placed
part
of the blame for this turn of events on the Bush administration's failure
to
intervene in Palestine, his failure to send observers and his failure to
condemn
Israel's policy of assination against Palestine leaders. This is truly a
horror.

Saul
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.
y


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 85 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (15:31) * 74 lines 
 
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

bruce --

i'm putting together a piece for tomorrow's paper on how the internet
reacted/helped/hurt in the face of this disaster. i need help. if you see
or hear anything that would feed into this story, please let me know. if
you've got anything to say, please give me a quote. i am working out of my
home. 540 347 1960. garreau@well.com or garreauj@washpost.com. i'll need
to start writing 4-ish eastern time, although i can push later than that
for good stuff. please pass the word to anybody else who can help.

thanx.

joel


Joel Garreau
The Washington Post
202 334 6269 voice
202 334 5587 fax
garreauj@washpost.com

"But I keep hitting these typewriter keys. What a magician is the
subconscious. If only it would work regular hours."
-- Raymond Chandler, "The Long Goodbye"
21ST CENTURY DETERRENCE AND TODAY'S ATTACKS

Washington, D.C., September 11/PRNEWSWIRE/ -- Responding to today's
attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, Robert David Steele,
author of ON INTELLIGENCE: Spies and Secrecy in an Open World (AFCEA, 2000),
said: "The tragedy of today's coordinated attacks against the World Trade
Center and the Pentagon--with other targets expected shortly--must be
regarded as the Pearl Harbor of the 21st Century. Our national leaders have
wasted ten years since the end of the Cold War, failing to understand that
it is instability, poverty, oppression, disease, and cultural conflict that
require the USA to expend billions of dollars on stabilizing and nurturing
the Whole Earth."

Mr. Steele goes on to note, ""As Robert McNamara and others have pointed
out, 'at least two thirds of the world's people--Chinese, Russian, Indians,
Muslims, and Africans'--see the United States as the single greatest threat
to their societies, because of our 'intrusive, interventionist,
exploitative, unilateralist, hegemonic, hypocritical practices' of 'economic
imperialism' and 'intellectual colonialism'." The capitalist party is over.
It is time to give Colin Powell what he needs to save the world--only by
saving the world can we save America."

On this occasion Steele and Professor Stephen Cimbala have re-released their
earlier warning on the need for a new concept of deterrence in the 21st
Century. Their joint communiqu can be downloaded quickly (539 words) from
http://www.oss.net/Papers/white/TodaysAttacks.doc.

Mr. Steele concludes: "America is the greatest country in the world,
but we have lost sight of our moral foundations, failed to listen to our
great strategists Zbigniew Brzezinski and Stephen Metz, and completely
closed down the U.S. Department of State and our foreign assistance
endeavors. It is time for a Global Marshal Plan that respects the fact that
the Whole Earth is a closed system; that does not trivialize today's attacks
as terrorist events; and that wakes up to the fact that money cannot buy
security in a world where asymmetric power is now in the hands of the people
that we have been ignoring and sidelining for over a century."

Mr. Steele is available for telephone interviews at (703) 242-1700.
His high-resolution photograph can be downloaded from
http://www.oss.net/Papers/white/AuthorPhoto.gif. Various white papers on
the 21st Century threat and what to do about it are at
http://www.oss.net/White.html.

SOURCE: Open Source Solutions, Inc.
-0- 09/11/2001
/CONTACT: Robert Steele, OSS CEO,
703-242-1700, or bear@oss.net/
/Web site: www.oss.net


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 86 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (15:35) * 9 lines 
 

Ted Olsen's wife Barbara, ironically, was on the plane that crashed into
the Pentagon.

ABC News reported that a KAL airliner had been "forced down" and boarded
by the military in Canada - not sure when.

Barbara Olsen was able to contact her husband by cell phone, and reported
that all the passengers had been herded to the rear of the aircraft.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 87 of 783: rachael  (rachael) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (15:41) * 1 lines 
 
Apparently its being suggested now that the 4th plane, that crashed near Pittsburgh, was intercepted and brought down by US forces after it failed to respond to air traffic control and refused to identify itself, and it was on a heading for Camp David - am in UK but have just had this from a friend in Chicago - does anyone know if this is true?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 88 of 783: Barry Kort  (moulton) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (15:42) * 9 lines 
 
Bush is at Offutt AFB in Omaha, home of the Strategic Air Command.

Boston has not been evacuated. Logan Airport has been closed and people have been asked to leave.

The only aircraft flying over Boston today are delta-wing military aircraft, perhaps an F-15 or F-16.

I'm gonna guess that the hijackers somehow disabled the crew, perhaps with gas, which would be easy enough to get through security, and then took over the controls of the plane. This is just my own personal speculation.

I expect our nation will now enter a phase of crisis fatigue.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 89 of 783: rachael  (rachael) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (15:44) * 1 lines 
 
Apparently its being suggested now that the 4th plane, that crashed near Pittsburgh, was intercepted and brought down by US forces after it failed to respond to air traffic control and refused to identify itself, and it was on a heading for Camp David - am in UK but have just had this from a friend in Chicago - does anyone know if this is true?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 90 of 783: Barry Kort  (moulton) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (15:45) * 1 lines 
 
I have heard no reliable reports of how the fourth plane went down near Pittsburgh, but it's possible that it was forced down by an interceptor, as this plane was on a considerably later timetable than the first three. The military would have had time to respond.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 91 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (15:45) * 1 lines 
 
A govt spokesperson has just refuted that rumor about shooting down the plane.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 92 of 783: Laura T  (LauraT) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (15:46) * 1 lines 
 
Rachael, all the info I've heard about the Pittsburgh plane has been unconfirmed, but I've also heard the same thing. Hopefully there will be more details later.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 93 of 783: Barry Kort  (moulton) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (15:46) * 1 lines 
 
Terry, is your server on GMT?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 94 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (15:46) * 1 lines 
 
Outside Omaha, Nebraska is the Strategic Air Command. Then there is Norad just outside of Colorado Springs. Been there. They don't welcome stangers!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 95 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (15:48) * 39 lines 
 
from unidentified source:


An attorney named Tom Humphries is being interviewed by Jennings now. He
was on the 57th floor in one of the buildings--they cut into the interview
in progress so I'm not sure which one--oh, it would have been the first
building hit.

57th floor. Took him 45 minutes to get down the staircase. He said people
were calm, and helping each other. Asked about whether there were lights,
he said, "Last time there weren't, this time there were." (God. "Last
time.")

Only one stairwell was open, the others were blocked by smoke. The first
building took some time before it imploded, and he thinks a large number of
people got out.

(The second building got hit later and collapsed sooner. I hope they were
already evacuating after the first building was hit.)

Jennings: "I must say I'm amazed how calm you are, after having been in the
first bombing in 1993 and now this."

Humphries chuckles briefly. "I'm happy to be here."

Humphries says the evacuation down one narrow stairway was "a recipe for
disaster" but everyone's calmness kept it from becoming one.

He talked to someone from Tower 2, who was on the 88th floor. They started
evacuating after Tower 1 was hit, and that person got out.

He says, "I think the tragedy is, the police and fire people who were trying
to help people were right under the building when that happened"--the
collapse--"They were at ground zero."

I think this simple interview has started to break through my wall of shock.
Listening to a very calm man who was in the building and walked down 57
floors with thousands of heroically self-composed people describe that. I
am, goddamnit, starting to believe this.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 96 of 783: Barry Kort  (moulton) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (15:49) * 1 lines 
 
Terry, is your server on GMT?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 97 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (15:49) * 1 lines 
 
Yeah, I need to fix that again. I keep setting it for CST and it reverts to GMT.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 98 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (15:53) * 29 lines 
 
More unidentified reports:

source a:

Some terrorism experts are saying that the only ones who could pull this
off
are the CIA-trained fundamentalist terrorists in afganistan... we taught
them to take down the local great satan -- the USSR -- and now they are
turning their attention to the rilly rilly great satan. They do not have
headquarters. they do not have known leaders. they are good with
technology. They can organize. they are willing to die. they don't
care
if someone else takes the blame.

This second hand from someone who is interviewing experts and pundits.


source b:

My guess is that the hijackers flew first class, maybe spent some time
in the Red Carpet Club before boarding the flights, and didn't appear to
be palestinian freedom fighters. Maybe Japanese businessmen if the
announcement by the Japanese Red Army is accurate.

And another report:

BBC News reporting that a building close to the site of the WTC is at
risk
of collapse as a result of the towers collapsing.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 99 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (15:55) * 1 lines 
 
Outside Omaha, Nebraska is the Strategic Air Command. Then there is Norad just outside of Colorado Springs. Been there. They don't welcome stangers!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 100 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (15:57) * 1 lines 
 
They are identifying it as Building 7


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 101 of 783: rachael  (rachael) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (16:00) * 1 lines 
 
BBC suggested that the hijackers were probably domestic passengers not international, ie boarded in the US, because passports aren't needed for internal flights (obviously)


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 102 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (16:00) * 9 lines 
 
This just in, in a day full of "this just in's"

BBC News reporting that a building close to the site of the WTC is at
risk of collapse as a result of the towers collapsing.

So is NPR.

BBC now reporting that the building is the 40 storey Sallmon Bros
building. And that it has collpased now.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 103 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (16:07) * 1 lines 
 
No other building has collapsed yet.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 104 of 783: rachael wallis  (rachael) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (16:08) * 1 lines 
 
blood donor centres running low - all who can are urged to donate as a matter of urgency


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 105 of 783: Karen Rosenberg  (KarenR) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (16:25) * 3 lines 
 
The third building (#7) has collapsed. CNN just confirmed. Also says there are fears about another (#5).

CNN is interviewing Tom Clancy now.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 106 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (16:26) * 16 lines 
 
I don't know if you have seen this:

Knives on Board
(techstudies2000) Sep 11, 16:49

Tuesday Sept. 11, 2001; 4:35 p.m. EDT
Flight Attendants Stabbed Aboard Twin Tower Kamikaze Plane

A violent struggle with knife-wielding terrorists took place outside the cockpit of one of two hijacked planes before it slammed into the World Trade Center Tuesday morning, a flight attendant on board reported to American Airlines before her death.

"A flight attendant on that plane was apparently able to call the American Airlines operations center to tell them that two flight attendants had been stabbed and that the perpetrators had broken into the flight deck," ABC Radio News reported.

The plane was enroute from Boston to Los Angeles when it was commandeered by terrorists for its kamikaze mission.





 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 107 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (16:28) * 1 lines 
 
That last building was 47 stories tall.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 108 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (16:31) * 1 lines 
 
CNN is now showing some new closeup footage (from PAX TV) of the second plane hitting. What it shows is the plane going right into the building and possibly coming through the other side.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 109 of 783: Beth  (Bethanne) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (16:32) * 11 lines 
 
As to the Pittsburgh plane being brought down "intentionally"....I heard that its suspected target was Camp David and, that fighter jets took it down before it could reach its target.

I have no problem understanding how these terrorists and their weapons, could get past airport security at Logan and Dulles, if their security is anything like it is here in Atlanta. Totally disinterested kids, poorly trained and motivated man the security check points here. It would take very little effort to "sneak" something past them.

The security level at US airports here in the US is very, very, very minimal compared to that at European airports. In Europe, only passengers can enter the Departure Concourse and Lounges. You can not meet someone directly off a plane in Europe, the way you can over here. Also, in Europe you go thru many, many checkpoints and security before you get on your flight. I just wish to God, US airports were as fussy.

Twoyearsago I flew from the US to Ireland via London, but I flew back via Glasgow. As I was sitting in the airport in Glasgow, waiting for my flight to Chicago,I was paged on the airport intercom to report back to the American Airlines desk. I was then grilled by the security forces for 2 hours in a tiny little room, which terrifed me witless. Apparantly, an Irish person entering the UK thru one airport and exiting thru another, raised a red flag on some security services computer and I was deemed a "terrorist threat".

As the IRA was very active in the UK at the time, I did my best to understand that these were just people who were doing their job. After my nerves and heart rate returned to normal, I was actually kind of happy that the security forces were taking such "extreme" steps to ensure the safety of airline passengers. I would love to see US airports be equally vigilant.

Sorry if I am waffleing....I'm just at a loss, like the rest of you, in trying to comprehend the horror of this carnage.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 110 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (16:49) * 13 lines 
 

ABC's Claire Shipman reporting the President is on his way to Washington and
will make a statement tonight; "We're told he's angry about what happened
and very much wants to make a statement". Congressional leaders also
returning from their safe haven, also will make statements.

"There's apparently a real premium here in Washington among the leaders of
presenting a face of business as usual," she says. The leadership has been
warned of the risk but feels it's important to be in Washington. The
President will be landing in D.C. where they feel the airspace is as safe as
anywhere in the nation. Vice President Cheney will then be removed from the
White House as a precaution, though the First Lady is expected to join her
husband.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 111 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (16:53) * 41 lines 
 
To: "Red Rock Eater News Service"
Subject: [RRE]attack
From: Phil Agre
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:58:22 -0700

Here are some more URL's relating to the attacks this morning.

a backup site that generally works when cnn.com does not
http://robots.cnn.com/

video of the second plane in New York
high bandwidth:
http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/091101plane1-large.html
low bandwidth:
http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/091101plane1-small.html

people's stories
http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAVZWE2IRC.html

Hotline from the National Journal can be accessed today for free
http://hotlinescoop.com/web/content/hotline.htm
http://nationaljournal.com/pubs/hotline/extra/lastcall/

this site will register people who are safe
http://do.millennium.berkeley.edu/

you can query this site to search for people
http://do.millennium.berkeley.edu/find.php

military analysis
http://www.janes.com/

photos from Brooklyn of the buildings collapsing
http://www.indigo23.com/

an architect discussing how the buildings collapsed
http://home.actlab.utexas.edu/pipermail/discuss/2001-September/000226.html

Engineers Shocked By Towers Collapse
http://chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-010911kamin-towers.story



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 112 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (16:54) * 2 lines 
 
a great archive of World Trade Center stuff at



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 113 of 783: Liz K  (ekelley) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (16:58) * 5 lines 
 
7 WT is the one that just collapsed. I was in that building just a few months ago, visiting my friend. He works (or worked...I don't know if he's ok yet...I hate this) for the city Office of Emergency Management. He took me into the "Bunker" where the command center was. it was built to withstand the blast of a nuclear bomb, a category 5 hurricane, and some other disasters. I don't think they ever thought that tower 1 would collapse onto it.

they have cut us off on Long Island. The only way we can get off (if we needed to) are the 2 Connecticut ferries from Pt. Jefferson and Orient Point. They have closed all of the highways, and most of the schools. People are panicing, unfortunately...long lines at the supermarket, gas stations (which I did myself), etc. If this is what war feels like... *sob*

thank you all for being here and reading this, and for all of your thoughts. it helps more than you know.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 114 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (16:58) * 24 lines 
 

Regarding the stability of the towers:

From < http://www.enr.com/new/A0816.asp>

Before foundation excavation began, the 500 x 1,000-ft site was enclosed
by a 3-ft-thick, 70-ft-high concrete cutoff wall built by the slurry
trench wall method and keyed 3 ft into rock. Excavation was complicated by
two nearby subway tubes that had to be supported without service
interruption. A six-level basement was built in the foundation
hole. Excavation of 1.2 million cu yd of earth and rock created $90
million of real estate for project owner, the Port of New York
Authority. Instead of being trucked off for disposal, spoil was used to
create 23 acres of fill in the Hudson River adjacent to the WTC site. It
has since been developed as Battery Park City.

The twin towers had the world's highest load-bearing walls. Seattle-based
structural engineer Worthington, Skilling, Helle and Jackson designed them
as vertical cantilevered steel tubes. Exterior columns are 14-in. square
hollow box sections spaced 39 in. center-to-center. Spandrels welded to
the columns at each floor make them into huge Vierendeel trusses. Each
tower is 208 x 208 ft with a column-free interior between the outer walls
and the 79-ft x 139-ft core.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 115 of 783: rachael  (rachael) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (16:58) * 3 lines 
 
further to Beth's post above about security, here's an article from the BBC comparing security at US and UK airports - having been pulled over twice in the UK as a frequent UK/Ireland flyer, one body search, one bag search, I'd agree its annoying at the time, but then you think you'd rather be safe and you're glad it happens ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1538000/1538682.stm


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 116 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (17:01) * 1 lines 
 
There are explosions in Kabul now. Missiles, tracer fire. Antiaircraft fire.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 117 of 783: Liz K  (ekelley) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (17:08) * 1 lines 
 
4 F-16s just flew over my house... and now Kabul... Lord help us all.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 118 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (20:48) * 20 lines 
 
Some incredible photos.

http://www.alternet.org/graphics/story_hirez/terrorist1.jpg

http://www.alternet.org/graphics/story_hirez/terrorist2.jpg

http://www.alternet.org/graphics/story_hirez/terrorist3.jpg

http://www.alternet.org/graphics/story_hirez/terrorist4.jpg

http://www.alternet.org/graphics/story_hirez/terrorist5.jpg

http://www.alternet.org/graphics/story_hirez/terrorist6.jpg

http://www.alternet.org/graphics/story_hirez/terrorist7.jpg

http://www.alternet.org/graphics/story_hirez/terrorist8.jpg

http://www.alternet.org/graphics/story_hirez/terrorist9.jpg



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 119 of 783: LeeM  (WinniePeg) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (20:50) * 4 lines 
 
I am still in shock over today's events and wondering how this could have happened. I am in Canada and think this is the first time I have EVER heard of the Cdn/USA border being closed. I am amazed at how much security has gone into place so quickly. All airports shut down (only taking diverted overseas flights that were to land in U.S.) In our small city, streets to airport are all blocked--no one allowed into or out of airport. Extra police/customs are in place at border already. Cdn.fighter jets had to escort two Korean Air/Lines into Whitehorse airport today when they did not respond to hail.

In a total state of disbelieve! HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN??



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 120 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (20:54) * 3 lines 
 
San Francisco Bay and its bridges and industries and Alameda are all being partolled by AWACS planes this night. There are frightened citizens there, and I worry for them, as well.

We are ALL in a state of total disbelief. They have stopped selling stuff on QVC and HSC out of respect... That has to be a first.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 121 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (21:06) * 13 lines 
 
It happened because we didn't answer many wake up calls.
It happened because minimum wage people do security at airports.
It happened because we were thinking about a missle defense system instead of tightening up our obvious security holes.

Ebay is full of people selling ghoulish mementos and wtc related domain names.

I'm still in shock, I've been channel surfing the major networks, ABC is the only one that hasn't given this whole thing a big garish name. Peter Jennings and Diane Sawyer are doing some pretty good, calm, balanced coverage.

Bush's speech made it clear we won't just go after the terrorists but those harboring the terrorists.

This is the beginning of a campaign on worldwide terror.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 122 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (21:08) * 41 lines 
 

http://news.mpr.org/features/200109/11_newsroom_terrorist/
has photos and also live radio clips.

The image of the plane slicing through (from the other side of the building)
is shocking. It's in the national images slideshow, the caption reads:

"An amateur photographer was snapping a photograph of the damage to one
World Trade Center tower at the instant when a second airliner
crashed into the other tower.
(credit pending) "

From: info@kauf.com
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 02:47:49 +0200
To: david@trufun.com
Subject: Press release: Help for terror victims by Internet

Ladies and Gentlemen

Victims and their relatives of the terrorist attacks can get help by
Internet. At http://www.wtchelp.com or http://66.33.42.252 they can add a
special notice for searching a person and get further information. The
Internet page was developed by the company Kaufcom for the WTC Help
Organization. Within shortest time, further information and auxiliary
functions will be provided to offer a fast and easy help.

The WTC Help Organization was found at the 11th of September 2001. Our goal
is it to support the victims and their relatives with the best possible help
by using the new medias. The WTC Help Organization stays in contact with many
other organisations.

Patrick Hofer

WTC-Help Organization
Neue Winterthurerstr. 30
CH-8305 Dietlikon
Switzerland

Fax: +41 1 888 43 16
Email:hofer@kaufcom.ch



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 123 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (21:15) * 8 lines 
 
Orrin Hatch said a month a go they knew there was going to be a big attack.

Barbara Walters is reporting this and Peter Jennings is appealing on him to explain this more clearly.

Hatch is saying he has the real data that Ohsama Bin Ladin did this.

He's saying we have about 24 hours to act and round up the terrorists before they go underground.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 124 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (21:40) * 3 lines 
 
There is not a message board anywhere that has not talked about this. Every single Yahoo club to which I belong is talking about it. Mostly how numb everyone feels. Non-US people reacting with sadness and condolences and the same determination to win this match.

Don't mess with those I love. I am ready to do what must be done!!!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 125 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (21:53) * 5 lines 
 
From Reuters






 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 126 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (21:54) * 1 lines 
 
http://reuters.com/ go look at the large photo... it is astounging!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 127 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (22:09) * 78 lines 
 
Subject: report from NYC...
Date: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 5:36 PM
From: Michael McDonough
To: Bruce Sterling

It started at 8:45 AM with the missile-like scream of something flying
too low and fast across the city's heart, followed by a thump that
shook the ground. Something is wrong.

Minutes later, a second thump. The city empties into the streets. TVs
come alive with live video feeds of the planes striking the south sides
of the towers. I photograph the fires from my SoHo roof, capturing the
north sides on film. The fire has penetrated the towers and is licking
up the facades, bright orange tongues through inky black smoke.

But the towers are not the towers, they are one tower and one smoky
billow the size of an atomic cloud. People are jumping from the upper
stories of the remaining tower. A short time later, now on the streets,
my wife and I are talking to strangers, exchanging information got
from blaring car radios.

Mid-sentence, the second tower implodes before our eyes, only a few
blocks away, glass shards blowing out from the smoky, collapsing core.
Like nightmarish snow, they glisten and sparkle, then disappear. On a
normal day, over 100,000 persons pass through the WTC. We have just
seen a large number of them vaporized.

Debris, chunks of the buildings the size of city buses and automobiles
rain down onto the streets of Lower Manhattan. The collapses at first
take the tops of the towers. In a matter of seconds, the remaining,
lower reaches are infernos. The facades of the towers have fallen onto
the surrounding streets. A woman in the hotel next to the towers
reports seeing legions of firefighters, police, and medical personnel
disappeared beneath the rubble in an instant. Now the explosions have
killed not only those in the towers, but those trying to save them on
the ground.

Elsewhere in the city, as the day grinds on, businesses and shops are
closed, locked tight with security gates in place. All civilian
vehicular transportation in and out of the city stops. The tunnels are
sealed off and empty. The bridges are available for those who want to
hike out of the city.

At early evening I walk the police cordons around lower Manhattan. On
the local streets, urgent laser printed pleas for blood donations are
taped to mailboxes and street lamps. Black SUVs with darkened windows
scream through intersections in long lines, with sirens and flashing
lights. Ambulances from New Jersey and Long Island, and Upstate New
York--townships 60 miles and more outside of New York City--course the
streets; 20, 30 at a time, they move, heading north to hospitals and
triage centers.

Military planes dart overhead, then disappear. The city is an uneasy
silence broken on occasion by piecing, crackling sounds, warnings and
urgent communications. Thousands of people stare blank-eyed and quiet
as they watch the buildings all over downtown burn. Dozens of
construction workers loaded on trucks--welding kits, steel barriers,
men and material--head south, to ground zero. Fire engines line the
west side arterial roads, empty, their occupants fighting the
out-of-control fires on foot.

Military vehicles start to appear. The trucks and cars near the center
are shattered, crushed, lost in a hail of ash and metal and concrete.
New fires start. Smoke billows easterly, against white smoke against
the blue sky of our mid-September day. More buildings are burning.
Another flaming, 40 story pile falls.

We are helpless; we watch. Cars are burning. Mercury from a million
fluorescent lights, PCBs from miles of electrical components, dioxin
from football fields of synthetic carpets and miles of PVC piping
placed throughout the complex, a toxic, now gray soup belching from the
flaming, collapsing hulks. It is as if the city has lost its arms, and
is staring blankly at where they used to be, finding flaming, smoking
voids in their stead.

Michael McDonough
New York City
9/11


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 128 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (22:15) * 7 lines 
 
from another board:

scutmonkey
Posted On 09/11/01 07:55PM


I have a friend that works for Delta Airlines HQ here in Atlanta that person had a couple things to say. One is that the plane over Pennsylvania was intentionally run into the ground by the pilot. All four of those aircraft had radio communications and were describing what was happening at least in the beginning. They issued special emergency codes as well. The pilots locked the cabin doors, but there is a key with the flight attendants that is hidden in a different place on each flight. The terrorist began stabbing crew members and passengers until someone told them where it was. The crew believed that this was a typical hostage and ransom situation and gave up the keys. When the pilots of the Pennsylvania plane realized it wasn't from the other incidents they crashed the jet.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 129 of 783: Annette Mercer  (laughingsky) * Tue, Sep 11, 2001 (22:36) * 1 lines 
 
I went into a hospital meeting at 7:30am and came out at 9:00am (CST) this a.m., only to discover that the world was suddenly going to hell! Here in middle Tennessee, the lines are growing longer outside the gas stations...the small town streets are crowded with cars trying to fill up and beat the iminent gas hikes that are rumored to occur by morning. A neighbor works close to the Tennessee/Alabama line and was told that gas in Alabama had shot up to $10.00 a gallon.....jeez....BTW, Thanks to all of you who have expressed condolences on this board. Your support is greatly needed and appreciated!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 130 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (00:56) * 73 lines 
 
The Boston Herald is breaking some amazing details:

WAR: Hub terror suspects ID'd: Bush vows retaliation after devestating attack
by Ed Hayward, Tom Farmer and Cosmo Macero Jr.

Wednesday, September 12, 2001

Authorities in Massachusetts identified at least five Arab men as suspects in
yesterday's terror attacks launched from Logan International Airport, seizing in the central parking garage a car laden with Arabic-language flight training manuals, sources said last night.

Two of the men, whose passports were traced to the United Arab Emirates, were brothers, one of whom was a trained pilot, a source told the Herald, speaking on condition of anonymity.

At least two other suspects flew to Logan yesterday from Portland, Maine, where authorities believe they had traveled after crossing over from Canada recently.

Once in the air, the hijackers in one plane began killing flight attendants in order to lure a pilot from the cockpit and seize the plane, said one source.

``They started killing stewardesses in the back of the plane as a diversion. The pilot came back to help and that is how they got into the cockpit,'' said the source. The source could not specify whether those events took place on the American Airlines flight that left Logan, or the United Airlines flight. Both planes were plunged into the World Trade Center roughly an hour after they departed Boston.

The suspects had no guns, but used shaving kits and other carry-on luggage to smuggle knife-like weapons made up of plastic handles embedded with razor blades, sources familiar with last night's developments said. That finding is consistent with reports of a flight attendant's cell-phone call from one of the doomed airliners.

``People were calling from the plane saying they were getting killed, calling 911,'' said one source. ``One stewardess called her husband to say goodbye.''

Authorities were led to the rental car by a civilian who got into an altercation with several Arab men as they were parking their car, identified by sources as a Mitsubishi sedan.

The man, whose name was not available last night, called state police from an out-of-state airport after his own flight landed yesterday and he learned planes hijacked from Logan had been involved in attacks that toppled the World Trade Center's twin towers, crippled the Pentagon and downed another airliner in Pennsylvania.

The car, rented from National Rental Car, was secured yesterday by the FBI and authorities have prepared a search warrant. It was unclear when the warrant would be served.

State police interviewed more than 130 people at the airport yesterday, as America launched what is expected to be the largest criminal investigation in its history.

Investigators suspect the two brothers identified by Bay State investigators were aboard United Airlines Flight 175.

The terror plot included the hijacking and crashing of four airliners, including one into the Pentagon, where the Arlington, Va., fire chief estimated the death toll at up to 800.

In New York last night, Mayor Rudolph Guiliani told reporters some people are alive in the rubble of the trade center complex, and there was an unconfirmed report of a cop being pulled out alive last night. There was also a report that survivors trapped in the collapsed buildings were making cell-phone calls.

A horrified nation witnessed the shocking carnage as the World Trade Center's ``North Tower'' burned and exploded after it was struck just before 9 a.m. by Los Angeles-bound American Airlines Flight 11, which departed Boston's Logan Airport at 7:59 a.m. with 81 passengers, two pilots and nine flight attendants.

A second jet - United Airlines Flight 175, that left Logan for L.A. at 8:14 a.m. carrying 56 passengers, seven attendants and two pilots - was captured on video as it sliced through the ``South Tower'' and unleashed a massive fireball just after 9 a.m.

Just moments before the first crash, air traffic controllers heard the lone voice of the terror plot speaking from the cockpit of one doomed aircraft.

``We have more planes, we have other planes,'' a voice alleged to be that of a hijacker could be heard saying through a microphone activated by a pilot of American Airlines Flight 11, the Christian Science Monitor reported on its Web site.

Establishing the death toll could take weeks. The four airliners alone carried 266 people, none known to survive. At the Pentagon, as many as 800 people could be dead, including plane victims.

Roughly 50,000 people worked at the World Trade Center and there was an hour available for evacuations. But the toll already appeared staggering for the men and women who worked to save lives. A firefighters union official said an estimated 200 firefighters had died. An estimated 87 police officers were missing.

Within two hours of the initial Trade Center crash, the fiery nightmare gave way to mind-numbing grief, as both towers imploded, raining thick dust, glass shards, metal chunks and human remains on the streets below. As the twin symbols of American capitalism's global reach crashed to the ground in a smoking heap of dust and debris, the Pentagon burned after another fiery strike - this time American Airlines Flight 77, which left Dulles Airport in Washington, D.C., for Los Angeles with 58 passengers, four attendants and two pilots.

A fourth hijacked plane, United Airlines Flight 93, carrying 38 passengers, two pilots and five flight attendands out of Newark, N.J., crashed in Pennsylvania with its intended target believed to be the presidential retreat at Camp David.

Officials assembled a massive team of investigators as harrowing details of the hijackings began to emerge, culled from desperate cell-phone and radio calls made by passengers and crew: ``One of the pilots keyed their mike so the conversation between the pilot and the person in the cockpit could be heard,'' an unamed controller told the paper. ``The person in the cockpit was speaking English. He was saying something like, `Don't do anything foolish. You're not going to get hurt.' ''

The Los Angeles-bound plane requested a flight path for John F. Kennedy Airport, but then its tracking transponder was shut off and it veered toward the Manhattan skyline.

A flight attendant aboard Flight 11 called superiors to report two flight attendants had been stabbed and hijackers had broken into the cockpit, ABC News reported. The attendant also relayed the seat number of one hijacker before the plane struck the Trade Center.

U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft confirmed knives were believed to have been used in the Flight 11 hijacking. Aboard American Airlines Flight 93, just moments before it crashed into the Pentagon, Barbara Olson, wife of Solicitor General Ted Olson, called her husband on a cell phone to tell him hijackers wielding knives and box cutters had hearded passengers and crew into the back of the plane.

``She called her husband twice during the hijacking to tell him the plane had been hijacked, and they lost contact once and she called back,'' reported CNN, where Barbara Olson worked as a commentator.

``She said to Ted, `What do I tell the pilot to do?' CNN reported. ``But there was nothing they could do, they were all kept in the back of the plane.''

In Pennsylvania, an emergency dispatcher received a cell-phone call at 9:58 a.m. from a man who said he was a passenger locked in a bathroom aboard United Flight 93, said dispatch supervisor Glenn Cramer in neighboring Westmoreland County. ``We are being hijacked, we are being hijacked!'' Cramer quoted the man from a transcript of the call. The man told dispatchers the plane ``was going down. He heard some sort of explosion and saw white smoke coming from the plane and we lost contact with him,'' Cramer said.

Virginia Rep. James Moran said the intended target of the plane was apparently Camp David, the presidential retreat in Maryland, 85 miles away from the crash site.

Robert Fitzpatrick, a former second-in-command in the FBI's Boston office, said Boston appears to have been the staging area for the attack on New York and the hijackers most likely had help from others who may still be in Boston.

``There's a terrorist cell operating out of Boston,'' Fitzpatrick said. ``They had to have support, they had to have people on the ground, in Boston, supporting them.''

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/local_regional/ausattk09122001.htm


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 131 of 783: Renata  (Renata) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (02:43) * 9 lines 
 
This is beyond words, and beyond understanding. I'm still trying to find words to tell you what I feel about the unspeakable, unimaginable. My thoughts are with all who suffer, the innocent victims, and their families and friends, and with the American people.

I send my heartfelt condolences from Germany - we are all with you.

Whatever the intention was of this senseless killing, it goes empty: it will unite - has already united - all freedom-loving people all over the world.

Take care all of you.

Renate


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 132 of 783: Aniutek  (Anek) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (03:44) * 2 lines 
 
I was at work yesterday when my colleague called me to tell that WTC in NY collapsed and that Pentagon was on fire. I couldn't believe in it. I thought he told me a stupid joke. Everything reminded of some films or books, but not real life. But then I went to news website and the truth struck me with shock.
Today I've read your news reports and can't stop thinking about the people trapped in the burning building and those who were caugh in the hijacked planes. The senseless cruelty and detailed preparation of the operation is sth beyond my understanding. I'm joining in grief with everyone and I do hope than anything like this will not happen again.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 133 of 783: suzee   (suzee202000) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (03:47) * 80 lines 
 

More on United Flight 93 from today's Miami Herald:


Passenger called wife from cell phone shortly before Pittsburgh crash
By Paul Rogers and Lisa Fernandez
Knight Ridder

SAN JOSE, Calif. (12:30 a.m. EDT) -- It might have been the final resistance of a doomed pilot. Or a heroic struggle by a Bay Area passenger. Or a miscalculation by terrorists.

But if there was one glimmer of good news amid the numbing enormity of Tuesday's terrorist attacks, it shined in the wreckage of a United Airlines 757, a flight once bound for San Francisco and instead now strewn across a remote field in the coal country of southwestern Pennsylvania.

Unlike three other commercial jets that were purposely slammed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, United Flight 93, for some reason yet unknown, did not hit a terrorist's target Tuesday morning and did not kill thousands of people.

The flight crashed instead at 10:06 a.m. EDT in a wooded area 70 miles southeast of Pittsburgh, near Shanksville, Pennsylvania, two hours after it left Newark, N.J.

All 45 people on board were killed, said Bill Crowley, a special agent with the FBI in Pittsburgh. Among them were 38 passengers, five flight attendents and two pilots.

Minutes before the fiery impact, at least two passengers telephoned from the plane.

One man phoned 911, yelling to dispatchers "We are being hijacked! We are being hijacked!'' before the signal was lost. The other, Tom Burnett, 38, the vice president of a Pleasanton, Calif., medical devices company and father of three children, called his wife, Deena, and may have indicated he and other passengers were about to attempt to overpower the hijackers.

Burnett told his wife that somebody on the plane had been stabbed, said Father Frank Colacicco, of St. Isidore's Church in Danville.

"We're all gonna die, but three of us are going to do something,'' Burnett told his wife, according to Colacicco. He added: "I love you honey'' before the call ended.

FBI agents were interviewing members of the family Tuesday night.

The FBI said that 40 agents and more than 150 other investigators were combing the crash site as darkness fell, including agents from the Department of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, the FAA and the Pennsylvania State Police.

Like the three other doomed jets that took off, and then suddenly veered off course, United Flight 93 sharply turned south after nearing Cleveland. One Congressman told Knight Ridder that some investigators believe the plane's hijackers were attempting to crash into either Camp David, the presidential retreat located 80 miles south of the crash site, at Thurmond, Maryland, or the Capitol Building in Washington, D.C.

"There was concern that it was heading in the direction of Washington, D.C.,'' said Rep. Jim Moran, D-Virginia.

Moran said that Capitol police named the two potential targets in a briefing he received from them.

Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-California, described Tuesday as a national tragedy and the scope is only just beginning to sink in.

"At Pearl Harbor, there were 2,000 people killed,'' Feinstein said.

"This could be tens of thousands.''

United Airlines did not release the passenger list from Flight 93 on Tuesday. At least one other Bay Area resident was confirmed dead, a female student at Santa Clara University. The name of the woman, a junior, was not being released, pending notification of her family, said Barry Holtzclaw, a spokesman for the university.

"I'm shattered by this,'' said Holtzclaw. "''The scale of it, the enormity of it, the buildings and the loss off life. The mood of the campus tomorrow will be very very somber.''

It may be weeks before it is known what happened in the doomed flight, experts said.

"It fits the same pattern of the other ones,'' said a high-ranking FAA official. "The moves of the plane are similar to what you would see if a struggle or some violent problem occurred in the cockpit.''

Gary Joseph, who co-pilots United 747-400 flights from San Francisco to Shanghai, said he believes the pilots aboard Flight 93 tried to prevent the terrorists from taking control of the aircraft.

"They train you to do whatever they say, but that only goes so far,'' Joseph said. "If he had any idea what they were planning, I'm sure he tried to fight them off.''

Joseph said a pilot may try to make sharp turns and dive . . . much the way initial radar records show the plane did in its final minutes in the air . . . to throw a would-be hijacker off balance.

"There's been cases where they do that and get control back of the plane. But a jet can only take so much of a dive before it starts to fall apart, I don't know.''

Joseph said it wasn't clear whether the crew was a San Francisco-based one or a New York-based group, because the airline has crews stationed in each city.

No family members showed up at San Francisco International Airport to greet the passengers at its normal 11:15 a.m. arrival time, said Ron Wilson, spokesman for San Francisco International Airport. That is possibly because United employees in Chicago reached many of them before they left home.

Dozens of clergy members gathered at United's VIP lounge to await survivors. San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown cancelled his trip to meet the victims' families when it appeared nobody would show up.

The Boeing 757 seats about to 200 passengers, which means Flight 93 was less than a quarter full.

The crash scene is located near one of America's worst civilian disaster, the site of the 1889 Johnstown flood, in which 2,200 people perished when the South Fork Dam collapsed.

Jim Marker, a Somerset, Pennsylvania County Commissioner, visited the crash site and said the FBI was investigating the possibility that the plane suffered an explosion before it crashed. The passenger who phoned Westmoreland County dispatchers also said there was an explosion, the Associated Press reported.

"They are checking about a mile from the site for some debris that might show there was an explosion,'' said Marker. "They do believe there was that possibility.''

Others in the small town said the crash rocked the area, like an earthquake.

"It was 2 miles away, but it shook everything,'' said Bruce Grine, owner of Grine's Service Center in Shanksville. "It shook the windows. We saw smoke. Then the smell. Then somebody came running up the street and said a plane crashed. God, it was terrible.''







 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 134 of 783: Rob Glennie  (AotearoaKiwi) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (05:10) * 8 lines 
 
Hi all

First off, I extend my deepest sympathy to all who lost loved ones in today cowardly attacks. Second I call for a cool headed response (NOT one of a deranged lunatic hopping around like a crazed devil barking orders). I know that many of you are outraged and that some want war, but BELIEVE ME WHEN I SAY THIS: HASTE NEVER HAS AND NEVER WILL PAY OR BEGIN TO PAY FOR WHAT HAPPENED. Be patient and let the United States Government establish it's priorities and wait until they find AND confirm the culprits. Then AND ONLY THEN, will it be safe to let the Pentagon of the leash.

I am still coming to grips tonight some 14 hours after Mum tipped me off that the WTC twin towers had been destroyed by a 767 and a 757 and that the Pentagon had been hit by another 767. Although I now understand what happened the SHEER scale of planning that must have gone into the attacks, tell me one thing only:
The person/s who masterminded this evil have a monumental hatred for all things American. They are the sort of people who should be put on show trial in front of the whole nation, and assuming they are found guilty, should be executed in public.

Rob


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 135 of 783: olzuza  (olzuza) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (08:42) * 7 lines 
 
Hello everyone,
I am from Poland, when I heard the news yesterday I was stunned - I thought it was a kind of a joke and all those pictures which looked like taken from some movie. I am still in shock as well as my family and friends. I extend my sympathy too all Americans and people who lost someone important and loved. It's a tragedy for whole world and I hope that nothing else like this would never take place.

take care all of you who are in the middle of this tragedy and please,remember that whole civilizated world is with you.

Love,
Alexandra


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 136 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (09:18) * 22 lines 
 
"Taliban rulers deny bin Laden's involvement"

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/09/11/taliban-reax.htm

Olzuza, we are all feeling the sadness today, yesterday we were numb with
the shock of this horrible attack on America. This is unprecedented, the
biggest thing that has happened in my lifetime.

unidentified source:

"there's a specific code (7700) a pilot dials in when being hijacked,
which causes all sorts of bells and whistles to go off on a controller's
screen. *That* would be the reason those guys made them turn them off.
Not stupid, at all. Vile, despicable cretins, yes. A plane goes off
course, there's a time lag to 1) notice it, 2) inquire, 3) request
correction or further explanation, 4) decide there's a threat, 5) measure
its gravity, and 6) take action.

The first five steps are covered by dialing-in 7700, a motion in the
cockpit that's not inconsistent with any other miscellaneous fiddling with knobs
and switches necessary to fly the plane.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 137 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (09:28) * 12 lines 
 

http://www.wi2600.org/mediawhore/mirrors/sept-11-problems/asu/www.asu.net/wtc/otherpics/wtc35.jpg

http://www.wi2600.org/mediawhore/mirrors/sept-11-problems/asu/www.asu.net/wtc/otherpics/

This one is horrible:

http://www.wi2600.org/mediawhore/mirrors/sept-11-problems/asu/www.asu.net/wtc/otherpics/wtc55.jpg

A tower about to fall:




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 138 of 783: Anon  (curious) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (09:45) * 3 lines 
 
To find out more about donating online, check:
Red Cross and
Helping.org


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 139 of 783: Anon  (curious) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (09:46) * 2 lines 
 
oops, typo, the Red Cross is located at
http://www.redcross.org/


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 140 of 783: Eileen  (EileenG) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (10:11) * 11 lines 
 
I just can't watch TV anymore. I have to take a break from the unending surreal shots of the planes hitting the towers.

Those of you at Drool know I'm from the NY area. As a child, I watched the towers go up. Yesterday I watched them come down. Like Liz, I know people who worked there and in the nearby Wall St. area. If you've ever visited downtown NYC, you saw the size of these buildings. If you went up to Windows on the World, the public restaurant, you experienced how high they were. Yesterday, one of our local newscasters felt himself important enough to provide encouragement by declaring 'we made it through Oklahoma City and Columbine and we'll make it through this.' Not to minimize those other tragedies, but the enormous numbers of victims who lost their lives yesterday cannot be compared to those other incidents.

I now live outside DC (quite a distance from the Pentagon). Our normally quiet skies were filled with military aircraft yesterday. All's quiet again today.

My sister works in upper Manhattan. I'm still trying to find out if she made it out of the city last night.

I'll be back to the TV soon because I am fascinated by reports about the many calls made from the planes, how the FBI is progressing in their investigation (too much too little too late, IMO), information as to how these sociopaths pulled this off and stories from the survivors.

Lastly, I am trying to wrap my mind's eye around a picture of the NYC skyline without the towers. I drove past them on the Jersey side every day for years. I could see them from almost every town in which I've lived. I saw them this past Sunday and thought 'it's good to be home'. Their absence will forever be a reminder of yesterday's events and the lives lost.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 141 of 783: Anon  (curious) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (12:04) * 16 lines 
 
Dear Heavenly Father,

We are moved by the alarming news and crisis that our country is facing.
This, the greatest nation, founded in the belief that "In God We Trust" and
the "Land of the Free". Please have mercy on those suffering, hurting
and in fear, and give wisdom & strength to those who are assisting. May
the forces of evil be broken by your power and may we humble before thee,
our strength and refuge.

Give wisdom to our President and all our leaders and bring your
comforting peace through the power of your Holy Spirit.
Help us here to reach those that have been affected by this tragedy.

In the name of our Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus. Amen.

(Please send this to all your friends and create a prayer chain throughoutthis nation.)


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 142 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (13:13) * 76 lines 
 

Another batch of URLs from Phil Agre:

--



Wall Street Journal coverage
(appears to be available without a subscription)
http://interactive.wsj.com/pages/terattack.htm

Yahoo links to news stories etc
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Terrorism/

eyewitness accounts
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/talking_point/newsid_1537000/1537530.stm

online mechanisms for donating to the Red Cross
http://www.amazon.com/paypage/PKAXFNQH7EKCX
http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/relief-outside

legal coverage
http://www.law.com/

mailing list to connect people who can volunteer or provide resources
http://207.22.68.76/911volunteers.html

aircraft flight tracks
http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/spSec/wtcst.jsp

front pages of 50 newspapers' coverage of the attack
http://www.poynter.org/terrorism/pdf1.htm

Current Awareness via Streaming Audio/Video
http://gwu.edu/~gprice/audio.htm

Speech/Transcripts/Statements from US and Foreign Leaders
http://gwu.edu/~gprice/speech.htm

Anonymous Remailer Operators Start to Take Remailers Offline
http://www.inet-one.com/cypherpunks/current/msg00272.html

Middle East Newswire
http://www.middleeastwire.com/newswire/

Two Planes Hit Twin Towers at Exactly the Worst Spot
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-000073606sep12.story

Security Experts Knew a Major Attack Was Possible
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14031-2001Sep11.html

Insurance Cost for Terrorist Attack to Near $1 Billion
http://www.siliconvalley.com/docs/news/depth/insure091201.htm

Reports: Boston Investigators Find Evidence in Attacks
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010912/ts/attack_suspects_dc_2.html

civil engineering aspects of the building collapse
http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/wtc.htm

online discussion site for pilots
http://www.pprune.org/

Rescuers Struggle at Pentagon
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1539000/1539839.stm

Why the Killers Threaten World Prosperity
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/newsid_1538000/1538958.stm

In Shock, Teachers Downplay Tragedy
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-000073649sep12.story

EBay Cancels Auctions of Attack-Related Items
(some idiots were actually gathering rubble in order to sell it on eBay)
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-000073609sep12.story



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 143 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (13:19) * 15 lines 
 

From abcnews.com

ABCNEWS has learned that officials have identified all the hijackers, and
estimated there were three to five for each of the four passenger planes
involved. At least two of the hijackers were on the Immigration and
Naturalization Service "watch list," and it's still unclear whether the
individuals entered the United States illegally or whether they entered
before their names were placed on the list.
Most if not all of the hijackers were Egyptian or Saudi nationals, sources
said.
In Washington, State Department officials said they have intelligence
information that connects the attacks on the twin towers in New York and on
the Pentagon to fugitive Saudi millionaire Osama bin Laden.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 144 of 783: Laura   (LauraMM) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (13:31) * 1 lines 
 
Well it's here in Boston. This is ridiculous...


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 145 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (13:43) * 11 lines 
 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/bio.html

A bio on Bin Laden from pbs.org. Read the disclaimer that the source
is unnamed and the info differs from other bios.

Seems his father is from Yemen but moved to Saudi years before Osama
(one of 50 children? boggles the mind...) was born in '57. Father made
his money in Saudi as a construction mogul, from humble beginnings.

http://msnbc.com/news/190144.asp?cp1=1


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 146 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (13:52) * 345 lines 
 

Subject: Yesterday's bombings [4x]
Date: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 4:12 PM
From: nettime's compiler
Reply-To: "nettime's compiler"
To:


Table of Contents:

The Media: As an Attack Unfolds, a Struggle to Provide Vivid Imag
es to Homes
John Armitage


WTC/Pentagon attac

folks@arthide.de (folks)


Re: New York City

Andrew Ross


It was supposed to be such a beautiful day

"Ivo Skoric"




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:42:35 +0100
From: John Armitage
Subject: The Media: As an Attack Unfolds, a Struggle to Provide Vivid
Imag es to Homes


THE NEW YORK TIMES
SEP 12, 2001

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/12/national/12MEDI.html?pagewanted=print

The Media: As an Attack Unfolds, a Struggle to Provide Vivid Images to
Homes

By FELICITY BARRINGER and GERALDINE FABRIKANT

Television's broadcast networks and many of its cable channels - both
news and entertainment - scrapped their regular schedules yesterday.
Radio stations took live television news feeds. Two dozen newspapers
published special editions and Web sites threw out their advertising
and in some
cases stripped down to basic text and still images to help their
overtaxed computers handle a demand for news unlike any they had
experienced.

Between the moment when perplexed morning news broadcasters began
fielding calls from Greenwich Village residents who saw a low- flying
plane crash into One World Trade Center and the moment more than an
hour later when New York's twin towers crumbled into Roman candles of
smoky debris, the country's media outlets geared up to become the
public stage of a national emergency.

By noon, all four major television networks had agreed to share video
images. By midafternoon, almost all of AOL Time Warner's cable
channels, like TBS and TNT, were carrying CNN; Viacom's CBS News feed
was being carried by Viacom's music channels, VH1 and MTV; and Peter
Jennings of ABC News was appearing not just on his network, but on
Disney's ESPN channel
and all ABC radio stations.

Most of the networks used variations of the title adopted by CNN:
America Under Attack.

Images of billowing smoke from lower Manhattan and the low, smoldering
profile of the Pentagon, hit, like the Trade Center towers, by a
hijacked commercial jetliner, were dominant on all networks. Referring
to the unusual agreement to share images among the bitterly competitive
news divisions of the networks and CNN, the Fox News president, Roger
Ailes,
said: "All the networks decided that this is a national emergency.
We're
not keeping score today." Nor were they making much money, as they
largely scrapped commercial advertising.

In Washington, where the downtown had become a ghost town after the
federal government was shut down, delivery trucks for The Washington
Post headed for suburban 7- Eleven stores carrying a special edition
dominated by a two-inch headline, "Terror Hits Pentagon, World Trade
Center," with a
lead editorial headlined "War." Special editions were also published
by The Los Angeles Times, The Chicago Tribune, The Newark Star-Ledger,
The Charlotte Observer in North Carolina, The Austin American-Statesman
in Texas, not to mention small dailies like The LaCrosse Tribune in
Wisconsin.

Traffic at news Web sites soared, with 10 times or more the usual
number of users trying to log on, clogging the Internet and slowing
response time.

Because New York was not just ground zero of the opening attack but
also the heartland of the media industry, some of the most dramatic
early accounts were from correspondents working at or near their homes.
Don Dahler, an ABC News correspondent who covered recent civil wars in
Africa, was getting dressed for work in his third-floor apartment in
Tribeca,
perhaps half a mile from the World Trade Center, when he heard the
first plane hit.

"I heard what is a very familiar sound anywhere else in the world, in
war zones," Mr. Dahler said. "It sounded to me like a missile, a high-
pitched scream and a roar followed by an explosion, my mind was telling
me it's a missile. Then I saw this gaping wound in the World Trade
Center. I called into `Good Morning' immediately and started
reporting," standing on his sixth-floor rooftop with a cellular
telephone.

Mr. Dahler, just one of the network's sources, was not on the air when
he felt the first of the two towers collapse. "When it collapsed I
could feel a rumble, and I tried to interrupt to say that something was
happening right before my eyes," he said. "The building collapsed. I
was telling them it looks like its coming down, it looks like it's
coming down. They switched to me right after it had fallen."

If there were a few stutter-steps like that, it was not surprising. It
was one of the rare instances when television brought disaster into
American homes in real time.

The radical changes in the technology of news delivery, however, along
with the quality of video imagery gave most of the day's news
broadcasts the feeling of an epic disaster movie.

The only genuinely grainy imagery came from the most advanced and
portable equipment: CNN's satellite video phones, which allowed that
network alone to televise a news conference with the spiritual leader
of the Taliban
government in Afghanistan, the country that harbors the headquarters
of the accused terrorist, Osama Bin Laden. By evening, the same
equipment was showing tracer fire and explosions in Kabul.

Beyond the vivid pictures, the reporting included a number of mistakes
borne of rumors that sprang up throughout the day. CNN reported that
another plane was headed for the Pentagon. Fox News reported that the
State Department was on fire. CBS News reported that a second airplane
tried to attack the Pentagon. All the reports were later corrected.

The closest major news organization to the scene was The Wall Street
Journal, whose main offices nearby were evacuated at 9:15 a.m.
Reporters and editors worked from home or other Dow Jones offices from
New Jersey to Hong Kong to prepare a Wednesday issue.

Talk radio shows, which sometimes feed on inflammatory commentary,
were unusually low key yesterday, with hosts sympathizing or eliciting
information from eyewitnesses rather than goading.

On the New York radio dial, reporters at news stations struggled to
describe the breadth of the destruction. And talk radio hosts -
sometimes after ominous music played in the background - covered
subjects from airport security to retaliation.

The radio reports played a larger role than usual in bringing news to
the city, since the antennas that broadcast the signals of WABC and
WNBC were destroyed along with the twin towers. New Yorkers without
cable television - about 30 percent to 35 percent of the city's viewers
- could only get
WCBS, whose antenna is on the Empire State Building.

The radio journalists reverted to the techniques of Edward R. Murrow's
wartime broadcasts from London to make the story visual. On WCBS-AM,
the journalist Peter Haskell reported that ambulances were lined up "as
far as the eye can see on both sides of the West Side Highway." On
WINS, the
reporter Steve Kastenbaum said: "It looks like the entire city is just
walking home. The Brooklyn Bridge is a sea of people coming off the
F.D.R. Drive, walking down from Midtown, walking across the East River
to their destinations."

Elsewhere in the country, some stations used the event to set up a
dialogue with listeners. A Christian radio station in Los Angeles,
KFSG-FM, canceled commercial advertising yesterday until 6 p.m. and
used itsafternoon hours to take calls from listeners who wanted to talk
about the attacks.


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:16:08 +0200
From: folks@arthide.de (folks)
Subject: WTC/Pentagon attac

Historically speaking, THIS is the beginning of the new century,
11.09.2001.

Those who believe in something like humanity, whether the word has
been misused or not, whether someone is fighting against US policy or
not, feels with the innocent people who died and those who now bitterly
miss them.

folks


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:16:24 -0500
From: Andrew Ross
Subject: Re: New York City



As someone who's been moving around downtown New York yesterday and
this morning, I'm struck by how many paramilitary vehicles there are on
the streets. The National Guard is here, of course, but there are also
all sorts of very strange-looking vehicles (with unfamiliar acronyms
on the side, if they are identified at all) that you never see on
civilian streets, but which clearly belong to the relevant civil
authorities. All other things aside (which, I realize, is a large
proviso), the atmosphere
is neo-martial, and reminds one of how quickly a dense First World
metro area can and could be commandeered under other circumstances that
one is only left to imagine.




------------------------------

Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:22:14 -0400
From: "Ivo Skoric"
Subject: It was supposed to be such a beautiful day

Yesterday, it was such a beautiful sunny September day in New York
city that the only cloud in the sky was the one raising from the rubble
of the World Trade Center.

I don't think we can be sure as of yet who did it. Osama bin Laden and
his group are obvious suspects - because they already attacked WTC,
and maybe they just came back to finish the job. Hezbollah on the
other hand has the history of trying to crash a hijacked passenger
plane in a building.
And nobody even mentions the non-Arab, non-Palestine related options,
because they are simply to scary to contemplate: like what if this is
'domestic' terrorism?

Regardless, of who did it, however, this was an act of war. This was
the single largest atrocity committed against the U.S. on its soil
since the Declaration of Independence. It is also important to note
that the DoD's beloved Space Shield would do absolutely nothing to
protect the U.S. from such an attack that came from inside and was
executed by the tools of American corporate business (2 passenger jets
owned by the American
Airlines and 2 passenger jets owned by the United Airlines), used
against the symbols of American economic and military might. Doesn't it
look improbable that Pentagon got a direct hit? That was sure enough
to humble American arrogance. Yet, that was not enough for the
terrorists.

That's why I agree with Ruth Wedgwood, a Yale University law professor
and terrorism expert, that this is not only an act of war, but also a
war crime. Crashing a plane full of passengers in a busy city district
at the beginning of a workday should classify clearly as a war crime,
on pair with what people in former Yugoslavia or Rwanda did to each
other. New York yesterday and today feels like Sarajevo felt after
shelling the markeplace. Public transportation did not run, exits from
the city were
closed down, schools are closed, markets are closed, all airports
around the country are shut down, 4000 daily flights are grounded,
hospitals in the city are overwhelmed with hundreds, thousands of
injured, and we don't even know yet the number of victims. People are
eerily calm. Black teenagers here on my corner are unusually quiet and
still. It seems that all passengers in subways got a few more wrinkles
on their faces than they
had yesterday, and everybody is paying the fare, regardless of the
service doors being left wide open. The 'hyper- power' is on its knees.
UN, World Bank, Capitol, White House, Treasury, State Department and
Pentagon are evacuated. And New York will probably never be the same
again. I feel the same emptiness as I felt when Mostar lost the Old
Bridge.

Holy shit - UPS just this moment delivered a package to me -
functioning parcel service suggests return to 'normalcy', that's
encouraging.

About the perpetrators, there are several technical things that are
kind of clear: some of them had to be trained pilots capable of driving
most modern US passenger jets precisely (Iraqis?). The research of the
US flight schedules was done meticulously, as to get a couple of wide
fuselage planes, well filled with fuel (intended to fly accross the
continent), hitting the twin towers from various points of origins
within half an hour. Everything points to terrorists being well
rehearsed and well informed.

I don't see any other way but to have perpetrators and their
supporters brought to justice. Nobody quite expected such a massive,
well co-ordinated (4 airliners hijacked simultaneously at 4 different
airports) and, unfortunately, highly succesfull attack on the land of
the law, such as happened yesterday morning. September 11th will
perhaps be remembered in the world's history, because I can't imagine
world ever be the same
after today in regards to fighting terrorism.

I am obviously afraid that citizens will have to put up with even more
curtailing of their freedoms to assure their safety. I am just
thinking of what nightmare it is going to be to fly inside the US now,
with all the increased security that would be put in place to prevent
of this happening again - that's why, obviously, I would prefer that
the perpetrators are caught sonner than later.

As for the reasons - for quite a while we were all aware of how the
rule of American law may convey injustice to some people. It is this
feeling of injustice and the feeling of helplessness to prevent that
injustice, that breeds anger, rage and hate, and ultimately it breaks
out in irreversible acts of horrific terrorism. It is true that
Palestinians were and still are victims at the hands of the world. And
the routes for them to obtain redress are clogged on purpose for a
long time. So, for a quite a while they resort to terrorism, including
suicidal terrorism.

It is true that during NATO's bombing campaign over Yugoslavia, many
innocent Yugoslav citizens died. And it is also true that during the
Gulf War a much larger number of innocent Iraqis died. Judging by the
celebratory mood on streets of Gaza (and even some e-mail messages that
came from Belgrade), there are people who do feel a sense of poetic
justice in using American passenger planes as cruise missiles to
'punish' the cruise missiles makers. There is no doubt that in some
people's minds the U.S. 'deserved' such a reckoning. I hope the U.S.
would take this into consideration in its search for the
perpetrators and in whatever action it choses to take against them.

>From Manhattan:
ivo skoric





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 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 147 of 783: Beth  (Bethanne) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (13:55) * 5 lines 
 
The White House and ABC News have confirmed that the intended target of the plane that crashed in DC, was NOT The Pentagon. It was The White House. OMG !!

The White House have also confirmed that Air Force One and The President, were also intended targets. They have not revealed what brought them to this conclusion.

Thank God these other attacks didn't take place and, that the Secret Service took the evasive measures with Air Force One, that they did.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 148 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (13:55) * 242 lines 
 

From today's Vancouver Sun:

"Wednesday, September 12, 2001
OTTAWA (CP) - Thousands of Canadians from coast to coast responded to
calls for blood donations to help American victims of Tuesday's
catastrophic attacks in New York and Washington.

The hotline set up by Canadian Blood Services for those wishing to
donate has been tied up almost permanently, said spokeswoman Lorna
Tessier.

She urged people to persevere, even though no request for blood has
been received from U.S. authorities.

``We've had such an overwhelming response that the 1-888-2-DONATE line
has been very difficult to get through on.

``Right now, clearly, the clinics are overwhelmed and we are putting
on additional hours and additional clinics, but we don't want people to
get discouraged.

``We are going to need their blood. We're anticipating that the need
will come up.''

She said the agency doesn't have statistics yet on the number of
people who have come forward, but it is in the thousands."

I'd point out that nobody's actually asked us for blood yet, but
people just felt the need to do something to help.

From the National Post:
Canadians offer homes to stranded
400 international jets diverted across country

Wednesday, September 12, 2001
TORONTO and VANCOUVER - International passenger jets crammed Canadian
tarmacs yesterday after all United States airports were closed in the
wake of the terrorist attack that levelled the twin towers of the World
Trade Center in New York.

About 400 planes were expected to be diverted throughout the day,
pouring 10,000 people into Halifax alone.

By late afternoon, Vancouver International Airport had received 34
planes diverted from North American destinations, carrying as many as
6,000 people. Another 25 planes were expected at Lester B. Pearson
International Airport in Toronto. St. John's International Airport
closed its runways after taking in 27 aircraft with 5,000 passengers.
Fifty-seven flights were expected to land into the night at the airport
in Gander, Nfld.

At least 100 controllers and other staff were pulled out of courses
and called in on their time off to help handle the deluge of
international flights, said Paul Hornbeck, a spokesman for Nav Canada,
the agency that handles air traffic control at Canadian airports.

International arrival terminals across the country were choked with
people while departure areas were virtually deserted -- all outbound
flights across Canada were cancelled, except for humanitarian or
search-and-rescue missions, police and military flights.

Passengers stood in line with their luggage, waiting for hours to be
searched before they could be permitted to leave.

Bev Aurich, a traveller from Sydney, Australia, who had been headed to
Anchorage, Alaska, before being grounded in Vancouver, said she did
not mind the inconvenience.

"We shouldn't be upset about missing a little trip, when there is such
devastation in the United States. We're better to be delayed and be
comfortable than to keep to our schedule and risk something," she said.

In Toronto, some airport hotels reacted to the situation by increasing
their rates to the maximum legal tariff. Meanwhile, concerned
residents around the country showed up at airports to offer their homes
to travellers.

"I had to take the energy I felt and direct it," said Ena Bendon, a
Vancouver woman who showed up at the airport to offer accommodation. "I
thought of someone with kids here, terrified. I had to do something."

Lufthansa pilot Axel Algner was flying a passenger jet from Frankfurt
to Chicago when he was told there had been an incident in Manhatten and
all planes were being grounded. It wasn't until he landed his plane in
Toronto that he was informed of the details.

"What I thought is that it was a joke. I couldn't believe it, it's
still hard to believe. It just gives me goosebumps even talking about
it," he said.

Another pilot said he was instructed to lock his cockpit after being
told the news.

On the ground at Pearson, the airport began a news blackout at 10:30
a.m., according to one passenger.

Travellers grouped around fellow passengers with cellphones to learn
the details of what had happened. Others lined up to use payphones.
Rabbis and Roman Catholic priests were brought in to counsel
passengers.

In Calgary, which took at least ten diverted flights, every hotel room
was filled by early afternoon, but tourism officials said residents
were opening up their homes to travellers.

In Winnipeg, hotels were also booked solid by early afternoon,
prompting the city to invoke its emergency measures plan, transforming
public buildings into makeshift dormitories equipped with camp cots,
said Penny McMillan, of Tourism Winnipeg.

The airport took in 14 diverted domestic flights and three
international ones -- generating 1,500 overnight guests.

At Vancouver International Airport, Layne Daggett, the airport
chaplain, said he placed 500 people, but others still needed
accommodation.

"I have a strong faith that God is in control even in these kinds of
atrocities," he said.

Column by Margaret Wente, Globe & Mail (Toronto)
By MARGARET WENTE
From Wednesday's Globe and Mail


8:45 a.m., Eastern Daylight Time. A crack in the centre of the world.
Someone took revenge on America, and America was helpless.

Nothing there will ever be the same again.

A nation at the height of power, peace and prosperity, blessed by
every fortune, whose enemies, it seemed, were as harmless as a few
far-off fluffy clouds on a blazing blue September day.

A nation that Tuesday looked infinitely vulnerable.

It only took a few men who hate America to hijack its own commercial
airplanes and turn them into bombs. It only took a few to ram them into
America's most potent symbols of financial and military might.
America's sense of its own security exploded with those towers in a
cloud of smoke and dust.

Americans will never feel quite so safe again. Nor will any of the
rest of us, who looked to them to keep us safe, too.

Their defences were completely useless. Their astounding intelligence
and security machine, fuelled by billions and billions of dollars and
the best high-tech devices ever invented, could not keep the bad guys
out. They slipped through with ease, and struck the nation in its
heart.

The skyline of the capital of the world has a gaping wound where the
towers once stood; a scar that will last forever.

The senseless slaughter of civilians, until now, had always happened
somewhere else. Now the horror has come home.

Who did these things? All indications point to a sacred jihad from the
Middle East. Maybe it was Saddam Hussein, exacting his blood revenge
at last. Or Osama bin Laden, the millionaire fanatic who hates America
for sending troops to Saudi Arabia during the war in the Persian Gulf,
and for supporting Israel. " Blood, blood and destruction, destruction
," he commanded in a videotape to his followers last fall. To kill
Americans is holy.

Those who are responsible are most likely men from remote desert
lands. Men from ancient tribal cultures built on blood and revenge. Men
whose unshakable beliefs and implacable hatreds go back many centuries
farther than the United States and its young ideas of democracy,
pluralism and freedom.

Hard men, who hide out in desert bunkers and turn the instruments of
Western technology — its computers and CD-ROMs and videotapes and
airplanes — against the West. Men capable of flying Boeing 747s with
pinpoint, deadly accuracy, and of giving up their lives for the greater
glory of Allah, and of murder on a massive scale. Men who've mastered
all the modern Western technocratic skills, and who deploy them with
the implacable determination of fanatics.

Men whom most Americans, in their innocent and happy secularism, can
scarcely comprehend and hardly ever gave a thought since that nearly
bloodless cartoon war in the gulf.

That innocence is now gone.

For a decade now, these terrorists have been America's greatest
threat. Its military muscle could have obliterated them long ago, but
the will was never there. The tradeoffs were judged to be too great.
Mr. Hussein and Mr. bin Laden are experts at survival. They are hard to
catch, and surround themselves with men armed with guns and rocket
launchers. Americans would not have been able to stomach too much loss
of life to catch these men and the possibility of failure and political
embarrassment was too great. And no one wanted to create another
Islamic martyr.

Everything will change now, will tip and destabilize in ways far
beyond knowing. The Middle East, the world's economy, the American
intelligence establishment, its entire defence strategy, the way it
fights its foes. Millions of people of Islamic faith unfairly tarnished
by the terrorism of a few.

We have ahead the test by fire of a presidency.

We will have agonizing stories of human suffering, too many to bear.
We will have the dead, and countless families shattered, and grief and
mourning beyond measure.

But the wounds to America, though terrible, are very far from mortal.

"Americans will persevere," said one New York woman Tuesday, staring
hard into the camera. She had seen people die before her eyes. That was
her message to us and to the men who did this.

Shock and disbelief and grief will give way to anger and resolve. The
fanatics and the terrorists will not prevail. The wider Arab world will
not rally to support them, and America will not be driven away.
Americans will persevere.

But everything has changed, and the world will never go back to the
way it used to be, before the madness began, at 8:45 a.m. Eastern
Daylight Time.


BS:

Look, the Boston cell probably lived in Boston.
They've probably been there for years. The government
sheltering them is the American government.
There isn't anybody to invade. They're Egyptians
and Saudis. Thos governments are already our military allies.
We can't invade those countries. There's no place
to dress up and go shoot. This isn't World War II.

As for bin Laden, by the standards of the Islamic
resistance cells, the guy is a *humanitarian.*
He *builds their hospitals.* He's not the mastermind
of Al Qaeda. He's just a public face that the Western media
have projected onto the network. They don't have
or need a mastermind, and nabbing him, while satisfying, won't stop Al
Qaeda any more than nailing Pablo Escobar makes people stop huffing
crack.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 149 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (14:54) * 10 lines 
 
Thanks for the links, Terry. I found the one about the buildings' structural aspects fascinating.

Engineers suggested that the south tower of the World Trade Center collapsed first...because the plane hit the corner of the building, rather than the center, where there is more structural support.
When you watched the head-on film, you wondered why the plane was aimed at the side when it could've been placed more centrally.

But you have to wonder about the following statement:

The planes might have done more damage if they had hit the buildings lower, but they had to fly at a height of about 60 stories to clear nearby buildings.

More damage than what????


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 150 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (18:42) * 1 lines 
 
Even what was left standing is now crumbled into the pit from whence it arose. And thanks for telling future terrorists where exactly to hit a building to do the most damage, media people. I still cannot believe it crumpled like a toy like that. They all did. And so did their inhabitants. I turned on NPR this morning for a break from the news, and they were playing dirges. It was too much! Thanks, all, for your support in what seemed like a cold world before this happened. I wonder what I will feel when the numbness and disbelief wears off...


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 151 of 783: Lucille Oftedahl  (alyeska) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (20:40) * 3 lines 
 
Will the numbness ever really wear off.

Someone posted on Ramble that her neighbors and their 2 children were on the plane that crashed into the Pentagon.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 152 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (20:46) * 16 lines 
 
from email:


"In the days and weeks ahead, it's important for Microsoft and for
each of us individually to think about how we can help. As a company,
Microsoft is today making a $10 million contribution to assist those
who have been impacted by the tragedy. We are contributing $5 million
in cash to the September 11 Fund, created by the United Way of New York
City and The New York Community Trust. In addition to cash, we are
also contributing people and expertise. We have committed up to $5
million in technical assistance, including Microsoft Consulting
Services and software to assist in the recovery effort. We also are
in contact with business customers who have been severely impacted by
yesterday's tragedy to see what we can do to assist them."




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 153 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (21:32) * 1 lines 
 
Penn Station and the Empire State Building being evacuated.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 154 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (21:45) * 1 lines 
 
Bomb threat - no bomb found. People allowed back in. They now take all threats seriously!!!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 155 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (21:50) * 24 lines 
 
Thursday 13 September 9:14 AM









Bin Laden under house arrest: report
Afghanistan's ruling Taliban militia had placed alleged terrorist mastermind Osama bin Laden under house arrest in the wake of the suicide attacks on the United States, an Arabic online newspaper reported.

Quoting "fundamentalist Arab sources", Ilaf said the "Taliban have arrested Osama bin Laden before placing him under surveillance with several of his assistants," including the head of the Egyptian branch of Al-Jihad Ayman Al-Zawahri and bin Laden's military commander, Muhammad Atef Al-Makni.

"A number of Afghan fighters are under house arrest along with bin Laden," said the report late Wednesday.

But a diplomat at the Taliban's embassy in Abu Dhabi said he could not confirm the report.

"All we know is that he (bin Laden) is somewhere in Afghanistan, but we are not aware if he is under house arrest," the diplomat said.

Bin Laden and commander Atef have been indicted for the 1998 bombings of the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania.

Bin Laden has emerged as the prime suspects in yesterday's kamikaze hijacked passenger jet strikes on New York and Washington.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 156 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (21:53) * 6 lines 
 
I don't know how true this is or not. It was posted on yahoo.com in Australia.

http://au.dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/20010913/aapworld/1000336445-1141825578.html

I don't know why there's not mention of this on CBS, which I'm watching as I write this.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 157 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (22:06) * 107 lines 
 
More information all over the net.


status of the investigation
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16714-2001Sep12.html

Flight 93 Passenger Said He Planned Action
http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/pit/news/stories/news-95780920010912-110907.html

Controllers' Tale of Flight 11
http://www.csmonitor.com/earlyed/earlyUSA4.html

FBI Agents Search Hotels; Arrests Made
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/957448/detail.html

animation of the routes of flights 11, 193, and 175
http://pull.xmr3.com/p/29594-9681/22024263/aal11.html
http://pull.xmr3.com/p/29594-9681/22024277/ual193final.html
http://pull.xmr3.com/p/29594-9681/22024274/ual175_aal11.html

Somerset Crash Scene Searched; "Hero" May Have Aborted Terror Mission
http://www.post-gazette.com/breaking/20010912somersetp3.asp

Cell Calls From Planes Reveal Horror
http://msnbc.com/news/627214.asp

How the World Trade Center Fell
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1540000/1540044.stm


role of the Internet

Net Offers Lifeline Amid Tragedy
http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-7132246.html

World Trade Center Staff Sent E-Mails After Planes Struck
http://www.itn.co.uk/news/20010912/business/12cantor.shtml

Help Sites Spring Up in Aftermath of WTC Assaults
http://www.bizreport.com/article.php?art_id=2113


response

Terrorism and Children
http://www.ces.purdue.edu/terrorism/children/
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Sept01/Garbarino.kids.bombing.lgk.html


comment

Chronic Underfunding of US HUMINT Plays Role in Intelligence Failures
http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/jdw/jdw010911_1_n.shtml

Michael Moore's commentary
http://www.michaelmoore.com/2001_0912.html

On the Bombings, by Noam Chomsky
http://www.lbbs.org/chomnote.htm

The Best and Worst From Our Leaders During Crises
http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=11909

Terrorists Are Made, Not Born
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2001/09/12/blowback/

The Rhetoric of War
(with examples from editorial pages)
http://www.marginalia.org/war.html

an example of that rhetoric
http://www.nationalreview.com/kudlow/kudlow091101.shtml


background

background on the Mt. Weather bunker where the politicians were probably
taken
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/c3i/mt_weather.htm

outline of relevant anti-terrorism etc laws
http://news.findlaw.com/legalnews/us/terrorism/laws.html

Airport Access Control
(one of the security reports that was never properly acted on)
http://cas.faa.gov/ig5.pdf


news

Arab newspapers
http://www.the-saudi.net/arab-world/media/newspapers-links.htm
http://www.amin.org/jourmag/

French language news sources on the attack
http://www.tv5.org/nyc/

Nous Sommes Tous Americains
http://www.lemonde.fr/article/0,5987,3222--221600-,00.html

worldwide news in English
http://www.kidon.com/media-link/english.shtml

Thousands of Newspapers on the Net
http://www.onlinenewspapers.com/

end


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 158 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (22:17) * 1 lines 
 
Be happy you don't live in Hawaii. We Get NO MAIL until the flights resume.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 159 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (22:24) * 1 lines 
 
I'm not going to be happy I don't live in Hawaii, that's too much to ask!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 160 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (22:31) * 59 lines 
 
a report from Afghanistan:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/13/international/asia/13AFGH.html

ABUL, Afghanistan, Sept. If there are Americans clamoring to bomb Afghanistan back to the Stone Age, they ought to know that this nation does not have so far to go. This is a post-apocalyptic place of felled cities, parched land and downtrodden people.

The fragility of this country was part of the message the Taliban government conveyed in a plea for restraint issued late tonight.
It said in part, "We appeal to the United States not to put Afghanistan into more misery because our people have suffered so much."

Whatever Afghanistan's current cataclysm, its next one seems to require little time to overtake it. Wars fought by sundry protagonists have gone on now for 22 consecutive years, a remorseless drought for 4. Since 1996, most of the nation has been ruled by Taliban mullahs whose vision of the world's purest Islamic state has at least as much to do with controlling social behavior as vouchsafing social welfare.

The accused terrorist Osama bin Laden has found a home here, angering much of the world. In 1998, America fired a volley of more than 70 cruise missiles at guerrilla training camps reportedly operated by the Saudi multimillionaire. Now, there seems to be the prospect of another barrage, with Afghan hospitality to the same man as the cause.

As fear of an American attack mounted, the Taliban's senior spokesman in Kandahar, Abdul Hai Mutmain, called the few foreign reporters here to issue the statement, which in part defended Mr. bin Laden:

"These days, Osama bin Laden's name has become very popular and to an extent it has become a symbol. These days, even to the common people, Osama bin Laden's name is associated with all controversial acts. Osama bin Laden does not have such capabilities. We still hope sanity prevails in the United States. We are confident that if a fair investigation is carried out by American authorities, the Taliban will not be found guilty of involvement in such cowardly acts."

The statement also said, "Killing our leaders will not help our people any. There is no factory in Afghanistan that is worth the price of a single missile fired at us. It will simply increase the mistrust between the people in the region and the United States."

Whatever else there is to say about this entreaty, one part that is indisputably true is that this land-locked, ruggedly beautiful nation is in absolute misery.

Here in Kabul, the capital, roaming clusters of widows beg in the streets, their palms seemingly frozen in a supplicant pose. Withered men pull overloaded carts, their labor less costly than the price of a donkey.

Children play in vast ruins, their limbs sometimes wrenched away by remnant land mines. The national life expectancy, according to the central statistics office, has fallen to 42 for males and 40 for females.

The prolonged drought has sent nearly a million about 5 percent of the on a desperate flight from hunger. Some have gone to other Afghan cities, others across the border. More than one million are "at risk of starvation," according to the United Nations.

Famine is the catastrophe Afghans are used to hearing about. Few yet know of the threat of an American reprisal. The Taliban long ago banned television, and the lack of electricity keeps most people from listening to radio.

The nation's 100 or so foreign aid workers suffer no such telecommunications handicaps, however, and today many of them began to flee their adopted home, fearing either the havoc of American bombs or the wrath of subsequent Afghan outrage.

Around noon, a special United Nations flight evacuated the first of the expatriates. The remaining foreigners are expected to leave on Thursday, as will three, and perhaps all four, of the American parents here to observe the trial of their children, among eight foreign aid workers accused by the Taliban of preaching Christianity.

As foreigners left, the Taliban took unusual precautions: they began searching every vehicle entering government compounds. Visitors were carefully frisked.

But however much the Taliban hierarchy was beginning to fret, streets and bazaars were a picture of normality. Word has spread slowly about the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington. And even when everyday Afghans heard the news, there were no accompanying video images to sear the horror into their memories. Personal conversations only carried the dull stimuli of abstract words: hijacked planes and collapsed buildings.

Khair Khana, a man selling fertilizer in a market, knew just a bit about the attack. He thought a plane had crashed into the White House. And he considered the perpetrators, whoever they are, to be "enemies of God," though he also felt "Americans should look into their hearts and minds about why someone would kill themselves and others" in such a way.

He had not thought much about an American retaliation against Afghanistan. When he did consider it, standing in a ramshackle collection of stalls, he shrugged and said: "Americans are powerful and can do anything they like without us stopping them."

Nearby, a tailor, Abdul Malik, saw God's justice in America's pain because, as he understands it, the United States has armed the Afghan resistance to fight against the Taliban. "So they at least now know how it feels in their own country," he said.

As for Mr. bin Laden, the tailor considered judgment of him to be God's affair. "If Osama is Islam's enemy, he should be gotten rid of," he said. "But if he is a good Muslim and wants Islam to and if America wants him then we hope he destroys America."

The common people of Afghanistan are often circumspect with their opinions. As one man said today: "Nobody here talks wholeheartedly any more; it can be dangerous."

The Taliban are credited with improving safety. They disarmed the population, they put an end to banditry. But the security has come at a steep price.

Women have been forced into head-to-toe gowns known as burqasand evicted from schools and the workplace. Men are obligated to wear long beards or face jail. Banned are musical instruments, chessboards, playing cards, nail polish and neckties. Cheers at soccer matches are restricted to "Allah-u-akbar,"or God is great. Freedom of speech has bowed to religious totalitarianism.

Various Taliban police forces patrol the streets. Today, in a derelict building that is used as a precinct office, one 25-year-old constable sat on the floor beneath a single dangling light bulb. His name was Muhammad Anwar. He had heard something about the attack in America but he had no idea how many were killed or what cities were involved. Indeed, it seemed unlikely that he had ever heard of New York.

"Attacks like these are not a good thing because Muslims live all over the world and Muslims may have been killed," Mr. Anwar said hesitantly. By his reckoning, Americans were enemies of Afghanistan, as were Jews and Christians. He thought about this a bit more and retracted it partially. "There must have been all kinds of people in the building, not just bad Jews but good Jews, not just bad Christians but good ones."

He remembered something he had learned in his madrassa, or religious school. "It is un-Islamic to kill innocent people," he said.






 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 161 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (22:32) * 1 lines 
 
You're not any different, Marcia. Mail is not going between cities on the mainland either.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 162 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (22:33) * 3 lines 
 
I heard mail wasn't going over 300 miles from it's point of origin.

The airlines carry most of the mail but they may not be allowed to carry it any more.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 163 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (22:35) * 1 lines 
 
Yup, back to barge and 2-week mail. From the west coast. It is nice to know there is company in the misery of Paradise.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 164 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (22:42) * 135 lines 
 
This very thought provoking piece was written by the impassoned Gerard Van der Leun, who has been on the scene all along in
lower Manhattan.

All day the images have repeated themselves on television
while the smell of the smoke persisted in my rooms. Off and
on, all day, I walked to the promenade to look at the reality of it
and watch the smoke that didn't stop. It will now play itself out,
over and over again in my mind, until the day of my own death.

Television and reality. It is very difficult to separate the two,
and when one has no reality, television is the thing that replaces
it.

And because it is through television that those responsible for
this monstrous act receive their impression of this country I
believe they have made a fundamental miscalculation about the
deeper nature of the United States. A miscalculation that will
cause to be visited upon them what I pray will be a terrible
lesson; a lesson that will make the survivors envy the dead.

If you look at television and the endless products of pap and
nonsense that are piped out of the media centers of the United
States, it is easy to see us as a weak, self-obsessed and foolish
people. And many of us are that, even if we pretend to be other
than weak, self-obsessed and foolish.

We have sitcoms and MTV. We have endless opinions about
things which are not really central to serious life questions and
serious policy decisions.

Our young people look foolish in their vanity and their
fashions. Our military institutions are often ridiculed. Our
entertainments are light and vapid. Many in positions of
influence give short shrift to millions more with deeply held
religious and traditional political convictions.

Our "major" issues on a day by day basis rarely rise above the
level of fretful worry about the "safety of restaurants that allow
smoking," or whether or not a flower will be threatened by an
oil well. These are serious issues to many Americans, and it is
easy to see why such wet and weak concerns would lead others
elsewhere in the world to hold us in contempt as a weak and
decadent society that cannot defend itself against attack.

They see our men as feminine and our women as masculine
and, to the fundamentalist mind, this signals a weakness in the
blood and bone of the nation.They believe that they can
attack such a society with a kind of impunity, or with the
expectation of a careful and delicate response. They even note
that our President is a man who communicates in a clumsy
way, who is an illegitimate ruler, and who does not have the
support of many of the ruling elites of the country. They hold
him to be easily frightened and stupid.

And perhaps he is many, if not all, of these things: clumsy,
weak, illegitimate, frightened and stupid.

But it will not, in the long run, matter. And I pray it does not
avail them. That is all the television America.

But there is and always has been another America, and it is this
America that I hope will emerge from this day and remind all
those who seek to harm us that we can be a nation that is as
terrible as it seems foolish. That we are a country of deep
resolve and capable of striking back in cold anger without
compassion or regret. That we are, as the Japanese knew and
were to discover, a sleeping giant and you wake us at your own
risk. And once woken we will destroy you, and then rebuild you.
The Japanese had their lesson and have learned. Germany had
it's lesson and has learned. Now it is the turn of a number
of nations in the middle east.

We will first tend to our dead. Many funerals will take
Place over the next month or so. At the same time we will also
prepare for our vengence and I pray it will be terrible
and without hesitation or compassion until all terrorists
and all the villages, cities, and nations that support
them are reduced to rubble.

This will be an America whose anger is not hidden beneath
grief and the committment to save those not yet dead in
the rubble of New York and Washington.

This is the America you see when you watch the head of the
Fire Department of New York try to express his feelings at
losing 300 men in one terrible moment. This is the America of
the thousands of rescue workers on the job tonight trying to dig
through the rubble. This is the America of terrible resolve that
you can read on the face of the Head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
when he states the military is ready to do whatever is required
of it. "Whatever is required of it",and I pray we require them to
visit horror on our enemies that is a thousand fold worse than
what we saw today.

You see, it doesn't really matter "who" is the President. It
matters only that there is a President.

The President is only one man and in times like this he does not
really have to lead. He has only to follow and get out of the
way.

After that what takes place will be done by many, many others
in the hundreds and thousands. These people will not be a
group of lame celebrities with their puling little concerns whose
lives are just roles on television. They will not be a host of
sensitive new-age babblers whose fantasies of a perfect world
blind them to the evil of this one and the need to tear it out root
and branch. These will be Americans with terrible tools and with
even more terrible weapons, and the skill and the will to use
them. They will be filled with a terrible intensity and, I hope,
a deep sense of mission which will not be lightly put aside.

This mission should be clear to everyone who has some
experience of the world and how the world operates... how
reality operates. This mission should be nothing less than one
that is willing to use whatever means necessary to target
terrorism and to destroy it, wherever it exists. If this means the
wholesale destruction of nations, so be it.

This mission should be to remind the world that while we are a
nation committed to peace, we are a nation to be feared at war.
We have the power to do this. We must use it without
hindrance. If peace needs to be purchased with the sword, we
should be ready to do this. We must become what we were
during the Second World War - ruthless and unrelenting.

Those who think we are only what they see on our foolish
television, need to have a hard and burning lesson on who we
are when we decide to turn off the sit-coms and get real.

If we cannot do this, we will suffer this again and we will
deserve it. The time to fill ourselves with the resolve to crush
this monster is now and I pray we are up to the task.

Thanks Gerard.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 165 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (22:55) * 192 lines 
 
More from Gerard.

attack.20.430: Gerard Van der Leun (boswell) Tue 11 Sep 01 08:20


I watched this happen. The enormity of it cannot be
communicated.

Vile and bestial.

We need to destroy any and all capacity anywhere to
do anything like this happening ever again.

There were thousands in those buildings. Thousands.

There is no justice swift enough or sure enough.

But all that we have must be brought forward and used
without restraint.

This is an act of war beyond Pearl Harbor.

Military jets overhead again.

More ash on the street.

attack.20.465: Gerard Van der Leun (boswell) Tue 11 Sep 01 08:34


I am cooled down. Way down.,

This is pure evil.



attack.20.725: Gerard Van der Leun (boswell) Tue 11 Sep 01 12:33



There is no more World Trade Center visible
from the Promenade. But you can smell it
from there a sort of burnt stench as if
someone lit newspaper in a trash can and
then poured water on it. That kind of
wet burnt stench.

It is bright in the sunshine now except
for where the Trade Centers stood and there
is still a plume of thick brown smoke
mouldering up from there and making the
sun behind it look dim.

Just now I saw three large military
helicopters land across the river from
the Heights on the big pad at the foot
of Wall Street. People on the streets
are talking quietly man of them on cells
now that some of those nets are back up.

Everything is as quiet as it was this morning
When I got up and began to take a shower.

Showering I felt a vibration shake my building
in Brooklyn Heights like a subway train
passing deep underneath the structure. I didn't
think much of it. I've felt similar vibrations
before.

Getting out I was dressing and I heard the
second explosion from the second plane
striking the buildings.

I turned on the radio and found out what was
happening.

I dressed and left the house and walked a
block to the Promenade at the edge of
Brooklyn Heights and saw both towers in
flames sending huge gouts of smoke into the
air.

You don't know what to think. You don't
know what to feel. You are just reacting. The
promenade was jammed with people with more
arriving.

Then as I watched the first tower just imploded
and plunged, it seemed to me, straight down
and a huge brown and black rolling cloud of
smoke came boiling through all the streets
between the building and surged upward and
took over the sky.

You could see bright shiny bits of metal
squares tumbling up and down and drifting
out of the smoke that moved up and blew out
to the south east... it was like confetti or stuff
tossed out of windows in a ticker tape parade.
I felt the sound before I heard it and it shook
everything around me. I heard gasps and
screams around me. People were turning
away. Everyone with children was leaving the
promenade. Some were moving closer.

The smoke took over everything. I knew that
anyone in that building was dead and I started
to shake and to weep and to look around at the
others who were in all states of reaction. And I
had to go back to my house to regroup.

After I was in the house for a few minutes I
heard another larger explosion. I went back
out and down to the promenade again but this
time I couldn't see the sky as I had before.
This time the whole sky had been darkened
and, the wind having shifted, this fine white
ash was swirling down the street. Not heavy,
but everywhere around me and it was settling
down lightly on all the surfaces.

When I got to the promenade again the entire
southern tip of Manhattan was enveloped in a
dirty brown cloud, No buildings visible at all.
Nothing. It filled the sky and made it dark.
Turning the corner if you looked uptown past
the Brooklyn Bridge which was filled with
hordes of people walking towards the
Brooklyn shore you could see the buildings
start to emerge from the smoke. People were
sparse on the promenade now although down
towards the end there were more and if you
walked down there you could see a little bit
into the downtown section of Wall street. And
there were ferries moving out of the smoke at
high speed.

And then I started to hear the military jets but I
didn't see them. But no other planes are to be
seen.

Now it is still smoking there. The trade centers
are just gone. Erased. 50,000 people they say
work there and 150,000 pass through.

What do I feel? I don't know what I feel
except that I want vengeance and complete
vengeance. I want everything this country
possesses put onto the people who did this,
and the people who supported this act, and the
people who believe this is the way in which
political ends are achieved. I want there to be a
war and a big war until these people are
eradicated who ever they are and where ever
they are. I want it made clear that anything
even approaching this evil act will be met with
utter destruction - people, families, villages,
cities, nations. This is an act of war and war
must be the response.

We will be having a long series of mass funerals
for many weeks. I only hope that this country
finds the stomach and the resolve to carry
retribution forward until it is complete.

That is what I feel, now, today. And I'm not
alone. I'm not alone at all.




attack.20.733: Gerard Van der Leun (boswell) Tue 11 Sep 01 12:42


We need to be in a state of War and to pursue
the real aims of war. Against what country?
Against a list of countries that support, harbor,
or approve of terrorism.

A list of countries. All of them. And we need
to take action that is terrible and unilateral.

Individuals, families, villages, cities, nations..
all must be pursued and eliminated.

There needs to be revenge and there needs to
be a balancing of the scales.

This is the greatest single evil act against
Americans in history.

It cannot be allowed to stand.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 166 of 783: Liz K  (ekelley) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (22:55) * 3 lines 
 
that's exactly how I feel.

i found my friend who works for oem, btw. he's ok. he was evacuated when the mayor was from 7 WT. he told me about some of the things he saw... i started to cry. he's still in shock. God bless America.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 167 of 783: Liz K  (ekelley) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (22:59) * 1 lines 
 
terry, what address are you finding this on??


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 168 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (23:00) * 1 lines 
 
Wow Liz, I'm so glad he's safe. Aren't these words from Gerard pregnant with feeling from someone who's been there, smelled and tasted the horror first hand? Powerful, heartfelt words.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 169 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (23:03) * 92 lines 
 
Gerard posted this at well.com and gave me permission to repost.

It's not on a public web address.

More . . .

Gerard Van der Leun (boswell) Wed 12 Sep 01 08:05

To answer leroy, I am back at my absurd day-job. So far I'm just about
the only one here. Maybe eight people out of 200+.

I don't know quite why I am here, but then, in truth, I'm never sure
why I am ever here other than that my personal life obligations
require me to be here. That may have to change.

At any rate, I woke up and could only take about five minutes of the
endlessly repeated images of disaster, and having, literally nothing
better to do, decided to try and come in.

I first walked to the Promenade to see where the Towers were. The vile
smoke blooming across the river was still there as it has always been,
probably as it always will be in my mind where I will see it first as
that moment when the first tower went down carrying thousands to a
death I cannot imagine.

Still there. And the faint smell lingers too. And there were small
clumps of people standing around, one couple even posing for a picture
against the new skyline.

Then I walked through streets in the Heights that barely had any
people on them. Usually full and bustling even on holiday weekends. Now
just some elderly people moving slowly and a few clots of Jehovahs
Witnesses in their cleaned and pressed clothing going down to put out
what I am sure will be an especially "We told you so" issue of the
Watchtower.

Clark Street station shut down with a few police directly people to
the Jay street station. Buy a New York Post because I've read the
Times. Walk to Jay Street in the heart of the Brooklyn government
center across streets with few pedestrians and no traffic except for
police, fire and security vehicles cruising aimlessly about or parked
at the curb.

Security in front of the courts and the city offices lounging in the
bright sunshine of this second day of Indian Summer weather.

Down into the Jay Station and a very sparsely occupied A train. We set
off on a slow, very slow trip into Manhattan. Several people are
reading bibles but most of the 15 or so people are just staring into
space and looking vaguely alarmed whenever the train halts between
stations -- which is often.

I spend this time reading the New York Post which has, inside, a
picture of the exterior of one of the towers just before it collapsed.
In this picuture I can count around 24 people poking their heads out
of the windows or actually on the outside of what has to be the
nintieth floor of the towers. All of them, ALL OF THEM, about to ride
this building down into oblivion and you know that THEY ALL KNOW THIS.


Next to this is a picture of the side of the Tower and a large empty
space on the left which is thin air. In this space, close to the
tower you can see five to seven people falling with nothing but space
above and below them, falling straight down into doom rather than be
burned alive.

Finally, the train pulls into 23rd Street and halts. After a minute or
so you can hear the announcer telling us that we will be held in the
station for some time because of a "police investigation" in Penn
Station, my destination.

I get out and go up to the street to walk the rest of the way. An I
walk into a Manhattan I have never seen in the almost 30 years that
I've been here. Streets almost utterly clear of traffic for as far
uptown or downtown as you can see on 8th Ave. Nearly the same thing on
7th.

A smattering of pedestrians that grows somewhat thicker as you
approach Penn Station. A nail salon open but with nobody getting their
nails done that I can see.

Extortionate parking lots that are usually jammed with cars almost
empty and with nobody there to collect the money.

On the street parking? Oh, we've got it now.

Everywhere the hush. Everywhere. Like a ghost town with real ghosts
now walking among us. People just standing around, people talking
softly on cell phones, and people talking to themselves. On every
corner small groups walking slowly into the street or ambling along the
sidewalks as if nothing they normally do on Wednesdays in New York
City is really all that important after all.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 170 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (23:05) * 86 lines 
 
Gerard Van der Leun (boswell) Wed 12 Sep 01 19:05


On blood and the giving of it in New York.


It is important to do this, but no longer because of the need.

It is pretty clear at this point in the evening of day 2 in
New York that the city has more than enough of what it needs
to cover for this present emergency.

Still, people should give because it is something than they
can give. That is the need it fills.

As for blood for the wounded and the suffering, there is now
a sufficient quantity.

And sadly this is because, with the exception of a few
miracles that I hope will happen over the next few days,
there will not be large numbers of injured beyond those who
are already receiving treatment.

We are now starting to see the bodies emerge and they will
continue in a ghastly parade of orange body bags for weeks now.

Soon, tomorrow and over the weekend, the funerals and the memorials
will begin. And they will go on and on and on.

We will have, if we are *fortunate* 10,000 funerals in this city
in the coming weeks.

Let me say that again: Ten *thousand* funerals.

Try, right now, to close your eyes and visualize this number of
funeral ceremonies of every type and description and religion.

You cannot do it because the enormity of it is too much for
the human mind and soul.

But we will have them, one by one and in groups.

And here is another fact that comes along behind this number.

We do not have enough graves.
We do not have enough crematoriums.
Many will go unburied for weeks.
Many will be burned because that will be the only
choice.
Many will have to be moved by train, plane, or
van to some other place in the state, country,
or the world.

And we will bury a thousand, and then another thousand, and
another.

And still the orange body bags will come up out of the pile
and the pit one by one by one and lie in rows.

And this will go on for weeks if not months.

Think about what this will be like. Just stop and try
to really see it.

And then think this: No matter what many may feel now about
the wisdom or the goodness or the morality of retribution,
there will come a time during this parade of our dead
when this country, already uniting in a way I cannot remember
in my 55 years, will have even a greater sea-change of
spirit and rage.

Many of those who do not really feel this now, for whatever
enlightened or unenlightened reason, will feel this change
and become part of it.

There will be those who do not, a smaller and smaller part
of us as the days go by, and they will in the end be left
behind.

But by far the most of us will be changed by this, even
if now we are not.

Ten thousand funerals. We cannot imagine it, and yet we will
live it. And I hope that each one of us can bear witness
to as many as we can bear. It is the least of our duties.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 171 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (23:19) * 1 lines 
 
Thanks for that Terry. G's first post is amazing. It says beautifully the resolve and structure of America. Thanks for sharing it.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 172 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (23:29) * 1 lines 
 
And his second one is even more powerful. Beware the wrath of righteous indignation.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 173 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (23:50) * 1 lines 
 
Thank you, Gerard, for speaking so eloquently what we were all feeling. Ten THOUSAND is the size of a good-sized town. Imagine your entire city dead...


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 174 of 783: Beth  (Bethanne) * Wed, Sep 12, 2001 (23:59) * 1 lines 
 
The NY Port Authority is now putting the potential death toll at 20 thousand. I shudder to think what made them increase this up from the earlier figure of 10 thousand. Hopefully, it is just pure conjecture, as the figure of 20 thousand, is just beyond comprehension.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 175 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (00:36) * 15 lines 
 
Never forget!!!

Hawaii was shocked into action by terrorist acts thousands of miles away yesterday, putting
isle military bases on highest alert, grounding air traffic and sending many residents to blood
banks and churches.

U.S. Navy warships were patrolling the West Coast and Hawaii, ready to respond to any
terrorist threat. Lt. Cmdr. Jeff Gordon, a Pacific Fleet spokesman at Pearl Harbor, said the
15 ships patrolling Hawaii waters were deployed or redirected as a precautionary measure,
not because of a specific threat.

Military bases in Hawaii remained closed today to those without military identification for the
second straight day after yesterday's plane hijackings and crashes.

More http://starbulletin.com/2001/09/12/news/


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 176 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (00:43) * 3 lines 
 
Actually, 20,000 was about what I had imagined from the beginning, given the capacity of the two buildings, number of people per floor, etc. Over 200 floors. There could be easily 100 people per floor, despite the steady stream of people getting out after the first attack.

I remember one newsperson saying that highest number of American casualties on a single day was in the Civil War battle of Antietam, where about 23,000 were killed.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 177 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (00:53) * 10 lines 
 
I wonder if we will ever get an accurate accounting. The fires continue to burn deep inside the hole made by one of the towers. It will simply have to burn itself out since it is too hot and too dangerous to get to now. Frightening!

I was asked to post this and so I shall:

Flags Across America
To show those terrorists that we Americans stick together, FRIDAY SEPTEMBER
14 is "Flags Across America." All Americans are asked to display the
American flag either in their homes or cars. Let's keep the meaning of
UNITED in "United States". Pass this onto as many people as you know.
THANK YOU.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 178 of 783: Beth  (Bethanne) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (00:58) * 1 lines 
 
I know Karen, I know... When that figure of 10,000 was initially announced, I thought it was too low, considering the massive amounts of people in the 2 towers. But after a trajedy like this, it is easy and comforting to stick your head in the sand and try to pretend the worst is not going to happen. All too soon, the cold hard reality will get to you, no matter how long you try to put it off.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 179 of 783: Anon  (curious) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (01:12) * 133 lines 
 
This is YOUR LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEM, a free newsletter
sharing life, love and laughter, published by Steve Goodier.
http://www.lifesupportsystem.com

I asked for it! I invited a response and now am flooded with
mail! It may take days to go through it all. Today I printed some
of YOUR words in lieu of my usual message. I hope you feel
encouraged by the spirit in which they were written. ~ Steve

_________________From the Mailbox__________________

Write to Publisher@LifeSupportSystem.com

I want to express my great condolence to people of America. I
want to say aloud my personal absolute negative expression about
the terrorist attack innocent people in New York and Washington.
Dostoevsky said there are no great goals to justify the crime if
it costs a little tear of child, and how many tears (were shed
by) this outrage act? ~ Your subscriber (Kiev, Ukraine)

Know that the pain and suffering of Americans is also felt
across the mass of water here in Australia. ~ Joanna (Perth,
Australia)

Let those of us who can, hold a vision of peace, even between
ourselves and those who would destroy us. Let those of us who
can see the Light, be the Light. ~ A friend

Everything came to a standstill here (South Africa) yesterday
afternoon at about 3.00 p.m. our time when we first heard the
news of the horror! What I do want to say, from our small space,
far away from you all in America, is that we grieve for the whole
nation and all of you are in our prayers and thoughts --
constantly. ~ Caroline (South Africa)

The Canadian People Send Their Deepest Condolences to Our
American Friends. We are shocked and horrified, as most Americans
are, as soon as we heard the news many rallied, giving blood to
the Canadian Red Cross in anticipation of the need by those that
might need it. America is our fiend and neighbour, and those that
hurt America hurt us. We hope that we never see another tragedy
as this again. ~ Doug (Canada)

Thank you! Even with all that you and your family have been
going through, you have still managed to send inspiration to
those of us in need! With all of the negativity out there
yesterday, and the "Nuke 'EM" attitude among a lot of Americans
that called into CNN and the radio stations here in Chicago, I
began to find myself getting more upset about them than the
tragedy that caused their feelings. Thank you for reminding the
many people who forget in times like this that we are all one --
most humans do NOT believe that the killing of innocents is
right, no matter what race! Here in Chicago, an Arab education
meeting was hit with a molotov cocktail -- this is exactly what
we DON'T need! Thanks again for your call to Americans to see the
truth and work through our grief with LOVE! ~ Kelli (Chicago,
Illinois)

I, like so many of us in the US, live complacently from day
to day without fear of danger. Then a tragedy like this occurs
and reminds us of the fragility of life and how important it is
for us to set aside our differences and all join hands in common
bond. ~ Mal (Pasadena, Texas, USA)

I live in Barbados, a small island in the West Indies
(Caribbean). The tragedy of yesterday shook us here as well. My
thoughts and prayers go out to everyone in the States. May God
continue to strengthen your nation and be with every one of your
leaders as they make decisions and try to rebuild the country. ~
Marie (Barbados)

A great gloom has descended on Australia today and will
remain for a while to come. The streets were empty in peak hour
this morning as people stayed home to watch in horror as the
event was broadcast across the nation. And this gloom has
remained the whole day, with the attack being just about the only
thing on peoples minds. America is far from alone in its hurt and
sorrow and we will do whatever we can to help our fellow humans.
~ Nikki (Gold Coast, Australia)

I hope that from yesterday events we may learn at least one
lesson: that hate only brings violence and destruction. "Love
thy enemy" was not written in vain. I pray that the hurt we all
feel today does not develop into hate and desire for revenge. ~
Olga (Puerto Rico, USA)

My thoughts from South Africa are with you in this dark hour.
But I know that you are a country of strong people. People that
will support each other and together stand up to become even
stronger. ~ Ronelle (Gauteng, South Africa)

I am thankful to you always for the positive, uplifting
words. I look forward to my daily emails. I never needed them
more than I needed them today. I was one of hundreds in Jersey
City, at Exchange Place, who watched this event unfold to our
shock, horror and disbelief. Thanks for giving me something to
hold on to. ~ TL

Everything has changed today. Our nation, our world, our
civilization. If we are not extremely careful, we could surrender
our future to these terrorists in exchange for the perception of
peace and security. The terrorists demonstrated that the United
States is a free and open country. We have paid a price for
having an accessible society. Accessible to all, for whatever
purpose they desire. Accessible for good or evil. ~ Eric

I light a candle that is burning as a vigil in my home
reminding me that Light overcomes darkness. I fly the American
flag outside my home at half mast. I turn my headlights on my car
to light the way, in my way, for those who feel lost right now. ~ Y.M.

Many leaders interviewed on TV have already been
saying, if we as mankind would unite during times of
peace as we do in tragedy, then we will be able to
remove all bad things, including hunger, homelessness,
and despair. That is a proactive point of view. ~ Randy
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 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 180 of 783: Allison M  (Allison2) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (02:43) * 1 lines 
 
In addition to thousands of Americans killed they are now saying there were hundreds of UK citizens. My son (he works for a US bank in London) has just got back from spending a week working in NY. He was in the WTC every day. The world really is a global village. What happens to the US happens to us all.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 181 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (07:37) * 3 lines 
 
http://tibet.com/NewsRoom/hhdl-letter.htm

The Dalai Lama speaks.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 182 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (08:05) * 5 lines 
 
The world really is a global village. What happens to the US happens to us all.
Let's hope this unity works in the hard task ahead.

There are some flights flying into Miami. They seem to be flying lower than usual. Where once we could barely hear them now they are very loud. Very scary. :-(



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 183 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (08:47) * 1 lines 
 
Thank goodness that your family was spared, Allison. I was thinking about Ben's brother. Isn't he in NYC and probably in that part of it?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 184 of 783: MarkG  (MarkG) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (08:55) * 1 lines 
 
Ben's brother works (I believe) for Morgan Stanley, who have (had) 21 floors of the South WTC tower, although it's not their head office in NYC. MS reported yesterday that over 85% (and growing) of their WTC staff had survived. So his odds are good.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 185 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (09:08) * 1 lines 
 
Thanks, Mark, for the update. The other night I was watching BBC news' coverage on one of my PBS channels and they were talking about all the foreign nationals who worked in the financial sector.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 186 of 783: MarkG  (MarkG) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (09:23) * 5 lines 
 
That's right, Karen. Just like here in London, the NYC financial services industry is one of the most multi-national workforces around. Obviously, the BBC is concerned to take some time focusing on the number of Britons involved, but there will be many nationalities amongst the dead, along with the thousands of Americans.

A colleague of mine reports that his NY counterpart works in a suburb in which nearly everybody commutes to Manhattan. Every few doors down the street there was a worker who never came home on Tuesday.

Personally, three of my four previous firms had offices in the WTC. It brings the tragedy close to home, but not as close as for the family members and friends of the 20,000.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 187 of 783: Eileen  (EileenG) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (09:58) * 7 lines 
 
(Mark) MS reported yesterday that over 85% (and growing) of their WTC staff had survived. So his odds are good.
Yes, I heard that about MS also. They credit a 'split second decision to evacuate' after the first plane hit the other tower. It seems to me alot more people got out than you might expect (credit the '93 bombing for that). Yet the stories of those searching for their loved ones, who called before 9 a.m. to say they were OK but who worked above the 90th floor, are absolutely heartbreaking. This will continue for weeks.

(Beth) The White House and ABC News have confirmed that the intended target of the plane that crashed in DC, was NOT The Pentagon. It was The White House.
OMG !! The White House have also confirmed that Air Force One and The President, were also intended targets. They have not revealed what brought them to this
conclusion.

I'll tell you--this is spin. Georgie's being criticized for not returning to DC until late afternoon. The plane which hit the Pentagon, the press sec'y says, circled over the White House first. They may have more 'clear and convincing' evidence that the White House and Air Force One (a plane? They're going to hit a plane with a plane with so many other gov't targets around? George was on the ground in Fla. at the time of the attacks) were targeted, but I'm not biting. Though they could've indeed gone for the White House and done far more damage to the country--Dick Cheney was at his desk. ;-P


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 188 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (10:01) * 15 lines 
 
On Doomed Flight, Passengers Vowed to Perish Fighting
By JODI WILGORENand EDWARD WONG

They told the people they loved that they would die fighting.

In a series of cellular telephone calls to their wives, two passengers
aboard the plane that crashed into a Pennsylvania field instead of
possibly toppling a national landmark learned about the horror of the
World Trade Center. From 35,000 feet, they relayed harrowing details
about the hijacking in progress to the police. And they vowed to try to
thwart the enemy, to prevent others from dying even if they could not
save themselves.

More:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/13/national/13NEWA.html


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 189 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (10:04) * 114 lines 
 
Austin's Stratfor.com intelligence reports are some of the best:

Situation Reports

European markets stabilized in trading Sept. 12, helping to calm the major Asian markets entering the trading day Sept. 13. AFP reports that Tokyo, Hong Kong, Sydney and South Korea all posted minor gains after steep losses the previous day, though all markets remain fairly below pre-attack levels. Singapore dropped marginally, and Malaysia, Thailand and Taiwan -- which were closed Sept. 13 -- posted losses of between 4 and 7 percent. 1519 GMT, 091301

The Afghanistan opposition Northern Alliance, which opposes the ruling Taliban, has appointed a new military chief to replace leader Ahmad Shah Masood, Reuters reported. Masood was replaced with a general named Mukhammad Fakhim on Sep. 11, a few days after Masood was wounded in an attack. Conflicting reports have stated that Masood was actually killed in the attack. 1501 GMT, 091301

The Washington Post reports that the Bush administration is continuing to gather support for a possible strike against Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden and his supporters in Afghanistan, pressuring neighboring Pakistan for intelligence and logistical backing after winning full NATO support Sept. 12. Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf has pledged his country's full cooperation in the probe into the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in the United States, VOA news reported, while Saudi Arabia has also reportedly offered its support. The Chinese government is appealing to the United States to consult with countries beyond Europe before launching an attack, BBC reported. 1430 GMT, 091301

Fox News reports that almost all of the hijackers involved in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks have been identified on flight manifests, including many Saudi and Egyptian nationals and one known supporter of Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, considered a prime suspect in the attacks. The news agency, citing law enforcement officials, said that a flight manifest from one of the four flights included the name of a suspected bin Laden supporter, while one person has also been arrested in connection with the attacks in Hamburg, Germany. 1427 GMT, 091301

U.S. authorities said at least one hijacker on each of the four planes used in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks was trained at a U.S. flight school, AP reported. Overall, 50 people may have been involved in the operation. Attorney General John Ashcroft said 12 to 24 hijackers commandeered the four planes, and a government official said another two dozen or so are believed to have assisted them, AP reported. The Los Angeles Times reports that about 40 of the men have been accounted for, including those killed in the suicide attacks, but 10 remain at large. The Times also reported at least one of the suspects receiving advanced flight training in Florida was a commercial pilot from Saudi Arabia. 1417 GMT, 091301

The Associated Press reports that a former employee at Huffman Aviation school in Venice Venice, Fla., said FBI agents told him that Mohamed Atta, who stayed in his home while training at the local flight school, was involved in the attack on the World Trade Center Sept. 11. The Miami Herald, citing federal authorities, reports that Atta was one of four suspects who died on American Airlines Flight 11, the first jetliner to crash into the center. A second student at Huffman Aviation, identified as Marwan Alshehhi, is also a suspect. 1410 GMT, 091301

Afghanistan's ruling Taliban Sept. 13 dismissed reports linking Osama bin Laden to terrorist attacks on the United States earlier on the week, and reiterated that they would not hand over the Saudi dissident, AFP reported. Reports had surfaced the previous day claiming that the Taliban had arrested bin Laden. The Taliban is reportedly preparing for a possible U.S. attack, sending its top leader into hiding and repositioning its military hardware throughout the country, The Washington Post reported, citing reports from Pakistani intelligence sources.1405 GMT, 091301

Federal aviation officials said they would allow air travel in the United States to resume Sept. 13 morning. U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft said authorities were deploying hundreds of U.S. marshals and other agents to airports and airplanes to increase security with the gradual resumption of commercial flights, AP reported. 1400 GMT, 091301

The Times of India has published a report originally carried by an Arabic online newspaper, saying that the Taliban has placed Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden and several of his assistants under house arrest in Afghanistan. A diplomat at the Taliban embassy in Abu Dhabi could not confirm the report. 2318 GMT, 091201

Armed sky marshalls and/or company security officials will accompany flights in the United States for at least a short period of time, possibly indefinitely, according to airline industry officials and the Department of Transportation. 2240 GMT, 091201

Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage told Pakistani Ambassador Maleeha Lodhi Sept. 12 that the United States expects full Pakistani cooperation on the search for perpetrators of Sept. 11 attacks on the United States, AFP reported. Secretary of State Colin Powell told reporters, "We thought … it would be useful to point out to the Pakistani leadership at every level that we are looking for and expecting their fullest cooperation and their help and support." Washington is concerned about Pakistan's relationship with Afghanistan's Taliban, which is suspected of harboring Osama bin Laden. Pakistan is one of only three countries worldwide that officially recognize the Taliban. 2355 GMT, 091201

Israeli intelligence officials briefing the Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's cabinet Sept. 12 reported that a Middle East government likely sponsored the attack on the United States. They also identified Iraq as the most likely candidate, according to the Middle East News Line (MENL). The news report speculates that Iraq may have financed the operation and recruited Osama bin Laden, stating that Iraq maintains an alliance with bin Laden and radical Islamic groups. 2207 GMT, 091201

NATO's emergency council declared in a statement Sept. 12 that the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks on the United States fall under the alliance's mutual defense arrangements. This is the first-ever invocation of Article V of the North Atlantic Treaty, which calls for joint action in response to an attack on one alliance member. 2152 GMT, 091201

United Arab Emirates state TV reported Sept. 12 that two men identified by U.S. authorities as possible suspects in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks were carrying Saudi passports, AFP reports. The two suspects, Wa'el Mohammad al-Shihri and Ahmad Ibrahim Ali al-Hazzouni, reportedly carried international drivers licenses issued by the UAE and had rented a car which was later seized at Boston's Logan airport. 2150 GMT, 091201

The FAA announced late Wednesday afternoon that passenger air travel will resume temporarily to allow stranded travelers who were diverted Sept. 11 to reach their destinations. The partial opening will occur under heavily-intensified security precautions. The FAA said that it is not yet resuming normal operations due to continued security concerns. 2115 GMT, 091201

The Russian Foreign Ministry said Sept. 12 that Moscow and the European Union plan to step up cooperation to fight international terrorism follow the Sept. 11 attacks in the United States, AFP reported. 1935 GMT, 091201

U.S. Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan has asked central banks to limit the trading in dollars to prevent shocks to the global currency markets, CNNfn reported. The Fed is concerned that a large dollar transaction could create dangerous ripples and harm liquidity. As of Wednesday afternoon, the dollar was bouncing back from earlier losses, stabilizing at 119.38 yen to the dollar and .9067 dollars to the Euro, while trading was thin, AFP reported. Greenspan is due to return from Europe later today. 1935 GMT, 091201

Reacting to the terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, Lebanese Information Minister Ghazi Aridi cautioned against "impulsive" accusations and suggested that the United States should reconsider some international policies that have earned it enemies, the Lebanese Daily Star reported. "There's a need for re-examining the 'New World Order' and the proposed globalization. There's a need for more cooperation and for building relations based on the respect for the rights of people and a just distribution of wealth, not the logic of force," Aridi said. 1935 GMT, 091201

In a national television address, Russian President Vladimir Putin called Sept. 12. for coordinated international action to combat terrorism, which he called the "plague of the 21st century," Agence France-Presse reported. He cited the 1999 bombings of apartment buildings in Moscow in condemning the attacks on New York and Washington. National news agency Interfax quoted Putin in a telegram to Bush as saying, "There is no doubt that such inhuman acts must be punished." Interfax also reported that Russia placed its national air defenses on full alert and that "anti- terrorism measures" were being enforced nationwide. 1935 GMT, 091201


A spokesman for British Prime Minister Tony Blair said Sept. 12 that the number of Britons who died in the Sept. 11 terrorist attack in the United States "could run into hundreds," AFP reported. 1930 GMT, 091201

In a statement Sept. 12 Taliban authorities offered to negotiate about the future of Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden if the United States could provide proof of his involvement in the recent terrorist attack on the United States, Kyodo News Service reported, although the group has made similar statements in the past. Reuters reports that the Taliban has beefed up security at government offices and closed the main airport in Kabul after it endured a rocket attack by anti-Taliban forces overnight. 1927 GMT, 091201

Kyodo News Service reports that the United Nations evacuation from Afghanistan will be completed Sept. 14, and will include a large number of foreign aid workers. CNN reported that U.N. staff were taking unusual measures such as taking key documents and computer discs with them. 1852 GMT, 091201

European stock markets strengthened somewhat despite the terrorist attacks on the United States Sept. 11, MSNBC reported. London's FTSE 100 INDEX closed 134.80 points higher at 4,880.80, or up about 2.8 percent, late Sept. 12. The Paris CAC 40 index closed 54.51 points higher at 4,114.26, up 1.34 percent. Frankfurt's DAX was up around 85 points, or 2 percent higher, at 4,358 in late-afternoon trading. 1850 GMT, 091201

Iraqi President Saddam Hussein said Sept. 12 that the United States was "reaping the thorns" of its foreign policy, in a commentary quoted by the official INA news agency on the terrorist attacks the previous day in New York and Washington. 1810 GMT, 091201

A plan to hijack commercial planes and fly them into U.S. targets was reportedly incorporated into a terror strategy by Ramzi Zhmed Yousef, who was sentenced to life imprisonment for masterminding the bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993, Inquirer News Service reported. The plan was first uncovered in Manila in 1995 after police arrested four suspects in a plot to assassinate Pope John Paul II, and was passed on to U.S. officials by the Philippine government. At least four of Yousef's partners in the 1993 bombing have remained at large, increasing suspicions that they could be involved in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, D.C. 1758 GMT, 091201

The European Union is ramping up its own internal security measures for public transportation, airlines and around public buildings, Reuters reports, while Europol has set up a special task force for police agencies to exchange terrorism information. 1755 GMT, 091201

NATO ambassadors opened a debate Sept. 12 into whether terrorist attacks in New York and Washington represented an "armed attack" against the entire 19-nation alliance, AFP reported. If NATO nations agree on such a stance, the alliance could take "such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area." 1735 GMT, 091201

Citing its already fragile financial situation, as well as the impact of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, Midway Air has suspended its operations and laid off 1,700 workers, AP reported. In a statement the company said "demand for air transportation is expected to decline sharply." 1734 GMT, 091201

CNN reports that FBI agents have taken several people in Boston and southern Florida into custody for questioning about the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks on The World Trade Center and the Pentagon. The FBI is not calling them "suspects", but it does say they may provide material information on the case. Activity in Boston is centered around the Westin Copley Hotel and includes Boston police and SWAT teams. CNN reports that investigations in Florida are focusing their attention on several flight schools. 1720 GMT, 091201

CNN reports that the FBI has identified several suspects in the Boston area thought to be involved in the Sept. 11 hijackings and terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, D.C. The report was attributed to a "usually reliable" Boston television station but has not been confirmed by the FBI. 1708 GMT, 091201

The Jerusalem Post reports that Israel has put its air force and anti-aircraft batteries on increased alert and increased the number of its airborne patrols over Israeli airspace. The measures were taken to prevent any unwanted infiltration, air force sources said. Defense forces say no further significant security measures are being taken, as the country was already on a high alert status due to recent terrorist attacks. 1706 GMT, 091201

The Federal Aviation Authority said today that the ban on all U.S. air travel, originally set to end at noon Sept. 12, has been extended indefinitely, National Public Radio reported. The Pentagon is also reportedly being evacuated for a second day in a row. Parts of the Pentagon near the initial impact by a commercial airliner Sept. 11 are becoming increasingly insecure and there are concerns of further collapse, CNN reported. The secretaries of the U.S. Army and Navy have been moved to the building's basement. 1620 GMT, 091201

Ha'aretz reports that Israel reopened its airspace to foreign airline traffic today, though foreign flights must still gain special security clearance before landing. Israeli airspace was closed Sept. 12 due to concerns that the country could be targeted for attacks like those in New York and Washington, D.C. 1631 GMT, 091201

Israeli Defense Forces have ramped up attacks in the territories, The Jerusalem Post reported, saying 10 Palestinians were killed and over 30 wounded in overnight and morning attacks in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, following the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, D.C. Israeli tanks moved into the West Bank city of Jenin early on Sept. 12 and reportedly destroyed a Palestinian security headquarters and two suspected terrorist hideouts before withdrawing. 1635 GMT, 091201

The Taliban said Sept. 12 that any retaliatory strikes by the United States on Afghanistan and on Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, the prime suspect in the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, would fail and that Washington would not be able to find any person it targets, AFP reported, citing a Taliban spokesman. Bin Laden is living in Afghanistan under the Taliban militia's protection. The United Nations has ordered all 80 of its employees out of Afghanistan. 1553 GMT, 091101

Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden Sept. 12 congratulated the people who carried out the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, D.C., but denied that he was involved, AP reported, citing Abu Dhabi Television's bureau chief in Islamabad. U.S. Embassies in Yemen, Kuwait and Oman and the United Arab Emirates announced that they are closing indefinitely. 1333 GMT, 091201

The FBI has reportedly identified five suspects in connection with the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon, ABC news reported, citing Boston Herald report. Investigators are searching Boston’s Logan’s airport, where two of the hijacked planes used in the assault originated, and reportedly believe two of the suspects flew from Portland, Maine, to Logan before the attack. 1328 GMT, 091201

Fox News, citing the Boston Herald, reported that two of the suspects so far identified in the search of Logan airport were brothers, one of whom was a trained pilot, and had passports traced to the United Arab Emirates. Reuters though quoted a UAE government source who said there is no evidence that any emirate nationals were aboard the hijacked planes. The Boston Globe reported that one of the five suspects’ bags did not make the connection to the plane that was hijacked, and the luggage contained a copy of the Koran, an instructional video on flying commercial airliners and a fuel consumption calculator. The FBI also towed from the airport’s parking garage a rental car with a Virginia license plate that contained Arabic-language flight training manuals, ABC reported. 1325 GMT, 091201

Federal agents are planning to serve search warrants on a home or homes in south Florida of a passengers believed to be on one of the hijacked commercial planes used in the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, Reuters reported, citing a local television channel report. The station gave no further details of the planned search other than saying it would focus on Davie, a city about 20 miles northwest of Miami, while the FBI was not available to confirm or deny. Fox News reported that at least one Middle Eastern student at flight school Embry-Riddle University in Daytona Beach, Fla., is missing, and that authorities are looking into reports he may have been on one of the hijacked planes. 1320 GMT, 091201

U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said Sept. 11 that there is “no way” that the United States was involved in bombings reported in Afghanistan ’s capital Kabul. U.S. President George W. Bush also arrived back at the White House Sept. 11 after shuttling during the day between air force bases in Louisiana and Nebraska. 2257 GMT, 091101

Explosions around Kabul do not appear to be the result of U.S. action, despite speculation that that Saudi militant Osama bin Laden, who shelters in Afghanistan, was behind today's terrorist strikes in New York and Washington. Rather, Afghanistan's ruling Taliban militia Sept. 12 launched a massive attack against opposition Northern Alliance forces north of the city. The attack follows allegations that Northern Alliance commander Ahmad Shah Masood died of injuries he received in an assassination attempt Sept. 10. Taliban and Northern Alliance forces have been winding up the summer fighting season over the past few weeks with extensive clashes north of Kabul, and in the northern province of Takhar. 2240 GMT, 091101

CNN showed footage of Afghanistan's capital Kabul under attack early Sept. 12, with explosions and anti-aircraft fire seen throughout the city. Numerous missiles were also seen heading to the city’s airport. The fighting is most likely the result of continued fighting between the opposition Northern Alliance and the ruling Taliban. 2211 GMT, 091101

The New York Stock Exchange has delayed trading indefinitely after the World Trade Center collapsed Sept. 12 following a terrorist attack. The Federal Reserve also announced it is ready to provide additional money to banks if needed. 2142 GMT, 091101

Air Security International has reported that Air Force One has left the Offutt Air Force Base in Nebraska and is heading toward Washington, D.C. It also reports that subsidiary building 7 of the World Trade Center has collapsed and that building 5 may follow. AP also reported that the plane that struck the Pentagon was an American Airlines jetliner that had taken off from Dulles International Airport, and that officials say one of the passengers was Barbara Olson, the wife of Solicitor General Theodore Olson, who argues U.S. President George W. Bush's cases before the Supreme Court.
2116 GMT, 091101

Britain, Washington's closest ally, put its security forces on maximum alert Sept. 11 following terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, D.C, AFP reported. All U.S. military forces around the world are also now on Threat Condition Delta, the highest state of alert under the new system. 2123 GMT, 091101

Israel has closed its borders with Egypt and Jordan following the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, D.C., Sept. 11, Israeli public television reported. Israel earlier closed its airspace for 24 hours to incoming foreign aircraft, and its air force has been placed on high alert. U.S. authorities also boosted surveillance around the U.S. base in Incirlik, southern Turkey, but a spokesman would not specify the level of alert to which troops at the base were posted, AFP reported. The base holds a force of some 40 British and U.S. planes which patrol the no-fly zone over northern Iraq. NATO ambassadors are scheduled to meet in Brussels, while European Union foreign ministers are due to meet early Sept. 12. 2052 GMT, 091101

Fox News is citing a Middle East Broadcasting report which said the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine is now denying involvement in today’s attacks in New York and Washington, D.C., despite earlier reports which said the group had claimed responsibility. Two other Palestinian groups, Hamas and the Islamic Jihad, also denied responsibility for the attacks, but blamed U.S. policies in the Mideast, CNN reported. Despite earlier denials by the Taliban, CNN also said government sources have good indications that those involved in the attacks have links to suspected Saudi terrorist Osama bin Laden, although no details were given. 2002 GMT, 091101

The Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries pledged Sept. 11 to maintain a stable oil supply following a rise in oil prices after the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, Kyodo news agency reported. OPEC Secretary-General Ali Rodriquez Araque said member nations will guarantee a sufficient supply of crude oil and are also prepared to use their excess production capability to maintain a stable supply. 1951 GMT, 091101

Fox News is reporting that the commercial airline that crashed into the Pentagon Sept. 11 was American Airlines Flight 77 en route from Dulles Airport in Virginia to Los Angeles. There were 58 passengers, four flight attendants and two pilots on board. A Fox News commentator was on the plane and reportedly made a call from her cell phone, officials said. Fox also cited United Airlines pilots who said UA Flight 175 was the second plane that crashed into the World Trade Center. The Boeing 767 carried 56 passengers, two pilots and seven flight attendants. 1942 GMT, 091101

Sources say that U.S. President George W. Bush has landed at Offutt Air Force Base in Omaha, Nebraska, center of the Strategic Air Command, after leaving from Louisiana, local radio reported. Fox News also reports that Marine amphibious units are being deployed to Washington, D.C. 1935 GMT, 091101

Fox News is reporting that a U.S. judge last June had set Sept. 12 as the sentencing date for an associate of suspected Saudi terrorist Osama bin Laden for his role in the 1998 bombing of a U.S. embassy in Tanzania. The sentencing had been set for the federal courthouse near the World Trade Center, which was destroyed Sept. 11 after being hit by two commercial airliners. Fox is also reporting that a 911 dispatcher in Westmoreland County, Pa., received a cell phone call from a man who said he was a passenger locked in the bathroom of the United Airlines flight which crashed outside of Pittsburgh. The passenger reportedly said the plane was being hijacked. 1909 GMT, 091101

Reuters is reporting that Arabic satellite television channel MBC warned Sept. 8 that followers of suspected Saudi terrorist Osama bin Laden were planning a major attack on U.S. and Israeli interests in the next two weeks. Israeli Defense Minister Benjamin Ben-Eliezer also warned Sept. 10, the day before attacks on U.S. targets in New York and Washington, that "a coalition has been formed recently between terror organizations, Palestinians, Shiites and bin Laden operating against Israeli, American and European targets.” 1850 GMT, 091101



U.S. President George W. Bush will leave Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana for an undisclosed location, Reuters reported Sept. 11, citing a White House official. All airports in the United States have also been closed by order of the Federal Aviation Administration, the first time in U.S. history that air traffic nationwide has been halted, while all U.S. financial markets were closed as well, Fox news reported. 1838 GMT, 091101



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 190 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (10:05) * 7 lines 
 
Koppel said a Pakistani news agency quoted the taliban saying they do not
have Bin Laden under house arrest or any other kind.

Frontline is going to show an updated version of their documentary on Bin
Laden on thursday. They also have an extensive website

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 191 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (10:05) * 6 lines 
 

The LA Times has a detailed story

FBI Identifies Team of 50 Attackers
http://latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-091301terror.story



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 192 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (10:16) * 2 lines 
 
(Eileen) I'll tell you--this is spin. Georgie's being criticized for not returning to DC until late afternoon.
I thought the same thing and said so to Ev last night. Bush was in Florida. Symbolically they might have wanted to hit the White House, but this is a crock to deflect newspapers' criticism. Unfortunately, most Americans do not realize that getting key government functions, including the President, to safety means taking them out of Washington and into bunkers and I'm sure the disaster scenarios for the presidency would involve moving him around. The hijackers wouldn't even have known he eventually went up in Air Force One or where it was headed. Totally idiotic. I bet we never see this 'credible' evidence.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 193 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (10:20) * 10 lines 
 

http://www.rand.org/hot/newslinks.html#terror

This is the URL for a Rand report on the state of U.S. anti-terrorism
policy as of 2000. Executive summary: we don't have one.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/

This is a joint PBS/NYT site on bin Laden, dating from a little after
the first WTC bombings.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 194 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (10:30) * 15 lines 
 

The die has been cast. The lead story in the Thursday edition of the
Washington Post is a detailed description of US negotiations with
Pakistan and Tajikstan to provide a staging area or at least safe
passage for a mission to track down Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan.

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20862-2001Sep12.html

The second story starts by saying that Pentagon officials are keeping
a tight lid on deployments and planning options, then proceeds to
spill the beans extravagantly about the range of plans and preparations
in progress for the effort to find and deal with Osama Bin Laden.

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20806-2001Sep12.html



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 195 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (10:31) * 3 lines 
 
Plans underway for massive invasion of Afghanistan:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,551079,00.html


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 196 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (10:37) * 2 lines 
 
A wired story reports that FBI agents are busy installing carnivore on ISPs
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,46747,00.html


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 197 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (10:38) * 13 lines 
 

Anti-Attack Feds Push Carnivore
By Declan McCullagh

2:00 a.m. Sep. 12, 2001 PDT
WASHINGTON -- Federal police are reportedly increasing Internet surveillance after Tuesday's deadly attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

Just hours after three airplanes smashed into the buildings in what some U.S. legislators have dubbed a second Pearl Harbor, FBI agents began to visit Web-based, e-mail firms and network providers, according to engineers at those companies who spoke on condition of anonymity.

An administrator at one major network service provider said that FBI agents showed up at his workplace on Tuesday "with a couple of Carnivores, requesting permission to place them in our core, along with offers to actually pay for circuits and costs."





 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 198 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (10:44) * 0 lines 
 


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 199 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (10:48) * 4 lines 
 
From the Guardian article:

Nato is now drawing up an emergency plan for a massive attack on Afghanistan if proof emerges that Osama bin Laden, the wanted Saudi-born terrorist sheltered by Afghanistan, was responsible for the attacks.
What do they mean by if? A signatory to a treaty is a signatory to a treaty. Also, they are making it sound like it's an obscure passage of the treaty. That it hasn't been invoked isn't relevant IMO. It is the backbone of the NATO alliance. Only the enemy has changed.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 200 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (11:14) * 4 lines 
 

http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/misc/janes010911_2_n.shtml

The hunt for Bin Laden begins.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 201 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (11:15) * 11 lines 
 

According to NYPD radio scan police are reporting that Grand Central Station
is right now being evacuated and strett traffic has been closed off in the
last 10 minutes in that area. there were reports that a transit officer was
approached by two passengers that a male dressed in tan was seen with a
backpack with wires coming out of it and something attached around his
waist. Police have not as of this minute located any peson matching this
description. Now the report is that the package or backpack was left on a
train from Greenwich, and that the terminal is completely evacuated.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 202 of 783: Mari   (mari) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (11:31) * 10 lines 
 
(Eileen)Though they could've indeed gone for the White House and done far more damage to the country--Dick Cheney was at his desk. ;-P

Oh Eileen, I am laughing in spite of myself, one of the few good laughs in days. Agree that it's spin, but who cares?

The fragility of this country was part of the message the Taliban government conveyed in a plea for restraint issued late tonight.
It said in part, "We appeal to the United States not to put Afghanistan into more misery because our people have suffered so much."


They should have thought of this before they harbored and supported terrorists. And at whose hands have they suffered? They are asking us to show more caring for their people than they themselves have. And this culpability doesn't stop at the Afghan border.

I really wonder if the world has the resolve and stomach to do what needs to be done in order to protect and preserve the greater good.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 203 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (11:56) * 4 lines 
 
I really wonder if the world has the resolve and stomach to do what needs to be done in order to protect and preserve the greater good.
We have lost some of our freedom. It will never be the same.

In Miami one of the thoughts is that Castro might have supported these terrorists. Could you imagine also going after Castro? That would put Miami at a very high risk for attacks.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 204 of 783: Eileen  (EileenG) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (12:22) * 7 lines 
 
(Mari) Agree that it's spin, but who cares?
It annoys me. Surely the White House has more pressing problems than Bush's political standing.

We appeal to the United States not to put Afghanistan into more misery because our people have suffered so much
...as they pull out their AK-47s. Who are they kidding? Phooey.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 205 of 783: winter  (winter) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (12:27) * 4 lines 
 
(Mark) Ben's brother works (I believe) for Morgan Stanley...although it's not their head office in NYC... So his odds are good.
I checked with Ben yesterday. You're right, Mark. His brother was midtown, and not in the WTC at the time, thank god.

I tuned into a segement of the "Howard Stern" show yesterday morning... for some unknown reason. It's really very frightening at how "trigger happy" many people are after all this. It's understandable to want to express anger, but there were people calling in ready to invade the Arab/Muslim/South Asian neighborhoods, ready to take revenge. There have alrady been reports of violence. It's complete, total ignorance on their parts, and those callers represent a demographic of this country I'm very ashamed of.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 206 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (12:43) * 6 lines 
 
(Mari) Agree that it's spin, but who cares?
(Eileen) It annoys me.

Me too, but not because of the political standing concern. Rather than make up lies, just tell the American public the truth of what they were doing and why and that is is SOP in such situations. Surely people would understand that.

(Winter) those callers represent a demographic of this country I'm very ashamed of.
Until/unless they violate someone's civil liberties or commit criminal acts, we have to tolerate such things as that is what our country's democracy is all about, i.e., standing up for people's rights to say the most vile things.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 207 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (13:55) * 21 lines 
 
More from stratfor:

U.S. Must Identify State Sponsors
0120 GMT, 010912

Summary

The attacks on the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Washington, D.C., have sent shockwaves across the nation. While international Islamic terrorists organizations linked to Osama bin Laden's Al-Qa'ida group remain the top suspects, some have suggested nations opposed to U.S. global hegemony may also have been involved. Historically, international terrorism has needed state sponsorship in order to be successful. But such involvement would be tantamount to declaring war on the United States, and although the suspect list is long, there is little evidence at the moment that singles any one country out.

Analysis

The attacks on New York and Washington achieve a number of objectives for the perpetrators. On a strategic level, they demonstrate the vulnerability of the United States. In one fell swoop, the sophisticated and well-coordinated operation paralyzed New York City and the U.S. financial sector, sent the nation's government spiraling into chaos and struck terror in the hearts of the American public. Such a feat, accomplished with only four airline hijackings, is almost impossible to comprehend and will impact U.S. defense and foreign policy for decades to come.

By immobilizing the U.S. financial sector, the strike threatens to push a nation, already suffering from a downturn, into recession. This will have ramifications for U.S. influence throughout the globe. It could also damage U.S. markets abroad as well as numerous other nations with economic ties to the United States.

Understanding the impact of the attack is important for identifying likely suspects. There is good reason to suspect international terrorist organizations linked to Osama bin Laden's umbrella group, Al-Qa'ida. More important, however, is the question of which, if any, states might also have been involved.



The article goes on in much more depth and there are several other articles worth reading at http://www.stratfor.com



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 208 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (14:59) * 42 lines 
 
From my son - his intraoffice email:

The official word from the FAA about the new airport security procedures is
as follows:


Increased passenger and baggage security screenings at all airports.
Passengers should plan to arrive at the
airport a MINIMUM OF TWO HOURS prior to departure.

Passengers must check their luggage at the ticket counter, no curbside
check-in allowed.

Only passengers holding an electronic ticket receipt, travel agency
itinerary, airline ticket card, boarding document, internet printout or
paper ticket will be allowed past the security check point. Passengers
without
receipts of any sort will need to stand in line at the airport
ticket counters to obtain a receipt. (You may also
contact TI and they will mail, fax or email a receipt to you prior
to departing to the airport)

Aircraft and airport security sweeps similar to those conducted during
the Persian Gulf war. Vehicles will be inspected at terminal parking
entrances.

Unattended vehicles are banned near the terminals and will be towed.

No knives of any size, or made from any material, are permitted on
flights. The sale of knifelike items has
been banned at all airports.

Heightened vigilance for unattended bags.

Searches of aircraft cargo and passenger compartments.

An increase in number of uniformed law enforcement and military
personnel.

Random searches of service personal, flight crews and equipment.

Reduces access points to secure areas at airports.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 209 of 783: winter  (winter) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (15:26) * 2 lines 
 
Thanks for the info. MArcia. I'm curious to know what the procedures are for our friends in other countries. How do these security measures compare to Europe/Australia/Asia/etc.?



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 210 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (15:28) * 1 lines 
 
Is this the end of Duty-Free shopping? I must say I am very happy about about the carry-on luggage ban. The size of those things were getting too large.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 211 of 783: Toyce Southern  (toyce) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (15:37) * 1 lines 
 
I think you will still be allowed carry on items, but just the curb side check service is gone.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 212 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (15:53) * 1 lines 
 
I thought they said wallets and purses only.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 213 of 783: Toyce   (toyce) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (15:59) * 1 lines 
 
O.k. I just didn't see that in the above post. It's quite possible that they will limit it to that.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 214 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (16:10) * 3 lines 
 
Where does it say anything about limiting carry-ons to wallets or purses? Just no curbside check-in per above.

Can you imagine turning over your camera to the airlines to check in cargo? I don't think so.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 215 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (16:13) * 3 lines 
 
Wonder about laptops carry-ons. I suspect that they will be banned, as well. I guess we carry a well examined purse and a book to read. Who about nail files? knitting needles? Dental floss? The list is endless if one gets tryly inventive. Even a leather belt!

El Al, The Israeli airlines makes inspections like you would not believe. They have the tightest security in the world and NO ONE complains.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 216 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (16:15) * 10 lines 
 
This also from my son about colleagues travelling and caught in this mess: froma memo:

We have heard from the rest of our traveling staff.
DK is making his way to Chicago from Midland, Michigan via
automobile. He is with SS and R. They hope to get on a
morning flight to San Francisco out of Chicago.
DM, who was on personal travel, is also in Chicago trying to
get on a flight or take a Greyhound bus.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 217 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (16:20) * 272 lines 
 

At Last the Aggressors Themselves Are Able to Wedge
In a Word Or Two *8-/

Subject: Islamic Jihad, what is next ?
Date: Thursday, September 13, 2001 1:53 AM
From: felipe rodriquez
Reply-To: "felipe rodriquez"
To:


ISLAMIC JIHAD, what is next ?
(c) Felipe Rodriquez

INTRODUCTION

The attack on the World Trade Center in New York is a new phase in an
ongoing global religious and ideological conflict. This conflict started in
1990, with the gulf war. The mother of all wars, as Saddam Hussein called
it, and is unlikely to end for some time. To understand this conflict, we
must look at the Western world's exploitation and colonization of Saudi
Arabia and other Muslim nations . Economic and geopolitical moves that
benefit only the western democratic capitalist structures are the primary
cause of this terrible conflict.


USAMA BIN MUHAMMAD BIN IN LADEN

The Taliban consider Osama Bin Ladin to be a holy man, because of his
incredible service in the Afghani war against the Russians, and the
reconstruction of Afghanistan. Osama Bin Ladin has fought hundreds of
battles in Afghanistan, and has been wounded numerous times. He went to
Afghanistan around 1982, and took with him a large amount of construction
equipment, and a team of engineers, to rebuild the war torn country.
Consequently he became involved in many battles, and was wounded many times.
He is a devout Muslim, and answers to Allah and certain important Islamic
teachers, such as Sheik Safar Ibn `Abd Al-Rahman Al-Hawali.

He founded the "Al Qaeda" movement, with Muhammad Atef. The movement was
initially setup to record the movements of Mujahedin in Afghanistan. Later
the goal changed to driving the United States forces out of Saudi Arabia,
where the US setup a military base since the beginning of the Gulf War. Many
devout Muslims see this as a hostile invasion of the Islamic holy land,
comparable to the invasions of the crusaders in the past. Some years later
the goal changed once again, into what it is now; to attack Israel, the US
and its allies wherever it can. The justification of these acts, in the mind
of the Muslim activist, comes from the foreign occupation of the holy
cities; Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem.

It is simplistic and short sighted to assume that Osama Bin Laden is the
great leader behind the attacks on the WTC, the Nairobi and Dar Es Salaam US
embassies, the hit on USS Cole in Yemen and various other terrorist attacks.
Islamic religious activism is the glue that binds this global terror
movement together. Removing Osama Bin Ladin from the scene will not remove
this global movement, and will not end terror. Killing him will only
motivate thousands of Muslims to volunteer for the ultimate sacrifice.
The Islamic radical movement resembles a hydra, A serpent represented as
having many heads, one of which, when cut off, is immediately succeeded by
two others. The movement cannot be eradicated by violence and retaliation,
such deeds will only make it stronger and increase popular support in the
Islamic world.

To understand how this works, lets look at Hizbollah and Hamas. These
Islamic organizations have been setup in such a way that they are almost
impossible to eradicate. There is always double redundancy in the
leadership, because any leader can expect to be assassinated by their
enemies at any time. The effectiveness of this redundancy is demonstrated by
the fact that Hizbollah and Hamas still exist today, despite the fact that
many of its leaders have been assassinated by Israel and others.
We must assume that the leadership of the organization that hit the WTC, and
other targets in the past, is organized in a similar way, building on the
experience of Islamic organizations in Lebanon, Palestine and elsewhere.

Hamas and Hizbollah have integrated Islamic thought in their society by
providing numerous services to their communities. Schools and hospitals are
provided for free or at cost. And they materially support families, widows
and orphans that have been victims of aggression by their enemies. Hizbollah
operates numerous businesses, that together with donations fund the
activities of the organization. These social activities provide the
organizations with enormous popular support, it is an effective way of
disseminating the virtues of Islam, and strengthening its base. It has also
created a strong platform to recruit martyrs for the violent Jihad (Holy
War) against Israel and its allies.

>From documentation that was seized in Africa, after the Nairobi bombing,
there is a strong indication that a cell structure was used to limit the
risks to the terrorist organization that hit the African embassies,
allegedly the same organization that hit the WTC in 2001. A cell structure
is often used by violent groups. It is implemented in such a way that cell
members only know a limited amount of members of the organization, and only
have limited access to information about the planned activities of the
group. Typically cell members only know the coordinator of the cell, and the
coordinator only knows one higher placed member of the organization. The aim
of the cell structure is to protect the organization, in case of arrests and
torturous interrogations.

The violent faction of the Islamic activist movement, such as the Islamic
front for Jihad, is mostly invisible. It has been hardened through years of
struggle in Lebanon, Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan. It is acutely aware of
its security requirements, because numerous Islamic activists have been
assassinated in the past.
The WTC attack, and the other attacks in the past demonstrate that they have
relatively good communication security; they most likely assume that all
electronic communication is monitored by the US and its allies through their
global Echelon surveillance system and the FBI's Carnivore software. Human
infiltration of these groups is not likely either, most of these Islamic
activists have been working together for many years. An infiltrator would
have to speak fluent Arabic, would have to have intimate knowledge of the
Quran and Islamic religious rituals, and would have to be willing to make
the ultimate sacrifice, Martyrdom, to earn the trust of the organization. In
1853 adventurer Richard Burton managed to disguise himselfe as a Muslim
Derwish, participate in the Pilgrimage to Mecca and Al- Madinah, and came
back alive. But he was the exception to the rule, and he did not try to
infiltrate a terrorist organization that expects infiltration attempts.


INTENTIONS AND MOTIVATIONS

"The people of Islam awakened and realized that they are the main
target for the aggression of the Zionist-Crusaders alliance. All false
claims and propaganda about "Human Rights" were hammered down and exposed
by the massacres that took place against the Muslims in every part of the
world. The latest and the greatest of these aggressions, incurred by the
Muslims since the death of the Prophet (ALLAH'S BLESSING AND SALUTATIONS
ON HIM) is the occupation of the land of the two Holy Places"
(Source: A DECLARATION OF WAR, by Osama Bin Laden.
http://msanews.mynet.net//MSANEWS/199610/19961012.3.html)

A growing group of Islamic scholars and activists feel that the military
installations of the United States in Saudi Arabia represent a hostile
foreign invasion into their holy land. They believe that the three most holy
places in the Islamic world, Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem, are occupied by
Zionists and Christian crusaders. They also believe that most Muslim
nations are victims of neo-colonialist exploitation by the capitalist
western world. A holy war, Jihad, was declared in 1996 to struggle against
exploitation and occupation.

In 1998 a Fatwah was declared by Sheikh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin, Ayman
al-Zawahiri, amir of the Jihad Group in Egypt, Abu-Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha,
Egyptian Islamic Group, Sheikh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the
Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan and Fazlul Rahman, amir of the Jihad Movement in
Bangladesh. This Fatwah reconfirms the holy war against Israel, the US and
its allies. A quote from this Fatwah:

"The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and
military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any
country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa
Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their
armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to
threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God,
"and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and
"fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail
justice and faith in God." (Source: World Islamic Front Statement 23
February 1998, http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm)

Safar Ibn `Abd Al-Rahman Al-Hawali, an important Islamic scholar and
ideologue and highly regarded by Osama Bin Ladin, recently wrote a book, The
Day of Wrath, describing various biblical prophecies.

He describes, among other things: "The attributes of the victorious army,
the collapse of the Zionist forces and the fate of the strategic ally of the
Zionist state (United States)." He states that the beginning of the new era
will be with the announcement of Jihad. And goes on to say that: "It is
futile for the enemies of Allah to compete with Him in weapons!" and "On the
other hand, as if at the signal of a trumpet, the Palestinian refugees
return to their homes, and after the great battle is over the Muslims,
especially those from Egypt and Iraq, are called to the Holy Land to visit
its sanctuary and spend time in worship within its environs." He goes on to
speculate that the reconquest of Jerusalem will take place in 2012.

True or not, we cannot deny the fact that the organizers of this Jihad
believe they are part of this prophecy, and believe that their struggle will
ultimately be successful. This has given them great moral strength,
perseverance, and willingness to sacrifice.


NEXT TARGETS

We should be prepared for the possibility that the WTC bombing is only the
beginning of a new era of warfare. This group has shown repeatedly what
their capabilities are. They have been given no reasons to stop their Jihad;
the US still has military bases in Saudi Arabia, Jerusalem is still occupied
by the Israeli's, and the western world is still perceived to be
implementing its systems of neo-colonialist exploitation on most, if not
all, Muslim nations.

Much will depend on the actions of the US and NATO. Pinpoint retaliation by
them is not possible, because they are fighting an invisible enemy.
President Bush has already stated that no difference will be made between
those countries that harbor terrorists, and the terrorists themselves.
Therefore it is likely that the US and NATO will shed the blood of innocent
Muslims, causing increasing popular support for the Jihad. Retaliation by
the US and NATO would be a precedent for the organisers of the Jihad to
engage in further attacks and further retaliation.

Any future targets of violence by this group are likely to be of greater
symbolic and material value than the WTC tragedy. Destruction of the Vatican
in Rome comes to mind immediately. The radical Islamists consider the
Catholic church to be corrupt, and its destruction would cause a complete
loss of morale for many people in the Western world. The White House is an
obvious target, as is Tel Aviv, the European Parliament in Brussels and
other centres of power. Additionally they may target military targets, such
as NATO headquarters, the Menwith Hill spy base in the UK, and similar sites
around the world.

In an interview Osama Bin Ladin expressed that it is his religious duty to
obtain weapons of mass destruction. We cannot discard the possibility of a
terrorist attack on a city with biological or even nuclear weapons.


THE SOLUTION ?

A solution is unlikely to come up anytime soon. The allies of the US and
Israel will most likely respond with violence, instead of analyzing the
causes of this movement. The Western focus seems to be to eradicate these
terrorist movements through violence and prosecution, by implementing
stronger intelligence systems and implementing additional internal security
systems. President Bush has already stated that he will attack any nation
that harbors and protects terrorists. Thereby laying the groundwork for acts
of war that are likely to be highly inaccurate, causing many civilian
casualties. If the history of the Middle East gives any indication, we can
speculate that violence will be answered by more violence and aggression.
Retaliation is at best the wrong answer, at worst it could be a catastrophic
mistake.

The start of a solution would be to look at the causes that have created
this violent movement. Why are so many Muslims upset with the Western world
and Israel ? Why have they been driven into a position where the only answer
they perceive possible in their struggle is unprecedented violence and
aggression ? Why do they feel cheated, raped and abused by the western
worlds military and capitalist system ? Why do they not trust the US and
Europe at the negotiating table, and instead see them as targets for
terrorist strikes ? We must go back into history, and realize which mistakes
have been made by our nations. We must recognize our total lack of respect
and appreciation for anything different than the modern western system of
democracy and capitalism. Only then will we arrive at some answers that
could lead us to an end of this Jihad.

This is highly unlikely to happen though and therefore the situation will
likely get worse before it gets better.


(c) Felipe Rodriquez



Sources:

Frontline - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/
A declaration of war from Usama Bin Laden -
http://msanews.mynet.net//MSANEWS/199610/19961012.3.html
World Islamic Front Statement -
http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/wif.htm
The DAY of WRATH - http://home.swbell.net/jhaidar/0_preface.htm
Foreign Terrorist Organizations -
http://www.state.gov/www/global/terrorism/fto_1999.html
The next presidents terrorism policy -
http://www.terrorism.com/analysis/TerrorismPolicy.pdf
The Use of Force in Response to Terrorism -
http://www.terrorism.com/terrorism/Force.shtml
WMD TERRORISM AND USAMA BIN LADEN -
http://cns.miis.edu/pubs/reports/binladen.htm
Suitcase Nuclear Devices - http://www.prop1.org/2000/suitcase.htm
CNN - http://www.cnn.com
Hezbollah by Hala Jaber - Columbia Univ Pr; ISBN: 0231108346
A pilgrimage to Al-Madinah and Meccah by R. Burton - AES; ISBN 81-206-0903-4
Gideons Spies by Gordon Thomas - Pan Books; ISBN: 033037537
The Fateful Triangle by Noam Chomski - Pluto press; ISBN: 0745315305
Pity the Nation by Robert Fisk - Oxford University Press; ISBN: 019285284-1
The terrorism reader by David J. Whittaker - Routledge; ISBN: 0-415-22134-X




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 218 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (16:21) * 5 lines 
 

http://interactive.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/Tenant-List.htm

is a list of building tenants with status reports on tenants and business.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 219 of 783: Beth  (Bethanne) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (16:25) * 5 lines 
 
I really hope these security precaustions are permanant. I hope to God, they aren't eased up on when people start complaining about the inconvenience.

According to the FAA, they claim they have been calling for all airport security personel to become federal employees and trained and paid accordingly, for quite some time. Thet were trying to enforce this, but backed off when all the airlines began protesting.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 220 of 783: rachael  (rachael) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (16:35) * 8 lines 
 
(Marcia) Only passengers holding an electronic ticket receipt, travel agency itinerary, airline ticket card, boarding document, internet printout or
paper ticket will be allowed past the security check point


winter, you asked about procedures in Europe - the above has always been the case in the UK to my knowledge - certainly any time I've flown, whether within the UK, within Europe, or to North America (USA and Canada) you cannot get into the departure lounge without a boarding pass which is issued at check-in (and passport for international flights); non-passengers are not allowed past that point. Then at the boarding gate you must show your pass again. If a checked-in passenger does not board, but has put luggage on the plane, the plane will not fly until the luggage has come off.

Check in times for USA/Canada have been two hours minimum every time I've done the trip; within Europe its usually an hour; I know someone who checked in 30 minutes before a flight to Dublin (thus was technically late) and was not allowed to board because she'd breeched security regulations.

what is curb side check in?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 221 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (17:07) * 1 lines 
 
There are skycaps at the entrances (curb) who will take your bags and they are put on the plane. You have to produce a valid ticket and photo identification. This is only for domestic flights. Plus you have to tip these guys per bag.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 222 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (18:42) * 162 lines 
 
Science@NASA is based in the United States, but among our many subscribers
are a substantial number of readers from other countries. In recent days
many of them have written to us expressing their sympathies and horror at
the events of Sept. 11th. Their messages, attached below, reveal how the
heart-breaking loss of life in New York, Washington, D.C., and
Pennsylvania touches everyone. The staff of Science@NASA extend our
heartfelt condolences to the many victims of Tuesday's tragedy, and we
thank our friends overseas for their kind messages of support as we
resume, later today, our regular schedule of scientific story-telling.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
TO: Ron.koczor@msfc.nasa.gov
FROM: inna_mar@XXXXXXXX.ru

Dear Mr. Koczor,

All of us are shocked by the awful events that have occurred yesterday in
New York and in Washington and we wish to extend our sympathy to you and
your colleagues.

If there is any way that we can help, please let us know.

Sincerely,

Inna Mardanyan
Moscow, Russia
****************************
TO: Ron.koczor@msfc.nasa.gov
FROM: gushat@XXXXXXX.ru
Dear friends,
Your colleagues from Paleontological Institute of Moscow are with you.
Our sympathy, thoughts and support are yours. And will always be.
Best regards,

Alexei Rzanov, Galina Ushatinskaya, and all colleagues from Moscow
****************************

TO: Ron.koczor@msfc.nasa.gov
FROM: snassopoulou@XXXXXXX.gr

Dear Ron,

We are very sorry and really left astonished and speechless with terrorism
struck US yesterday. We sincerely wish and hope that everything is OK for
you and all the American colleagues and families.
Yours,

Sophia
Athens, Greece
****************************

TO: phillips@spacescience.com
FROM: tony.taggett@XXXXXXX.uk
Dear Dr Phillips

As my only point of contact with the United States is through your
science@NASA website, I would like to express my heartfelt condolences to
the American people, our thoughts and prayers especially go out to the
relatives and friends of those who perished in the awful events that
occurred yesterday
Yours Sincerely
Tony Aggett
United Kingdom
*****************************
TO: ron.koczor@msfc.nasa.gov
FROM: mmazzolini@XXXXXX.au

We would like to offer our deepfelt sympathy, concern and prayers to our
friends and colleagues in the US at this dreadful time,

Margaret and Alex Mazzolini
Melbourne, Australia
*****************************

TO: ron.koczor@msfc.nasa.gov
FROM: omaro@XXXXXX.kz

We are absolutely shocked by horrible events in the U.S. It is
unbelievable...Accept my condolences...Today our world has changed. What
will happen to our world?
Take care,
Prof Omarov
Alma Aty, Khazakstan
*****************************

TO: ron.koczor@msfc.nasa.gov
FROM: cofXXXXX@home.com

As the President of CANADIAN Environmental Science and Research Group and
on behalf of the Team of CESAR Group I would like to send our heart felt
sorrow to those family members who lost relatives in these vicious and
despicable attacks on democracy. God Bless America!

Jack Pender
Canada
*****************************

From: Rafael Cárdenas Santacruz
To: Ronald.J.Koczor@msfc.nasa.gov

Sincere greetings Dr. Koczor, Ron

Together with my family, we feel very sorry for the regrettable incidents
in New York. We are with you with all our hearts.

Rafael Cardenas Santacruz
Scientific Technician
Bogota, Columbia
*****************************

TO: Ron.koczor@msfc.nasa.gov
FROM: jarl.ahlbeck@XXXXX.fi

In the 1930's Stalin deported and murdered 25,000 Finns that were
peacefully living on the Soviet side of the border. It was a blind terror
action against civilians, a complete ethnical cleaning of the Karelia
county. Without successful defensive fight in the following winter war
1939 when Stalin tried to invade Finland (5 of my uncles were killed, my
father injured), we would, according to recently discovered documents from
Moscow, all have been deported to Siberia, and I would not sit here and
study your website.

These terrorists try to create a world of that kind. We do not want this
world anymore!
All the best for you in the USA

Jarl
Helsinki, Finland
****************************

Necochea, 11/9/01
TO: ron.koczor@msfc.nasa.gov

NASA:
Hi¡, My name is Maria. I am aware of the attack that has been perpetrated
against your country, and I am very sad. I live in Buenos Aires,
Argentina. I am 14 years old and there is not much that I can do to help,
but I profoundly admire you and you have my moral support. I would like to
ask you a favor. Please reach an agreement without wars, but I hope those
responsible are found, so that peace will be extended throughout the
world.
Sincerely,

Maguie.
*****************************

From: Jonathon Dugdale
To: patrick.meyer@msfc.nasa.gov
Sent: 9/11/01 12:37 PM
Subject: Condolences

On behalf of all the employees and stakeholders of ApexMail I would like
to say that we share in your shock, grief and pain resulting from today's
unspeakable and cowardly assault. Our thoughts and prayers are with you
and the people of America.

Jonathon Dugdale
Apexmail, Inc
Canada
*****************************




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 223 of 783: Mari Fulginiti  (mari) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (19:06) * 47 lines 
 
(Marcia) El Al, The Israeli airlines makes inspections like you would not believe. They have the tightest security in the world and NO ONE complains.

Right on, Marcia. Below is a fascinating article from today's Philly Inquirer on airport security in Israel. Take a moment to read this, everyone. IMO, *this* is the type of dialogue we should be having, and people need to think now about the balance of personal freedoms and civil liberties vs. much more aggressive security measures. How much of the former are you willing to give up in order to achieve the latter? A little? A lot? I don't have the answers but this is the type of thing I meant before when I wrote that I wondered if people would have the stomach for doing what may be required in the new world order. Military retaliation is only part of it.

How Israel remains a model of airport security

By Michael Matza
INQUIRER STAFF WRITER

JERUSALEM - As the United States moves to tighten security at its airports, it may look to the world's model of truly tough airport defense: Israel.

Here, any trip on Israel's national airline, El Al, involves not only metal detectors but luggage searches, armed in-flight guards, and a personal grilling by a specially trained antiterrorism officer.

Security agents routinely "profile" passengers to single out for extra attention Arabs or foreigners who fit ethnic or other parameters.

Any foreign visitor who has taken off from Ben Gurion Airport near Tel Aviv knows the drill: arrive two hours before departure, pass all luggage through a monster of a metal detector; open carry-on bags, which sometimes have to be unpacked on a stainless-steel table; and submit to interrogation by a no-nonsense screener.

Where have you been in Israel? Whom did you meet? Did you go to the occupied territories of the West Bank and Gaza? Whom did you talk to there?

Did you pack your own bags? Are you carrying any gifts? Did anyone give you anything to carry? Do you speak Hebrew? Can you read Hebrew? Have you ever studied Hebrew? Do you understand that I am asking these questions because what may seem like a gift to you may actually be an explosive device?

Passengers of Arabic extraction say the questioning can last a very long time and often feels like harassment. Israelis tend to think of it as a necessary evil. In the United States, "profiling" would not pass constitutional muster.

"I think that 99 percent of the passengers understand very well the need for security arrangements, and there are not many complaints," said Pini Schiff, spokesman for the Israeli Airport Authority and former head of airport security.

"I can tell you, in general terms, that in two or three minutes of questioning, the screeners are doing their best to learn the passenger's aim for coming to Israel," Schiff said. "All the flight checkers are hired by us and trained by us. They go through extensive background checks. All of them have served in the Israeli army and have to pass several tests to make sure that they have the capabilities to do the job."

When a passenger's answers don't add up, he is denied a boarding pass. Schiff declined to say how often that happens.

By questioning passengers, guards quickly can spot those who appear nervous, said Leo Gleser, a former El Al security officer and head of ISDS, a security-consulting firm.

In the case of Tuesday's hijackers in the United States, "not all of them would have made it onto the plane" if the Israeli approach to security had been used, Gleser told the Associated Press. "If you detect one, you can start to ask questions" that might lead to the other members of the group.

As another security measure, Ben Gurion passengers are taken by waiting buses to the planes, which are parked far from the terminal on guarded runways.

And, although official sources in Israel would not confirm it, it is widely believed that armed, undercover security guards ride aboard every El Al flight.

"We've provided information in the past to other airlines and other airport authorities, and we will continue to share our expertise," said Nachman Kleiman, spokesman for El Al. Kleiman declined yesterday to say whether El Al had consulted with the Federal Aviation Administration on the new U.S. measures.

"I can tell you that El Al maintains a high level of security for its passengers by not discussing its procedures in the media," he said.

Israeli Transportation Minister Efraim Sneh predicted that Tuesday's attacks would lead to security changes. But instead of bringing more high-tech responses, he said, they likely would reinforce the low-tech methods.

"Our screening method is based on identifying the suspect traveler and concentrating on the characteristics of the person," Sneh said. "Screening for explosives only works when the terrorists are using explosives."

As the world now knows, for Tuesday's terrorists, the plane was the bomb.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 224 of 783: nancy  (nky) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (19:21) * 7 lines 
 
Hi everyone!

I just like to say that I used work on Wall Street and now am working in midtown. Unfortunately I still have many clients from the downtown location especially in the twin towers. The downtown area is my playground. I know every building and every street. I can name most of the businesses with their building address. I've been watching the news and they're flashing the names of all the businesses in the twin towers and it is devastating to see all the names that I know and was conducting business with. I'm in the buildings couple of times a week for meetings and I was very lucky for not being in the area the day it all happened.

My heart and sympathy goes out to all my clients and their families. I can't even begin to say how I feel and have been feeling the past couple of days.

I like to also thank all of you for all your wonderful support.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 225 of 783: winter  (winter) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (19:23) * 4 lines 
 
Sorry to spend so much time on the airport security issue... I've heard conflicting reports about what can now be accepted as "carry on" baggage. Some have said that purses and wallets only (what to do with backpacks?), others have said that there are no changes except that curbside check in is now banned.

Am leaving for Indonesia next month (will live there for a year), packing a laptop, videocam and 35mm camera, books, files, clothes, etc.. Oh dear.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 226 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (19:25) * 1 lines 
 
Thanks for that, Mari! When I board a plane I want to get to my destination in one piece with my nervous system intact. I have nothing to hide. Search us all and put the fear of a real God in them!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 227 of 783: Lucille Oftedahl  (alyeska) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (19:29) * 1 lines 
 
The web grows larger and larger. Germany and Italy to name two.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 228 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (19:45) * 1 lines 
 
re: Carry-ons, they suggest we had better be prepared to turn on our laptops if we carry them on. Take photos with our digitals and so on. If you are using a standard camera, I'd suggest an empty one so they can open it and see it is just a camera. I am flying to my son's wedding next month. I am just as concerned as you are. I am heading over a very deep ocean and heading for San Francisco. I want to get there intact. I only have one child! I want to attend his wedding!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 229 of 783: Wolf  (wolf) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (19:57) * 4 lines 
 


G O D

B L E S S

A M E R I C A ! ! !




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 230 of 783: Wolf  (wolf) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (19:57) * 1 lines 
 
(of course the flag didn't show up--hang on)


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 231 of 783: Wolf  (wolf) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (19:58) * 1 lines 
 



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 232 of 783: Wolf  (wolf) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (20:02) * 3 lines 
 
let's try again---




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 233 of 783: Wolf  (wolf) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (20:08) * 5 lines 
 
as an american, it is heart-warming and pride-inducing to hear and feel the goodwill coming across this computer, the tv, and looking out the window. please keep it up. we have friends in the pentagon and know how close to home this has come for us. GOD BLESS YOU ALL!

and please, please remember, that anger will not fix this tragedy, will not bring anyone back. feel it but don't act on it. the majority of foreigners who have come here have come for the same reason our pilgrims did so long ago. i am angry, appalled, and very saddened by these events. pray for the leaders of all the countries of the world.

please display your flag, put your lights on when you're driving around running errands and take the time to thank your servicemen and women of all walks...this is what they train for.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 234 of 783: Wolf  (wolf) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (20:15) * 1 lines 
 
did you see London playing our National Anthem? i had goosebumps! thank you, that was very moving!! ABC needs to play it again!!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 235 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (20:18) * 5 lines 
 
Re: Israeli airline security
I know many people who have gone through it for years. You live with it.

In the United States, "profiling" would not pass constitutional muster.
It's done right now at the airports at customs on your return.... Has a smuggler sued on that basis???


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 236 of 783: Wolf  (wolf) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (20:29) * 3 lines 
 
i think that security at airports will make honest people feel safe but bad guys do think, how would airports prevent the bad guys from hiring in? and who's to say that that hasn't happened already.

after all this destruction, the news just reported that several people are in custody from JFK and the G airport (i can't spell it at all). i don't know. we all know how bits of info turn into other things and then we have to go back and amend what was reported.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 237 of 783: Liz K  (ekelley) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (21:19) * 1 lines 
 
its LaGuardia. They arrested 5 people at JFK and 4 at LGA. all were of middle east extraction, sporting phony pilots licenses, demanding to get on those flights. They were arrested. Apparently, a group of 3 men tried to get on a flight on Tuesday at JFK, the pilot was suspicious, called port authority police and then the 3 men vanished...


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 238 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (21:24) * 3 lines 
 
Suspicious stuff was detected at check-in and the guys vanished. No pilots were involved.

However, I just heard that a pilot and some flight attendants just tested our new airport security with a pocket knife, a corkscrew and false identification and walked right through and then turned around and told the security personnel. :-(


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 239 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (21:27) * 1 lines 
 
Oh Karen!!! I am happy I have a month before my flight.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 240 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (21:38) * 3 lines 
 
Two groups got arrested/detained today trying to board airplanes with fake id's and knives. Peter Jennings was just talking to Senator Joseph Biden, pressing hard to get him to comment on whether or not we're still under attack. He said these guys were the second string and the crisis was over, but he looked visiably shaken and wasn't very convincing. An astrounding comment he made was that he was afraid where Jennings was going to go next and both of them looked shaken. Cheney was moved to Camp David today. Washington was evacuated.
>
>Whoever's running around with the suitcase nuke or the biological weapon has to be found and stopped before a far worse scenario unfolds.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 241 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (22:23) * 2 lines 
 
The collapse of the WTC towers was detected as a M2.5 on the Richter.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 242 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (22:28) * 1 lines 
 
Not a surprise since each of those floor slabs weighed 300 tons.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 243 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (22:37) * 12 lines 
 
Perhaps it is time to relearn the 4th verse of the National Anthem of the United States. I much prefer it to what we sing now!

Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved homes and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, for our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner forever shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 244 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (22:48) * 3 lines 
 
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/13/jfk.airport.detained/index.html

about today's two hijack attempts.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 245 of 783: Mari Fulginiti  (mari) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (22:53) * 18 lines 
 
I know many people who have gone through it for years. You live with it.

My point exactly.

It's done right now at the airports at customs on your return.... Has a smuggler sued on that basis???

Karen, you know they're talking about profiling on the basis of ethnicity--not picking on middle-class ladies who come off the flight from Milan carrying too many Ferragamo bags.;-).

Re: the Jennings/Biden interview. I saw that too, Terry. Was that the most bizarre interview you've ever seen, or what? Now, it's emerging that these guys were all trying to board flights to the west coast (i.e., planes loaded with fuel); armed with knives; and carrying pilot training certs from the same school in Fla. that the Tuesday bombers had attended. Same M-0! Yet, earlier today, the FAA says it's safe to fly and opens the airports. Now, oops--not NY! The FAA is totally incompetent, IMO, and should be removed immediately from having jurisdiction over whether the planes can be permitted to fly.

However, I just heard that a pilot and some flight attendants just tested our new airport security with a pocket knife, a corkscrew and false identification and walked right through and then turned around and told the security personnel. :-(

See my FAA comment above. It's like Groundhog Day. We keep doing the same thing over and over again, sending out the same poorly-trained minimum wage personnel to do a job that other countries employ highly trained people to do. When I saw the new FAA "security procedures," I'd have laughed if it weren't so pathetic. No plastic knives, huh? Well, that's ok, since they never cut through the crummy food they give you anyway.;-) Seriously, this is *so* primitive!

Unbelievable--as I'm typing this, Ted Koppel is interviewing a passenger from the JFK flight. He said they were ready to take off, then about 20 SWAT team members rushed aboard shouting at everyone to hit the floor, and they pulled 3 people off the flight, one of whom was violently resisting arrest. But hey, let's open those airports. :-( I'm at a loss.





 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 246 of 783: Beth  (Bethanne) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (23:20) * 1 lines 
 
NASA released aerial shots today, of lower Manhatttan taken from outer space. The pre-collapse smoke eminating from the twin towers, is clearly visible. So is the big gaping gap where the twin towers used to be, once they collpased. It was surreal seeing the pictures.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 247 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Thu, Sep 13, 2001 (23:22) * 6 lines 
 
you know they're talking about profiling on the basis of ethnicity--not picking on middle-class ladies who come off the flight from Milan carrying too many Ferragamo bags.;-).
LOL! Am reminded of my astonishment that my own parents were not strip-searched many many years ago on their return from Hong Kong. They must be the only people on the face of the earth who bought nothing. Who would've believed that? ;-)

But seriously, ethnic and other profiling is routine at security/customs checkpoints now. Take drugs for example...or the chubby white guy with Rolexes up and down his arm.

Have just heard back from my cousin, an air traffic controller in Miami. He too says there's no likelihood that any plane would've been a threat to Air Force One. What shocked him is the return to DC. Even after the 4th plane crashed in PA, there were still thousands of planes still in the air. That's why he couldn't go back to DC.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 248 of 783: Rob Glennie  (AotearoaKiwi) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (04:28) * 6 lines 
 
Hi all

I may have upset one or two people when I said "Why do many Americans want war?"
for which I apologise but these people did not care who got hit and some people thought the Libyans should be bombed even though Muhammad Gadaffi (right person??)condemned the attacks. If Libya did have a role then they deserve to get hit but I am only seeing stuff about the Osama bin Laden monster who resides in Afghanistan and whom should be extradited and tried anyway, OR if he is the mastermind, bombed into the ground. Bombs away if they are implicated, and GOD BLESS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GOD BLESS FREEDOM AND GOD BLESS HUMANITY!!!!!!!!!

Rob


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 249 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (08:29) * 1 lines 
 
Could you unlock your Cap Lock key? Thanks.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 250 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (08:49) * 85 lines 
 
My sister sent this to me, I think it's in wide circulation on the net.

Subject: From: "Nadia Zierke"

TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES

This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.

America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a
remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a
Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his
Trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the
most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out
of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars
and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today
paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who
propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries
in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by
tornadoes. Nobody helped.


The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into
discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing
about the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any
other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet,
the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?

If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except
Russia fly American Planes? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you
get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.
You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not
once, but several times - and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store
window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued
and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they
are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa
at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through
age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania
Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old
caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other
people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced
to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even
during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned
tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing
with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their
nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope
Canada is not one of those."

Stand proud, America!

Wear it proudly!!

This is one of the best editorials that I have ever read regarding the
United States. It is nice that one man realizes it. I only wish that the
This is one of the best editorials that I have ever read regarding the
United States. It is nice that one man realizes it. I only wish that the
rest of the world would realize it. We are always blamed for everything,
and never even get a thank you for the things we do.

I would hope that each of you would send this to as many people as you
can and emphasize that they should send it to as many of their friends
until this letter is sent to every person on the web. I am just a single
American that has read this, I SURE HOPE THAT A LOT MORE READ IT SOON.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 251 of 783: Vera  (kolin) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (08:53) * 13 lines 
 
"Tribute to the United States"
This was written by Gordon Sinclair in 1973 regarding the Vietnam war.
Gordon Sinclair died in 1984, but his sentiments resonate powerfully
today.
Canadians mourn with the Americans and are prepared to help any way
they can.
Anywhere between 50-500 Canadians are expected to be among the
casualties of this horrific act.
We are going to have a nationwide memorial service and moment of
silence today.

This attack was against all of us no matter where we live or come
from.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 252 of 783: Evelyn  (lafn) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (09:11) * 3 lines 
 
"you know they're talking about profiling on the basis of ethnicity.."
I can just see the suits now on the basis of racial discrimination . We are a litigious society. This would never be tolerated.
For years I was searched at Heathrow; someone on the Most Wanted List must have looked like me. I never minded. But this would never be done in the US.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 253 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (09:12) * 1 lines 
 
Yes, that email is making its rounds.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 254 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (10:24) * 64 lines 
 
Two of the world's most impressive structures have been taken down and
over 10% of New Yorks office space has been eliminated.

You get a sinking feeling when you read Bin Laden's biography and read
that he has a degree in 1979 from King Abdul Aziz University in ...

Civil Engineering.

He has been running a construction company for over a quarter of a
century.

Meanwhile . . .

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - About 20 police officers, many in SWAT gear,
stormed an American Airlines jetliner at New York's Kennedy Airport on
Thursday, subduing one man and handcuffing two others, possibly
thwarting a hijacking attempt, a passenger aboard the plane told ABC
News.


http://us.news2.yimg.com/f/42/31/7m/dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010914/ts/attack_tradecenter_report_dc_1.html


More (from CNN):

10 people arrested, getting on two planes -- one in JFK, one in
LaGuardia.

Some were trained in piloting at the same school as the hijackers on
Tuesday.

Some got caught at checkpoints, some made it onto planes.

"WASHINGTON, NEW YORK (Reuters)"

...

"The Defense Department asked Bush to authorize the activation of tens of
thousands of military reserve troops for ''homeland defense'', defense
officials said."

"Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld planned to activate between 30,000 and
50,000 reservists to provide ``strike-alert'' jet fighter protection and
perform other duties at domestic military bases."

...

"Afghanistan's ruling Taliban movement, which shelters bin Laden, warned
of revenge ``by other means' if the United States attacked their country
in retaliation for Tuesday's attacks."

...

"An ABC News/Washington Post poll released on Friday showed that nearly
nine in 10 Americans approved of Bush's job performance -- a huge leap in
the aftermath of Tuesday's terror attacks."

"Nearly seven out of 10 Americans supported military action against the
groups or countries responsible for the attacks, even if that meant a
long
war with heavy U.S. casualties, the poll found."


http://us.news2.yimg.com/f/42/31/7m/dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010914/ts/attack_dc_40.html


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 255 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (10:27) * 48 lines 
 
http://islamicsupremecouncil.org/Condemnation/support/bin_ladens_nukes.htm

BIN LADEN'S
NUCLEAR WEAPONS
 
ex-Soviet Warheads Become Fuel for Portable Terrorist Nuclear Bombs

 Arab-funded terrorists smuggle nuclear warheads, purchased from the
Russian mafia with opium and cash out of Russian territory, reaching
Khost overland via secret routes through Uzbekistan. There, former
Soviet scientists remove the active uranium to be processed and placed
in backpack-sized nuclear bombs—ready for transportation to the West
undetected—to explode in a blast of nuclear terror.

Al-Watan al-Arabi, an Arabic language newsmagazine, reports that
worldwide terrorist mastermind Usama bin Laden has used two tons of
opium and $30 million to purchase over twenty nuclear warheads. Bin
Laden has hired an international team of rogue nuclear scientists
working in a secret underground base to convert warheads stolen from
former Soviet republics into miniature portable nuclear devices capable
of striking targets around the globe.

The newsmagazine further states that bin Laden developed ties with the
mafias of former Soviet republics during the Afghan War which provided
him the key to obtaining nuclear missile warheads from the
disintegrating USSR.

The Arab Afghans, as bin Laden’s fighters are often called, have
established extensive bases and networks in many of the Central Asian
and Caucasian republics where, due to the weakness of the central
government and the minimal security, they are able to thrive
unhindered. These terrorist groups operate under the cloak of extremist
Islam claiming to oppose the local governments on religious grounds.
However, in addition to their calls for the overthrow of “corrupt
Islamic governments” these groups serve as a channel for bin Laden to
trade Afghani opium to the Russian mafia in exchange for stolen nuclear
warheads.

Al-Watan’s sources reveal that bin Laden recently sent a delegation
representing himself and the Afghani mafia to meet with the mafias of
the former Soviet republics. These mafia groups share a common
extremist ideology and have disguised their criminal activities under
the name of Islam. These mafias have terrorized the governments of the
newly-formed Central Asian republics intending to destroy them and
replace them with those following their fierce, extremist ideology.

This meeting of mafias was a prelude to bringing bin Laden out of
Afghanistan and into power in one of these Central Asian


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 256 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (10:28) * 2 lines 
 
http://www.smh.com.au/news/0104/30/world/world8.html
http://www.msnbc.com/news/295108.asp


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 257 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (10:39) * 12 lines 
 
I may have posted this before, but it's significant, this is what makes these attacks possible.


Osama Bin Laden is using web encryption - from
an article published months ago in USA Today

http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2001-02-05-binladen.htm


I hate to use the term, but Bin Laden and the terrorists are a global, virtual community, they don't have to be in one physical place to survive, they can disperse to the far corners of the earth and still maintain contact using 128 bit encryption. That's the scariest part of all this this, they are invisible to all our current monitoring technology. They are extremely difficult to pinpoint and attack.

This is what scares me the most about all this.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 258 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (10:39) * 3 lines 
 
WASHINGTON — Hidden in the X-rated pictures on several pornographic Web sites and the posted comments on sports chat rooms may lie the encrypted blueprints of the next terrorist attack against the United States or its allies. It sounds farfetched, but U.S. officials and experts say it's the latest method of communication being used by Osama bin Laden and his associates to outfox law enforcement. Bin Laden, indicted in the bombing in 1998 of two U.S. embassies in East Africa, and others are hiding maps and photographs of terrorist targets and posting instructions for terrorist activities on sports chat rooms, pornographic bulletin boards and other Web sites, U.S. and foreign officials say.

from the above url


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 259 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (10:40) * 49 lines 
 
"Uncrackable encryption is allowing terrorists — Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaida and others — to communicate about their criminal intentions without fear of outside intrusion," FBI Director Louis Freeh said last March during closed-door testimony on terrorism before a Senate panel. "They're thwarting the efforts of law enforcement to detect, prevent and investigate illegal activities."

A terrorist's tool

Once the exclusive domain of the National Security Agency, the super-secret U.S. agency responsible for developing and cracking electronic codes, encryption has become the everyday tool of Muslim extremists in Afghanistan, Albania, Britain, Kashmir, Kosovo, the Philippines, Syria, the USA, the West Bank and Gaza and Yemen, U.S. officials say.

It's become so fundamental to the operations of these groups that bin Laden and other Muslim extremists are teaching it at their camps in Afghanistan and Sudan, they add.

"There is a tendency out there to envision a stereotypical Muslim fighter standing with an AK-47 in barren Afghanistan," says Ben Venzke, director of special intelligence projects for iDEFENSE, a cyberintelligence and risk management company based in Fairfax, Va.

"But Hamas, Hezbollah and bin Laden's groups have very sophisticated, well-educated people. Their technical equipment is good, and they have the bright, young minds to operate them," he said.

U.S. officials say bin Laden's organization, al-Qaida, uses money from Muslim sympathizers to purchase computers from stores or by mail. Bin Laden's followers download easy-to-use encryption programs from the Web, officials say, and have used the programs to help plan or carry out three of their most recent plots:

Wadih El Hage, one of the suspects in the 1998 bombing of two U.S. embassies in East Africa, sent encrypted e-mails under various names, including "Norman" and "Abdus Sabbur," to "associates in al Qaida," according to the Oct. 25, 1998, U.S. indictment against him. Hage went on trial Monday in federal court in New York.
Khalil Deek, an alleged terrorist arrested in Pakistan in 1999, used encrypted computer files to plot bombings in Jordan at the turn of the millennium, U.S. officials say. Authorities found Deek's computer at his Peshawar, Pakistan, home and flew it to the National Security Agency in Fort Meade, Md. Mathematicians, using supercomputers, decoded the files, enabling the FBI to foil the plot.
Ramzi Yousef, the convicted mastermind of the World Trade Center bombing in 1993, used encrypted files to hide details of a plot to destroy 11 U.S. airliners. Philippines officials found the computer in Yousef's Manila apartment in 1995. U.S. officials broke the encryption and foiled the plot. Two of the files, FBI officials say, took more than a year to decrypt.
"All the Islamists and terrorist groups are now using the Internet to spread their messages," says Reuven Paz, academic director of the Institute for Counter-Terrorism, an independent Israeli think tank.

Messages in dots

U.S. officials and militant Muslim groups say terrorists began using encryption — which scrambles data and then hides the data in existing images — about five years ago.

But the groups recently increased its use after U.S. law enforcement authorities revealed they were tapping bin Laden's satellite telephone calls from his base in Afghanistan and tracking his activities.

"It's brilliant," says Ahmed Jabril, spokesman for the militant group Hezbollah in London. "Now it's possible to send a verse from the Koran, an appeal for charity and even a call for jihad and know it will not be seen by anyone hostile to our faith, like the Americans."

Extremist groups are not only using encryption to disguise their e-mails but their voices, too, Attorney General Janet Reno told a presidential panel on terrorism last year, headed by former CIA director John Deutsch. Encryption programs also can scramble telephone conversations when the phones are plugged into a computer.

"In the future, we may tap a conversation in which the terrorist discusses the location of a bomb soon to go off, but we will be unable to prevent the terrorist act when we cannot understand the conversation," Reno said.

Here's how it works: Each image, whether a picture or a map, is created by a series of dots. Inside the dots are a string of letters and numbers that computers read to create the image. A coded message or another image can be hidden in those letters and numbers.

They're hidden using free encryption Internet programs set up by privacy advocacy groups. The programs scramble the messages or pictures into existing images. The images can only be unlocked using a "private key," or code, selected by the recipient, experts add. Otherwise, they're impossible to see or read.

"You very well could have a photograph and image with the time and information of an attack sitting on your computer, and you would never know it," Venzke says. "It will look no different than a photograph exchanged between two friends or family members."

U.S. officials concede it's difficult to intercept, let alone find, encrypted messages and images on the Internet's estimated 28 billion images and 2 billion Web sites.

Even if they find it, the encrypted message or image is impossible to read without cracking the encryption's code. A senior Defense Department mathematician says cracking a code often requires lots of time and the use of a government supercomputer.

It's no wonder the FBI wants all encryption programs to file what amounts to a "master key" with a federal authority that would allow them, with a judge's permission, to decrypt a code in a case of national security. But civil liberties groups, which offer encryption programs on the Web to further privacy, have vowed to fight it.

Officials say the Internet has become the modern version of the "dead drop," a slang term describing the location where Cold War-era spies left maps, pictures and other information.

But unlike the "dead drop," the Internet, U.S. officials say, is proving to be a much more secure way to conduct clandestine warfare.

"Who ever thought that sending encrypted streams of data across the Internet could produce a map on the other end saying 'this is where your target is' or 'here's how to kill them'?" says Paul Beaver, spokesman for Jane's Defense Weekly in London, which reports on defense and cyberterrorism issues. "And who ever thought it could be done with near perfect security? The Internet has proven to be a boon for terrorists."



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 260 of 783: Charlotte  (Charlotte) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (10:42) * 6 lines 
 
"I can tell you that El Al maintains a high level of security for its passengers by not discussing its procedures in the media," he said.


HEAR, HEAR!

Am I alone in believing that far too much information is given to terrorists, criminals, enemies in the name of "freedom of speech"?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 261 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (10:48) * 54 lines 
 
And as a follow up to the above, from zdnet news

The hunt for suspects in Tuesday's terrorist attacks has moved online.
America Online has handed the FBI e-mail records for accounts belonging to the suspected hijackers, according to a report on CNN's Web site Thursday. AOL spokesman Andrew Weinstein declined to comment on any matters involving the investigation.

AOL Time Warner's online division stores logs of when instant messaging users are on the network; it also can access e-mail correspondence under certain situations.



"We are cooperating with (the FBI) in this ongoing investigation," Nicholas Graham, spokesman for Dulles, Va.-based AOL, said Wednesday. Although Graham wouldn't provide details, he denied reports that the company had agreed to install a Carnivore surveillance system. The FBI developed Carnivore, now renamed DCS1000, to allow it to wiretap communications that go through Internet service providers.

"We are able to provide them with information on an immediate basis," he said, stressing that such an ability made Carnivore unnecessary.

On Wednesday, EarthLink also acknowledged that it is working with the FBI to turn over specific information that may be relevant to the case.

EarthLink's vice president of communications, Dan Greenfield, confirmed that the Atlanta-based ISP was served with a warrant under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) to turn over information.

FISA limits the ability of intelligence and law enforcement agencies--essentially the FBI, the CIA and the military information-gathering National Security Agency--from spying on the American public. The warrant covers investigations relating to the leakage of information to a foreign government and requires less burden of proof than a warrant in a criminal case. The directors of the FBI and the CIA as well as the secretaries of state and defense are the only government officials allowed to request a FISA warrant.

Calling the warrant "equivalent to a wiretap," Greenfield also denied that the company had let the FBI install a Carnivore system.

"We are not installing any equipment," he said. "We are cooperating with a very specific request. There are concerns from our customers that we are giving arbitrary access to our network, and we are not."

Most of the clues that have turned up so far in the hunt for suspects have been dug up through typical investigative footwork, not high-tech sleuthing.

Authorities are searching for the accomplices of a well-organized group of suicide hijackers who commandeered four commercial jets Tuesday, effectively turning them into flying bombs. Two flattened the World Trade Center, while a third seriously damaged the Pentagon. The fourth plane crashed in a field.

Some of the victims on hijacked aircraft used cell phones to describe the attacks to people on the ground. In addition, a review of the passenger lists has offered some leads.

So far, five Arab men have been identified by Massachusetts authorities as suspects, according to two Boston newspapers. Authorities have also seized a rental car containing Arabic-language flight-training manuals at the city's Logan International Airport, where two of the hijacked planes originated, the papers reported.

U.S. agents served warrants on homes and searched businesses in south Florida; they also issued alerts for two cars in connection with the attacks, local media reported.

Jack Mattera, director of computer forensics for The Intelligence Group, which specializes in corporate investigations and crisis management, stressed that information technology will likely play a crucial role in finding out who planned the suicide attacks.

"Using high-tech to investigate is critical," he said. "There are some things that gumshoe work is just not going to find."

Security experts described Tuesday's attack as low-tech, with reports of knives being used as the primary weapons in the hijackings. Nevertheless, many suspect computers and the Internet may have played a critical role in planning the complex and highly coordinated operation.

In February, George Tenet, the director of the CIA, warned members of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence that terrorists were using the Internet and high-tech tools to communicate.

"International terrorist networks have used the explosion in information technology to advance their capabilities," he told the committee.

Mark Mansfield, spokesman for the CIA, declined to explain what tools the agency was bringing to bear, saying "it would be ill-advised for us to talk about (our methods). It would not be a prudent thing to do."

Both the NSA and the FBI declined comment as well.

However, The Intelligence Group's Mattera said he believed that the requests for online information may be to check out the people who posted suspicious information in public chat rooms or online.

"I think there is some indication that there may have been some information posted to different groups that didn't specifically alert people at the time, but now they may be able to go back and connect it to the suspects," he said.

"Two days ago, a (virulent) e-mail may not have meant anything," he said, "but today they will run it down and see if it's a clue."




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 262 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (10:51) * 49 lines 
 
Gerard is still talking to us from on the ground in NYC.

Gerard Van der Leun (boswell) Fri Sep 14 '01 (08:37) 45 lines



Early this morning, looking out the window at the street,
I suddenly started to see in my mind a whole chain of
images from the last week. This was the first day when
I had nothing in front of me that I had to do, and
I just started to run the images... the rumble in my
building, the confused chatter on the radio, the
television images of the second plane coming in...

the street outside my house with dozens all running
toward the promenade to see the horro across the river..

the twin towers tall in the crisp and bright morning
with the flames and smoke streaming up like obscene
claws coming out of the building.


and the sound and the sight of the first tower just
going down and going down and the blast of dust up and
spewing out of the canyons of wall street and the
screams and wails around me as what we saw was so
far beyond our ability to comprehend the enormity of
it that we could have been just ants gazing at the
sole of a descending boot... and the sick wet
rumble that came across the water like a screaming
beast having its innards torn out


and the smoke, the immense plume of smoke that darkened
the sun and went on and still goes on...

and the rest of the day a dim numb blur

i had i think something to eat and i went to get coffee
in the bright sunlight with a friend

and i called my daughter and found she was safe
and far uptown, except of course she was not safe,
as none of our children will ever be safe again
until that thing that caused this is crushed and
killed and ground to dust and sent down into the
pit of oblivion forever.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 263 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (10:59) * 30 lines 
 
Gerard Van der Leun (boswell) Fri Sep 14 '01 (08:43) 28 lines


and going back to my place and watching the endless
repeats and the endless parade of the doomed and the
wounded

and the hordes of people in the distance jamming the
bridge, the brooklyn bridge on which two large american
flags fly, these people all going one direction, one
direction only... out and away from the stench and
the terror and the death...

and somewhere in there the second tower came down
down on thousands trying to escape and down on hundreds
of what have to be the bravest and most noble souls
in the world, the fireman, the fireman who were going
up the stairs...

up the stairs...

UP THE STAIRS...

we cannot know what sort of human spirit that takes
we can never know... i have no humanity and no manhood
and no courage when compared to these men, none of
us do none of us...

do you all understand that they went into this building
and up the stairs?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 264 of 783: Liz K  (ekelley) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (10:59) * 1 lines 
 
I am ready and willing to give up my civil liberties if it means that we can remain safe here in the US and the rest of the world. People need to realize that right now, and not complain about it, as they inevitably will.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 265 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (11:04) * 49 lines 
 
Gerard Van der Leun (boswell) Fri Sep 14 '01 (08:56) 50 lines

and the day went on and went on... inside to television..
outside into the reality...

and the smell of it got stronger and the white ash of
concrete ash of steel ash of paper ash of human beings
drifted over me and everythingand everyone around me and
settled white and obscene on everything and the smoke
went on and the streets were filled with people whose
faces were filled with fear and with grief and with anger
and nobody spoke except to whisper to those next to them
that they knew or perhaps did not know but knew now
in this terrible day

at some point i began to take pictures of the skyline
which was not there any more, of the lives that weren't
there any more... of little things... but it wasn't
any use... it was pointless... feeling grief was
pointless... only rage seemed to have a point, rage
and hate, and it seemed important, very very important
to retain that rage and hate as a wall against the
pain and the despair...

i walked out again and again to look across the river
and to smell the smoke and to see the dust because
i knew that nothing would ever be the same again,
i knew that something had killed my world and the world
of those i loved... of the world of all of us...and that
no matter what we did that world would never be returned
to us... that we could and we must honor and remember it..
that we must take terrible and complete vengence on those
whose evil took it from us no matter what the cost...

but that world, that indian summer world, would not
be returned anymore than the lives of those who went
up the stairs in the burning and collapsing tower
would be returned.

this morning for the first time i have been weeping,
weeping not in tears but in a kind of dry low screaming
agony that sweeps up in my chest. it comes and
shakes me and then it goes away.

i'm going to go out into this world now to tend to
the little needs of my little day in my little world.

i can't bear to remember anymore of this week for now
even though I remember it all.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 266 of 783: Vera  (kolin) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (11:41) * 2 lines 
 
Over 100,000 people participated at the memorial service in Ottawa, with speeches by Jean Chretien, US ambassador Paul Celluci and Governor General Adrienne Clarkson.
Chretien expressed the resolve of Canada to fully supprt U.S at this difficult time.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 267 of 783: Evelyn  (lafn) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (13:06) * 3 lines 
 
Tony Blair's speech to the special session of Parliament was carried on FOX.
He also expressed the support and allegiance to the US in tracking down the terrorists by every means available.
Eloquent and sincere. Much appreciated.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 268 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (13:13) * 8 lines 
 
Am I alone in believing that far too much information is given to terrorists, criminals, enemies in the name of "freedom of speech"?
You are walking a very thin line here. But I agree with you.

The thought of them having the possibility to make "backpack nuclear bombs" is a scary one. God bless us all!






 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 269 of 783: Lucille Oftedahl  (alyeska) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (13:33) * 5 lines 
 
President Bush gave a very inspiring speech at the National Cathedral as did Billy Graham.

I was reduced to tears.

My friend Jean is still awaiting word of her sister who was at the WTC for a conference.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 270 of 783: Lucie  (alyeska) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (13:33) * 1 lines 
 



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 271 of 783: rachael  (rachael) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (13:49) * 9 lines 
 
we had a three minute silence and a candle-lit vigil at work today, at 11am, led by our chaplain. It was very moving and I'm glad I was there, although it feels such a small thing to do in the face of such enormity. Tony Blair said we (in the UK) stand shoulder to shoulder with the USA; NATO said an attack on one of us is an attack on all of us; we know now that this is true, that along with thousands of Americans were hundreds of British citizens, Irish, Canadians, Australians, and more, and this event will touch many of us, world wide.

My father, my uncle, and my grandfather were all firefighters. The loss of some of New York's finest is keenly felt in this home, many miles away.

I'm lucky, my friend escaped, my cousin's colleagues and friends are safe. My heart goes out to those not so lucky, and I just hope the prayers we said and the thoughts we had, at 11am this morning in the UK, go some way to comfort those shouldering terrible burdens.

I think I read somewhere that at 7pm tonight, US time, candles will be lit. 7pm in NYC is midnight here; I'll be lighting a candle then. Shoulder to shoulder; an attack on one of us is an attack on all of us.

God bless you


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 272 of 783: Eileen  (EileenG) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (14:10) * 4 lines 
 
(Mari) When I saw the new FAA "security procedures," I'd have laughed if it weren't so pathetic. No plastic knives, huh? Well, that's ok, since they never cut through the crummy food they give you anyway.;-) Seriously, this is *so* primitive!
B'ness as usual: 1. Panic. 2. Create specific reactive measures instead of broad proactive measures (golly gee, all 18+ hijackers answered the 'did you pack you own suitcase' question truthfully and they probably skipped curbside check-in). 3. Panic some more. Aargh! I was also LOL about the knives. Whatever will they do in first class, where the cutable food is served? Wait until someone chokes and sues. Or maybe they'll just ban airline food all together, or restrict it to the likes of those Otis Spunkmeyer cookies served by SouthWest. ;-)

Winter, by the time you leave for Indo the carry-on requirements might be better defined. You could also look into shipping some of those items ahead.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 273 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (14:24) * 93 lines 
 
posted to a listserve

Dear Friends,

The following was sent to me by my friend Tamim Ansary. Tamim is an
Afghani-American writer. He is also one of the most brilliant people
I know in this life. When he writes, I read. When he talks, I listen.
Here is his take on Afghanistan and the whole mess we are in.
-Gary T.


Dear Gary and whoever else is on this email thread:
I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the
Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this
would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with
this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage.
What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing
whether we "have the belly to do what must be done."

And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I
am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've
never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who
will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.

I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no
doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in
New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters.

But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even
the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant
psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political
criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you
think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of
Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not
only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They
were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone
would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest
of international thugs holed up in their country.

Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The
answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering.
A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000
disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food.
There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these
widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the
farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the
reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.

We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone
Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it
already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level
their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done.
Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut
them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did
all that.

New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at
least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the
Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip
away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled
orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs.
But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike
against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would
only be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the
people they've been raping all this time

So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with
true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in
there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do
what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to
kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms
about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand.
What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because
some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin
Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any
troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let
us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will
other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're
flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.

And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he
wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's
all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It
might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into
Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a
holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to
lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's
probably wrong, in the end the west would win, whatever that would
mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just
theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone
else?

Tamim Ansary


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 274 of 783: Rebecca Carson  (Becka) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (14:33) * 11 lines 
 
Rachael -

My father, too, was one of the head Fire Chiefs in Toronto. Two of my uncles are currently Captains (it seems to run in families, doesn't it?)

I am totally devastated by the deaths of those brave men. My Dad is crushed, and he just had a cornea transplant which makes his pain even worse. My Dad had meet those chiefs who died in NYC on a couple of occassions at international events. If it had been here, in Toronto, I probably would have lost a few members of my family.

I am trying to help my Dad's department organize something here cause like many, I really want to help.

At the moment I have had to turn the TV off as they are putting faces on the dead, and it is breaking my heart.

Here in Canada 100,000 people showed up at Parliament Hill in Ottawa for a memorial ceremony - that is a huge number. I am so proud of Canadians, so proud for the world for sharing in this grief.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 275 of 783: Eileen  (EileenG) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (14:43) * 1 lines 
 
Had the TV on all morning, sobbing. Each story is more heartbreaking than the next.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 276 of 783: suzee   (suzee202000) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (15:15) * 35 lines 
 
Washington Post
New York Airport Suspects Cleared
By Donna De La Cruz
Associated Press Writer
Friday, Sept. 14, 2001; 11:12 a.m. EDT

NEW YORK –– About a dozen travelers of Middle Eastern descent who were detained at two New York airports have been cleared of any connection with this week's terrorist attacks, federal authorities said Friday.

One person, however, remained in custody, said Barry Mawn, head of the FBI's New York office. That person had not immediately been charged and may be released, Mawn said.

The incidents Thursday caused the region's three major airports – Kennedy, LaGuardia and Newark, N.J. – to close again just hours after service had been restored because of the attacks.

Authorities had been investigating whether the two groups – detained at Kennedy and LaGuardia – were more would-be hijackers or people related to the attack trying to flee the New York area.

Sen. Joseph Biden, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, told CNN the arrests were based on suspicions that the men were linked to Tuesday's attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon.

One man was arrested because he was belligerent, while the others were merely detained and questioned, according to the senator's chief of staff, Alan Hoffman.

Biden said there were explanations for the suspicions. One man was originally thought to be traveling with a fake pilot's license. Biden said the man was a pilot who also had his brother's identification.

"His brother happened to live in an apartment complex that was one in Boston where some of these people had actually been," said Biden, D-Del.

Others were traveling to a Boeing Co. conference, either because they work for the airline manufacturer or were invited, Biden added.

"The folks at the airport thought, 'Hey, wait a minute, are they impersonating crew?' And they weren't."

Mawn said he could not verify reports that the individuals had been taken forcibly off a plane.
----------------------------

I saw an interview on Good Morning American. A passenger said the pilot - after
talking with those on board - told them to buckle up because they would soon be
taking off. About 20 minutes later, men with guns drawn, in full riot gear,
came in the rear and took the suspects away.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 277 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (15:21) * 3 lines 
 
This is incredible stuff - world wide empathy and support feels very good, indeed.

Lest anyone mistake Rob's comments in Caps, I want to assure you that he is a very special friend; conservative, itelligent and thoughtful. He is not given to overstatement nor emotionalism. Emphasis is what those Caps were for, and, Rob, many warm thanks for your doing so.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 278 of 783: Evelyn  (lafn) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (15:49) * 2 lines 
 
Tamim Ansary. Tamim is an Afghani-American writer.
Wonder what this guy is doing to help his country except write emails?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 279 of 783: suzee   (suzee202000) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (15:55) * 35 lines 
 
Washington Post
New York Airport Suspects Cleared
By Donna De La Cruz
Associated Press Writer
Friday, Sept. 14, 2001; 11:12 a.m. EDT

NEW YORK –– About a dozen travelers of Middle Eastern descent who were detained at two New York airports have been cleared of any connection with this week's terrorist attacks, federal authorities said Friday.

One person, however, remained in custody, said Barry Mawn, head of the FBI's New York office. That person had not immediately been charged and may be released, Mawn said.

The incidents Thursday caused the region's three major airports – Kennedy, LaGuardia and Newark, N.J. – to close again just hours after service had been restored because of the attacks.

Authorities had been investigating whether the two groups – detained at Kennedy and LaGuardia – were more would-be hijackers or people related to the attack trying to flee the New York area.

Sen. Joseph Biden, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, told CNN the arrests were based on suspicions that the men were linked to Tuesday's attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon.

One man was arrested because he was belligerent, while the others were merely detained and questioned, according to the senator's chief of staff, Alan Hoffman.

Biden said there were explanations for the suspicions. One man was originally thought to be traveling with a fake pilot's license. Biden said the man was a pilot who also had his brother's identification.

"His brother happened to live in an apartment complex that was one in Boston where some of these people had actually been," said Biden, D-Del.

Others were traveling to a Boeing Co. conference, either because they work for the airline manufacturer or were invited, Biden added.

"The folks at the airport thought, 'Hey, wait a minute, are they impersonating crew?' And they weren't."

Mawn said he could not verify reports that the individuals had been taken forcibly off a plane.
----------------------------

I saw an interview on Good Morning American. A passenger said the pilot - after
talking with those on board - told them to buckle up because they would soon be
taking off. About 20 minutes later, men with guns drawn, in full riot gear,
came in the rear and took the suspects away.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 280 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (16:00) * 197 lines 
 
Womack Diary, Day 3 *8-/

Subject: Day 3, and this morning
Date: Friday, September 14, 2001 9:10 AM
From: Womack, Jack


Our secretary Heather (who just moved here from Alaska, two weeks ago) and
myself are the only people on our floor so far this morning. Yesterday we
were essentially told the building would be open, but after that it was up
to us. And, as my ISP is down in the Closed Zone (I called them "control
zones,"), I can't do email from home (and so won't be writing again till
Monday), here I am, at least for a couple of hours.

This morning it's raining, very hard, a frog-strangler. I don't think it's
rained this hard this consistently all year. My pants are still wet and the
tie's soaked through. This has made rescue attempts pretty much impossible,
today, not that at this point anyone is really expecting survivors -- they
were saying on the news that the dust down there, wet, has the consistency
of oatmeal; and that with every half-inch of rain that falls, several
additional tons of weight begin pressing down on everything. The subways
down there have also all flooded, even before this, what with water main
breaks in evidently several locations (This water of course is also soaking
into foundations throughout the area). It's also turning much cooler --
somewhere in the 60s today, and yesterday afternoon it got up to the
mid-80s, I think, and was humid enough to notice.

It came to me this morning that the reason 30,000 body bags are on hand for
what appears will be 5,000 casualties is that the 5,000 are all in pieces,
and each piece of course will need to be bagged separately.

There was a drawing in the Daily News today showing the outlines of all the
buildings surrounding where the Trade Towers stood, and noting that at least
9 of them have suffered major structural damage. The Milennium (sic) Hotel
and 1 Liberty Plaza I mentioned yesterday. Among the others in bad shape is
one of my favorites, the 1927 Bell Telephone building at the corner of
Barclay & West. It stands next to both the North Tower and 7 WTC, both of
which collapsed. It's a Ferris-silhouette art deco beauty, and the building
is built over the sidewalk on the Barclay St. side, a stone arcade running
the length of the block. Cool in the summer.

It looks like the only residential area fully evacuated was Battery Park
City, where Ellie lives (she is still staying with patrick & Teresa, I am
hoping she's been able to get some sleep soon). No word on when that'll open
back up but I can't imagine it'll be anytime soon.

THis morning, coming out of the subway, I was maybe one of three or four
people. After yesterday, which at moments almost felt like a normal day (or,
rather, a day in the gone world), today seems much more like Wednesday did,
except far more grim due to the rain. As all of you know in the rain New
York's color goes, essentially, gray. Very gray. And that's how it looks
today. With luck, it will at least finally clear the dust out of the
atmosphere (it struck me yesterday that one of the many interesting things
we've all been breathing in the past few days are bits of infinitesimally
powdered glass). But if the other buildings start falling, the cloud will
come back.

In this sort of weather in the past, of course, the cloud cover overlying NY
would generally be so low as to hide the Trade Towers for view, and it was
pleasant to be able to fantasize, at such moments, what downtown NY used to
look like when they weren't there. I was reading, somewhere, that some
European is already saying that he & others will get all European nations to
help rebuild at least one of the towers if not both, bigger and taller and
clearly even more of a hideous target. Thank you Europe, but no, please.

Here are the ongoing bigger or more interesting changes in the event, both
onsite and in media, that I'm noticing. I talked about some of these last
night with Clute.

1. The first media memorial teddy bear site appeared. In Union Square, which
is right at 14th Street where the No-Traffic Zone begins. Some workmen
brought up a piece of steel from the Trade Towers and wrapped it around a
stele, or flagpole, or something -- they never pan up of course to show you
what the thing is, focusing instead on the flowers being left. The one good
thing is at this point, no teddy bears have appeared. It's mostly single
flowers and pictures of missing people, so I'm actually not sure that a
media-driven Mourning Zone will take hold. I suspect because everything in
New York is a Mourning Zone, and everyone here is too much in shock, still,
to even be thinking of those goddamned teddy bears.

2. The dawning awareness of New Yorkers, such as myself & Ellen Datlow (who
I met for a couple of drinks last night, down in Chelsea, as she was finally
able to get above 14th.), that this is actually being paid attention to out
in the country. A very funny thing, this -- the sense I think held to
varying lengths of time by people who live here that what has happened is in
some ways just the mother of all water main breaks. It's impossible for me
to really sense, that is, what the mood of a non-New Yorker living in the US
is just now, because even now I cannot see it from a non-New York
perspective. I always knew New Yorkers were the biggest provincials and this
just proves it...

3. Yesterday I walked from work (5th & 53rd) to meet Ellen at a restaurant
at 8th & 18th, down in Chelsea. On the way down I saw a large group of
people gathered around the front of a souvenir shop, and realized they were
going through the postcards buying any with the Trade Towers on them; saw
people standing out in front of hotels, clearly not flying out anywhere
again today; and on all the mailboxes, in telephone kiosks, on parked vans,
on walls, the more the further down I got, photocopied flyers with a photo
and a name and a number. We see dead people everywhere.

4. Anti-Arab action increasing, in Brooklyn, but still I think on a smaller
scale than what seems to be happening in Michigan and elsewhere. On the day
of the event the Uzbekhi guys' frame shop in my neighborhood & Samad's Deli
immediately closed. The poor guys were obviously terrified they were going
to be overrun -- like anyone at either place would ever have time to be a
terrorist; they're always at work. Most New Yorkers I think aren't buying
into this, however.

5. But we can always count on the reliable Richard Brookhiser, who in his NY
Observer column yesterday was baying for the nukes, and the Post as ever,
came through. From yesterday's editorial -- sic the James Ellroy-like use of
single sentences as paragraphs:

"The heavens need to fall on their heads.
They need to bleed.
Not next month. Not next week.
Now.
Who are they? Who cares?
Cast a wide enough net, and you'll catch the fish that need catching."

Clute actually didn't believe me at first when I read this aloud to him.
Notice how by the final sentence the author sounds exactly like an Arab
Terrorist Making Ominously Vague Statements Directed At The West. Like
attracts like, I suppose.

6. The Disaster Videos. The gang in the network editing rooms have had
enough time to put together Meaningful, Olympics-like Montages. Last night's
on NBC at 12 midnight was scored to Dylan -- I think it was Dylan, late
Dylan, now that his voice is indistinguishable from that of Joseph Spence --
singing "We Shall Overcome." Better than Celine Dion, I suppose, but the
worst instincts of the media are of course beginning to emerge. Paul McAuley
tells me of seeing of UK TV the same thing I saw, though done by different
broadcasters, i.e. as PM put it "two grinning journos demonstrated how easy
it is to use MicroSoft Flight Simulator to ram the Twin Towers. The street
finds its own use for technology...." Also, they're filling up the time with
human interest stories, i.e., talking to someone holding up one of the
aforementioned flyers and saying that they can't give up hope, and talking
to people who have given up hope. Terribly invasive in both instances.

7. A shrink, around 11:30 last night on ABC, was saying that it is
completely possible to get PTSD (post-traumatic stress disorder, no longer
"syndrome.") through constant watching of the event on TV. So not only will
I be living in a city in which nearly all the citizens, myself included,
will to some degree be effected by this for months or years, but a good
percentage of everybody else in the country, and the world, as well.

8. Probably in relation to the former, I am having a very hard time wanting
to know more about the ones they arrested at LaGuardia & Newark yesterday. I
haven't even begun to process the event. I hadn't really begun to process
the event of my stepmother's dying suddenly, last week. So no, I can't say
I'd want to hear *what else* may happen. The desire to extrapolate is,
suddenly, gone. Clute & I were talking yesterday about the limitations of
metaphor which this event will bring about (he'd better explain it, though).

9. I feel pretty sure that we're not going to be seeing many new big budget
blow-em-up movies at least for a while, and we will never view the ones that
have already come out, in the past, employing the same eyes again.

10. In relation to some degree with the former, the way in which,
periodically, scenes I am viewing in real life are reminiscent, or nearly
identical to familiar scenes in movies. One particular view of downtown last
night could have come straight out of Bladerunner, no problem; and a view
from midtown from the Empire State Building looking downtown, in a
sunset-filled orange cloud overhanging the city, looking almost exactly like
the old (Bantam, I think) cover of Walter Tevis' MOCKINGBIRD.

11. In relation probably to PTSD, however small-scale, I feel myself at
moments, for one of the few times in my life (the other being at certain
times in Russia, and at the Galleries Lafayette food hall in Paris) at
absolute sensory overload -- that if I know another sensation, just at that
moment, I'll become ill. At that point I leave the room, or change the
channel to something else. Forbidden Planet was on last night, and I much
enjoyed watching it. It was science-fiction not set on earth --

12. I'm not sure that Blinky, standing at his desk while expressing his
concern, is better than Blinky sitting at his desk, expressing his concern;
but I suppose his minders felt it gave him more of that Oprah feel.

And I think I've reached sensory overload, writing about it. So for now I'll
stop. More co-workers have come in, but it's still not a normal day by any
stretch. I figure I'll be leaving around noon, as before. Hard rain,
falling.

I'll actually leave the last word to Paul, who closed his letter to me today
with this; and I couldn't do better.

The Last Night of the Proms, the traditional end to the Promenade series of
concerts, traditionally finishes with a rousing queasily patriotic chorus of
'Land of Hope and Glory'. Not now: instead, Leonard Slatkin will be
conducting the orchestral setting of Barber's 'Adagio for Strings', which
thanks to Oliver Stone has become your plangent accompaniment to national
mourning, followed by the defiant thunder of the last movement of
Beethoven's Ninth.

They've judged it right.

Paul


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 281 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (16:08) * 5 lines 
 
Evelyn, Tamsin is an Afghani-American who has been living here for 35. His country is America.

Thank you for posting Tamsin's letter.
We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.
My husband is Italian and he has been saying this for years, that it would happen. This is their holy war, this is just what they want. Americans and the international community believe they will be going to war to fight against terrorist, but they will be fighting the holy war.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 282 of 783: Cheryl  (CherylB) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (16:26) * 5 lines 
 
Marcia, I wasn't at all offended by Rob's use of capital letters. He only used them to emphasize one particular thought in his post. It is a time of high emotion and different people express themselves differently. As it is also a time of high stress, some may react to certain things more strongly than would be the norm. It would seem that no harm was meant either by Rob or those who had been put off by his use of upper case letters.

I've been able to contact my friends living in New York. Everyone is physically fine, but they say that they feel emotionally sick and bruised. So do I for that matter.

Lastly, the Pennsylvania crash site isn't all that near Pittsburgh. It lies about 80 miles to the southeast, near the Maryland border, about 35 miles SSW of Johnstown. Pittsburgh is the largest city near it, and more people have an idea of where Pittsburgh is than were Johnstown, PA is. The plane crashed in Somerset county which is a very rural area. It came down in a cornfield. Fortunately no one on the ground was hurt.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 283 of 783: Charlotte  (Charlotte) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (16:37) * 1 lines 
 
Last night one network (I forget which) reported that they had "found" 10 policemen on the 2nd underground level...one of them had reached his wife via cel phone. Has anyone heard more about this? Is it confirmed? I could find nothing about it on any of the other networks.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 284 of 783: suzee martin  (suzee202000) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (17:03) * 49 lines 
 
It was a hoax.

Friday September 14 11:36 AM ET
NY Mayor Asks Media for Accuracy
By DAVID BAUDER, AP Television Writer

NEW YORK (AP) - Mayor Rudolph Giuliani (news - web sites) asked the news media to be more careful reporting about the World Trade Center rescue operation Friday, saying wrong information is raising false hopes and endangering workers.

``Some of it can be very dangerous and emotionally damaging,'' he said.

He cited false reports that a potential survivor had been in contact with people by cell phone, and that 10 or 15 people were trapped alive in a store.

Media outlets reported Thursday that five firefighters trapped since Tuesday had been rescued from the trade center rubble. It later turned out that only two who were trapped in an air pocket for several hours Thursday were found alive.

Not only does false information play with the emotions of people with missing friends and relatives, it can send rescue workers on dangerous, fruitless chases, he said. He urged news organizations not to report such details until confirmed by police and FBI (news - web sites).

``If we could all be a little more patient and verify information before we put it out, we won't raise people's hopes unnecessarily,'' Giuliani said.

CNN anchorwoman Paula Zahn, responding on the air to Giuliani's request, noted that it has been difficult to get accurate information out of the rescue site.

``We're all trying to heed this advice,'' she said. ``Unfortunately, everybody is being given conflicting information.''

ABC, CBS, NBC and the cable networks were into their fourth day of exclusive devotion to the story on Friday. News executives say they're keeping in mind television's role as a national gathering place in times of emergency.

Network news chiefs uniformly expressed pride in how their profession has performed this week.

``There's really been a careful approach to the story that combines aggressiveness in getting information out with the awareness that we should not be speculating and we should not be alarming people,'' said CBS News President Andrew Heyward.

NBC is being careful in its wording to not equate Islam with extremism even if some of the religion's believers masterminded the attack, network news President Neal Shapiro said.

Until Giuliani announced Thursday that 4,763 people were missing at the World Trade Center, networks had generally been careful not to guess on the number of casualties. An exception: network reports that as many as 800 people died at the Pentagon; the estimate is now 190. There were also widely varying reports on the number of body bags brought to the World Trade Center site.

News organizations also made different decisions when confronted with video depicting victims jumping from the World Trade Center to certain deaths; CBS showed it, ABC refused.

``It was not some sort of gratuitous, individual tragedy where we were exploiting someone's personal pain for some kind of sensational purpose,'' Heyward said. ``Quite the opposite. This was absolutely germane to the context of the story and vividly conveyed the sheer horror in a way that was journalistically appropriate.''

Offered the same video, ``without any hesitation we turned it down,'' said ABC News President David Westin. ``I don't believe that showing actual human beings leaping to their deaths was helpful.''

CNN showed images of things falling from the World Trade Center, but they weren't necessarily identifiable as humans, CNN Chairman Walter Isaacson said. NBC showed footage of a body falling once and decided not to anymore. The same was true at Fox News Channel.

``I don't think it's an easy call,'' NBC's Shapiro said. ``I don't condemn anybody who chose to run it.''

At least two networks were planning specials to help children cope. Peter Jennings will anchor a one-hour ABC special for youngsters Saturday morning, and Nickelodeon will present ``Nick News: Kids, Terrorism and the American Spirit'' with Linda Ellerbee on Sunday night.
----------------------------------------


If someone who knows how would delete my double post, I would be grateful.
-- I think I hit reload and it sent all again - at least it shows on my computer.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 285 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (17:07) * 1 lines 
 



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 286 of 783: Charlotte  (Charlotte) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (17:18) * 1 lines 
 
Thanks, Suzee. (I only saw one copy of your post, by the way.)


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 287 of 783: Wolf  (wolf) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (18:27) * 7 lines 
 
we are skating on thin ice in this topic by venting our anger here. this will not help anyone. the afghani-american writer above makes sense, IMMHO. the Holy War is what these people want. and they sure as heck are trying hard to get it too. it's all around us, look at Israel, look at the Serbs, look at Ireland, for goodness sakes. this is ridiculous.

ok, the service today was wonderful though i was a bit worried about all those people in the same place.

tonight at 7, please light a candle!! and if you've flown a flag today, thank you so much. my sub-division either didn't have the flags or were too afraid to show them but to those who did, thank you very much!!




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 288 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (20:00) * 3 lines 
 
My candle is lit and sitting vigil at the base of my flagpole.. 7 PM was 1 PM here and it is broad day light. The candle will remain as long as it burns. The flag at half staff is coming down at sunset to rise then lower to half staff again tomorrow. Fighting amongst ourselves just plays into their hands. Come on world, we're better than that!!!

Terry, MSNBC ran the Bin Ladin interview this afternoon again. You sure you want to see this man?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 289 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (20:04) * 14 lines 
 
a new CNN article which explains how the Taliban are trying to defend
Bin Laden and turn this into a religious war:

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/central/09/14/afghan.denial/

_Prepare for Holy War_

"Now, the third empire of the world wants to impose an attack on us,"
[supreme Afghan leader Mullah Mohammed Omar] said. "As you know better,
it is not because of Osama [bin Laden]. This is the demonization of
Islam."

Well, this idiotic move does nothing more than confirm their role
as a Bin Laden conspirator.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 290 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (20:21) * 22 lines 
 
...

To insistent chants of "U.S.A.! U.S.A.!" from the crowds of workers,
Mr. Bush took hold of a small bullhorn and climbed atop a small pile of
rubble. He then shouted over a chorus of cheers that he wanted the
rescuers to know that all America was deeply grateful for their
efforts.

"This nation stands with the good people of New York City, and New
Jersey and Connecticut, and we mourn the loss of thousands of our
citizens" he said.

To cries of "George, we cant hear you!" the President replied:

"I can hear you! I can hear you!"

"The rest of the world hears you," he added. "And the people who
knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon!"

...

more at: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/14/national/15CND-BUSH.html


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 291 of 783: Wolf  (wolf) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (20:36) * 3 lines 
 
that was wonderful--the chanting and that he went straight in there...but because of the whole security issue where he is concerned, the operation slowed down. did anyone else get that impression?

yes, terry, The Holy War between the west and islam.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 292 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (20:44) * 8 lines 
 
Please, just do not make a martyr of Osama Bin Ladin. I am pleased with how America is responding. Makes me all gritty determination mixed with misty patriotism. I will do without, I will do what is necessary. Just do it right!

Go to website and see the pics in all 4 sections.
Humbling, maddening, speechless...
This should never have happened.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/attack/newyork/6.htm




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 293 of 783: Wolf  (wolf) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (20:45) * 3 lines 
 
that was wonderful--the chanting and that he went straight in there...but because of the whole security issue where he is concerned, the operation slowed down. did anyone else get that impression?

yes, terry, The Holy War between the west and islam.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 294 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (21:19) * 21 lines 
 
No one's making a martyr of Bin Laden. He's dispicable.

They keep saying he's worth $300 million.

The Banks aren't very top notch in Afghanistan. Where's he keeping this money.

We should find out and confiscate all his money.


NBC is now reporting that a couple of guys with box cutters were arrested
off an Amtrak train in San Antonio, the cops thought they were drug dealers
because they had a lot of cash. Now they're thought to be major players in
this terrorist network.

It's been getting a lot of local attention, now it's starting to break
nationally.

US officials are in the Caymans investigating a letter warning about a major
terrorist act against the US involving airlines. It was treated as "merely
speculation" by the government (whose?, the Caymans?). Three men are being held in
the Cayman Islands.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 295 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (22:35) * 6 lines 
 
This Cayman's connection sounds like that's where they might have a bank account. That should be investigated.

the Holy War is what these people want.
We are going back to the Crusades.

There has been a major influx of Muslims all over Europe and in some cases such as Rome, they insist on having a mosque built. I would like to see in which Muslim country one can go live at and insist they build a Catholic church. It would never happen.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 296 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (22:37) * 82 lines 
 
Sebastian Mendler (smendler) Fri Sep 14 '01 (20:26) 83 lines

Subject: groping towards a solution (fwd)


Hi, friends --

Okay, let's see here... tell me if I am incorrect in any of the following
points, or in the reasoning that I am trying to distill from them.

1. Unless I remember wrongly, the Japanese were seen during WWII much the
same way as the Islamic Extremists are being seen now -- driven by
religious fervor, unable to be reasoned with for that reason, not afraid
to die for their cause.

2. This religious fervor was defused after the war by Hirohito shedding
his divine status, and a constitutional monarchy being established in
Japan.

3. The majority of Japanese had little or no problem making the
transition. This probably had something to do with the fact that the most
fervent believers in the old system were, well, dead.

4. The huge occupation force in Japan both respected many
traditional Japanese institutions, and defanged the more troublesome ones.

5. At the same time, the Americans in that force brought back to the US
awareness of many aspects of Japanese and Asian culture that had hitherto
been little-known in the US.

6. They also brought along some wives.

7. The Afghani people are in dire straits indeed -- so dire, some say,
that bombing them would be pointless, there's nothing worth bombing. The
resulting weakness is one reason why the Taliban have not been tossed out
on their turbans.

8. As the saying goes, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

9. The point of the globalist movement -- which one assumes includes
Bush, Powell, et al. -- is that Our Way of Life is the best one, so we
need to get everybody involved in it. At least, that's sorta what they'll
tell you if you ask.

10. The Japanese, rebuilt, became an economic powerhouse, and a key
player in the world economy. It liked the results. The former militarist
viewpoint, while still maintained by a few bitter conservatives, lost its
former stranglehold on the soul of the nation.

11. So perhaps it makes more sense, not to try a purely military
operation, but rather to try more of a *cultural* invasion. Think of the
liberation of Pepperland from the Blue Meanies by the Beatles in _Yellow
Submarine_. Restore color, light, and music to a dark, silent, depressed
land. Wall-to-wall carpeting, not carpet bombings. PT Cruisers, not
cruise missiles. Water, not napalm. Perfume, not tear gas.

12. Such an operation would still have its military aspects, and they
would be huge. All the invading force of aid workers, fashion designers,
educators, doctors, chefs, musicians, jugglers, car dealers, etc. would
need to be protected while they did their jobs. Any attacking forces
would be squelched, stomped, eradicated; but in the absence of attacks,
life would get better and better for the folks that cooperated. This
force would be much more like a police force than an army. (Sometimes,
the best defense is to not be offensive.)

13. At the same time, we would not repeat the Soviets' mistake of trying
to eradicate the fundamentalists. Chase them into the hills, and let them
live their lives the way they want to. In fact, make sure they
do; protect them from *all* outside influences, and protect the outside
from theirs. Do not try to follow them into the mountains.

14. In this scenario, there would be plenty of opportunities for the more
bloodthirsty among us to kick some righteous butt -- the beachheads (so
to speak) will be tough to establish -- but these opportunities would
ultimately be in the service of the healers.

14. At the same time, there are transformations to be effected within the
Western world -- but maybe we should save that for another time...

Am I on a promising track here?

/ /skip


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 297 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (23:05) * 2 lines 
 
Terry, Dear, you were not the one I thought might martyr this sick man and his followers. Unhappily we need give them no more reasons to hate Americans and want to kill them. His followers need little urging to create mayhem, it seems.
*HUGS* (despicable is the nicest thing I have heard him called all week!)


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 298 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (23:07) * 3 lines 
 
Bin Laudin is an ex-Saudi. He just about holds the ruling house ther hostage for letting us land jets in Saudi Arabia during the gulf war.

I am certain Swiss accounts are numerous, too.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 299 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (23:14) * 2 lines 
 
Oh Skip, if only it were that simple. We are discussing a belief system here not a political one. Too many serf in both instances. How long do you think the dress designers would last in a land and religion which hides their women and treats them as chattel (not to mention mutillation, so I won't mention it.)
Our do-gooders would be deader then doornails as soon as they landed. This is an other world. They are not insular, this cell system of radical Islamists! They infiltrate every layer of society and in OUR country of dress desingers, and still loathe us enough to kill us in cold blood - civilians!!! Think some more... I'm listening!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 300 of 783: Beth  (Bethanne) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (23:26) * 5 lines 
 
Well seeing as Bin Laden is as good as he is, at keeping his movements and his intentions hidden, I doubt if hiding $300 million in a series of international bank accounts, would be all that hard for him.

If it is stashed away in Swiss bank accounts, I'm not holding my breath that it can be found and confiscated any time soon. How long did it take for the Swiss banking authorities to finally cooperate, in tracking down loot stolen by the Nazi's....45, 50 years ?




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 301 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (23:37) * 5 lines 
 
The Japanese, rebuilt, became an economic powerhouse, and a key
player in the world economy.


This was the way that the Brigate Rosse terrorists in Italy where defeated as well. And did you know that Baywatch is the number 1 TV show in Iran?
Unfortunately, the world has not acted on this before and now things have gone too far. Their Muslim radical power works on the poor because religion thrives in poor countries. The Jihad has started. I only pray that no atomic bombs will be used from either side.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 302 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Fri, Sep 14, 2001 (23:38) * 2 lines 
 
If it is stashed away in Swiss bank accounts, I'm not holding my breath that it can be found and confiscated any time soon.
It is different now. There no longer is secrecy in Swiss banking.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 303 of 783: Beth  (Bethanne) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (00:26) * 6 lines 
 
ROTFLMAO Moon.....Baywatch is the Number 1 rated program in Iran ? Are you serious ? Yikes, I bet the late Ayatollah Khomeni is just thrilled to bits, not to mention David Hasslehoff....LOL

Thanks for that Moon, I needed a good laugh after this weeks trauma.

By the way, what are #2 and #3 Three's Company and Charlie's Angels ?



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 304 of 783: Annette Mercer  (laughingsky) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (08:28) * 1 lines 
 
I have never experienced such a massive show of patriotism as I have in the last few days. Last week, I admit that I would have passed many American flags with my thoughts absorbed in something else, never really and truly acknowledging the stars and stripes and for what that flag stands for. Somehow, in times past, the word "patriotism" has always rattled a little nerve in the "government-is-out-to-get-us" leftist side of me. Today, though, I am beginning to look at that flag and the word "patriotism" in a different light. Don't get me wrong - I'll still be looking over my shoulder, but, I am feeling a great sense of togetherness with this "patriotism" attitude. It is only saddening to realize what it has taken to get me to this place.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 305 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (08:42) * 23 lines 
 
http://pain.outloud.org/gary/thankyou/

These are photos from around the world of people stopping and praying,
lighting candles, etc. big page but worth the wait time. There's a photo
of Arafat giving blood. And this link is to a Yahoo! "slide show" of 20+
photos of newspaper front pages from around the world after the attack.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?p=news&g=events/ts/091201newspapers&e=1&tmpl=sl&nosum=0&large=0?tamp=1000366704",610,580);

This was an attack on the world trade center and it was an attack
on the world, that building housed so many nationalities and religious
types, I'd like to see a breakdown.

BBC morning news reports that Pakistan is not going to allow an assault
from bases in their country, we'll have to stage from India? Or Dushanbe?

The Russians may be advising us on how to invade Afghanistan, do you see
the irony in this? We're going to need a multi-faceting approach with not
only air strikes but covert activity and ground troops. And at the same
tiem we're going to have to bolster our homeland defense, unlike the Gulf
War where there were only air strikes and no danger at home.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 306 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (09:18) * 36 lines 
 
Pakistan won't allow flights originating from their land but
they'll most likely allow flyovers. The European
community may offer some support but not likely
overwhelming, though I'm comforted by Tony Blair's
statements and actions, they've been courageous.

Russia and India will be our staunchest allies. Need a
million or so soldiers? India has 'em and would probably
put them out on to the battlefield. An alliance with
Russia will minimize China overnight. I just hope I'm
wrong about lukewarm Euro participation.

This is the first war of this century in a millenium that
started out looking like it would belong to China and
Asia. Now that balance may be changing and it will become
the century of global, English speaking democracies lead
by America, India, Canada, UK, Australia, and New
Zealand. This may have the effect of changing the balance
of power for a century to come.

We're lost the symbol of our Western global economy, but
in the processed it's galvanized the global English
speaking democracies in a way we would never have done
spontaneously.

Think about this in your little cave, Osama.

Think about a wealthy, technologically advanced, English
speaking India ruling the region. Think about about a
total global power change that will transform tragedy in
to a brighter future for all mankind.

India and Russia may need this kind of power boost from
the US, they're struggling and they need to be galvanized
and energized in the direction of becoming sane,
technologically advanced democracies.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 307 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (10:04) * 1 lines 
 
"English" is not the tie that binds when it comes to India's involvement.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 308 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (10:16) * 1 lines 
 
Tha Russians did rather poorly in Afghanistan and I doubt that India would would be heavily involved. I would like to see what those tradionally "leftist" European countries do.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 309 of 783: Toyce   (toyce) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (10:17) * 1 lines 
 
As for the lukewarm European leaders' response, didn't they learn from the 1930's that appeasement did not change any outcome?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 310 of 783: Toyce   (toyce) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (10:18) * 1 lines 
 
Karen is right. If India joins this, it will probably be for Hindu revenge against the Muslims.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 311 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (10:51) * 207 lines 
 
FBI Press Response
September 14, 2001

Washington D.C.
FBI National Press Office


The following is a list of the nineteen (19) individuals who have been
identified as hijackers aboard the four airliners that crashed on
September
11, 2001, into the North and South Towers of the World Trade Center in
New
York, the Pentagon, and Stony Creek Township, Pennsylvania. Information
listed for each hijacker differs, but may include date of birth, address
provided, or visa status. This is the extent of the information available
at
this time.

The FBI requests that anyone who may have information about these
individuals-even though they are presumed to be dead- to immediately
contact
an FBI filed office or call the toll-free hotline at 1-866-483-5137.

American Airlines #77
Boeing 757
8:10 am departed Washington Dulles for Los Angeles
9:39 am crashed into the Pentagon



1) Khalid Al-Midhar - Possible residence (s) : San Diego, California and
New
York, New York; Visa Status: B-1 Visa, but B-2 Visa had expired.

2) Majed Moqed - No information available.

3) Nawaq Alhamzi - Possible residence (s) : Fort Lee, New Jersey and
Wayne,
New Jersey and San Diego, California.

4) Salem Alhamzi - Possible residence (s) : Fort Lee, New Jersey, and
Wayne,
New Jersey.

5) Hani Hanjour - Possible residence (s) : Phoenix, Arizona and San
Diego,
California. Believed to be a pilot.


American Airlines #11
Boeing 767
7:45 am departed Boston for Los Angeles
8:45 am crashed into North Tower of the World Trade Center



1) Satam Al Suqami - Date of birth used: June 28, 1976; Last known
address:
United Arab Emirates.

2) Waleed M. Alshehri - Dates of birth used: September 13, 1974/January
1,
1976/ March 3, 1976/ July 8, 1977/ December 20, 1978/ May 11, 1979/
November
5, 1979; Possible residence (s) : Hollywood, Florida/ Orlando, Florida/
Daytona Beach, Florida; Believed to be a pilot.

3) Wail Alshehri - Date of birth used: July 31, 1973; Possible residence
(s)

4) Mohamed Atta - Date of birth used: September 1, 1968; Possible
residence
(s) : Hollywood, Florida/ Coral Springs, Florida/ Hamburg,
Germany; Believed
to be a pilot.

5) Abdulaziz Alomari - Date of birth used: December 24, 1972 and May 28,
1979; Possible residence: Hollywood, Florida; Believed to be a pilot.


United Airlines #175
Boeing 767
7:58 am departed Boston for Los Angeles
9:05 am crashed into South Tower of the World Trade Center



1) Marwan Al-Shehhi - Date of birth used: May 9, 1978; Possible
residence:
Hollywood, Florida; Visa Status: B-2 Visa; Believed to be a pilot.

2) Fayez Ahmed - Possible residence: Delray Beach, Florida.

3) Ahmed Alghamdi - Possible residence: Delray Beach, Florida.

4) Hamza Alghamdi - Possible residence: Delray Beach, Florida.

5) Mohald Alshehri - Possible residence: Delray Beach, Florida.


United Airlines #93
Boeing 757
8:01 am departed Newark, New Jersey, for San Francisco
10:10 am crashed in Stony Creek Township, Pennsylvania



1) Saeed Alghamdi - Possible residence: Delray Beach, Florida.

2) Ahmed Alhaznawi - Date of birth used: October 11, 1980; Possible
residence: Delray Beach, Florida.

3) Ahmed Alnami - Possible residence: Delray Beach, Florida.

4) Ziad Jarrahi - Believed to be a pilot.


Topic 14 [attack]: Events of Sept 11, 2001
#54 of 65: Bruce Sterling (bruces) Fri Sep 14 '01 (21:26) 85 lines


*Every Time I Hear "A New Era for Humanity" Announced,
I Really Have to Wonder If It Can Last Even Six Months *8-/

Subject: Yann Moix: A New Era for Humanity
Date: Friday, September 14, 2001 11:52 AM
From: Patrice Riemens
Reply-To: Patrice Riemens
To:

A New Era for Humanity

by Yann Moix
Liberation (Paris), September 14, 2001
original in French at
http://www.liberation.com/ny2001/actu/20010914venze.html


Bingo, folks! The World will never go at war again, and yet it will be
at war always, period. War and non-war, there shall be no difference any
more. From the 11th of September 2001, all will be war, even peace.
Peace shall no longer be the opposite of war, but its context, its
natural environment, its ecosystem, its scene, its background, its
screen-saver. War and peace shall no longer be each others contraries
(that was in the good old manichean East vs West times), but they shall
be imbricated the one in the other, like the two connected faces of the
same reality. Peace shall be a kind of specific sub-case of war. War
shall henceforth be everywhere and nowhere. War shall be waged in the
dustbins of the Paris railtermini, war shall be waged above our heads in
the air of the metropolises. War shall be permanent. War shall be open
for business 24/24, 7/7 , just like CNN. There shall be intermissions,
but no reprieve. It shall be a war blind, yet precise, fuzzy, yet
targeted. Because never before has the distortion been so stark between
fuziness of the causes and the acuurateness of the strikes.

The First HyperWorldWar has started. It is a war where all pretenses
will fly, and where acts will be used as statements of purpose
afterwards. Let's call this a hyperwar: a world where the ordinary,
natural context of societies is no longer peace, but war. A hyperwar is
not a classic world war with opposite fighting sides. It is a
'non-Euclydian', non-catalogised war, without rules and principles
others than its own logic. Hyperwar cannot be localised in space. Nor in
time. It is a kind of magnum opus of terrorism,its _best of_ or rather
its _worst of_: plane hijacks, crashes, bombs, kamikaze operations.

In fact it was the 20th century as a whole that was fast-forwarded in
just a couple of minutes on the 11th of September, 2001. And that will
be the birth certificate of the 21st Century, like (the 31st of July)
1914 was it for the 20th. But it are no longer states which are waging
war, but wars that are making states. But then, unheard of sort of
states: non-nation-states, states without teritorry, without citizens or
borders, without (elected) governements, nay, these are virtual states,
scattered war-states, fuzzy, networked octopus-states, community-states
whose only borders are ideological. These states, just like virusses,
evolve, adjust, mutate, invent and reinvent themselves everyday.
Sometimes, their size is reduced to that of a lone individual who is an
ideology, an army, a clear and present danger all unto himself. And a
walking bomb. After the era of the statesmen comes the era of the
state-men. The political state has become undistinguishable from the
biological state.

Over these past days, we have been bombarded with the metaphor of Pearl
Harbour: nothing could be further from the truth. Pearl Harbour was an
episode within a war. The 11th of september was the definition of an
other type of war, the starting point for a new era in human history.
The human element is now being affected all over the planet, since
hyperwars feeds itself on the psychoses it creates by the permanent
menace it exerts on all. Psychosis has become the continuation of war by
other means. It gnaws at the individual, it eats up her/his mind, it
shatters her/his rational structure. It is a war on the 'may be/ may be
not' mode, whereby the horror is mainly a potential one. And thus, it is
a war that may have a beginning, but no end. Hyperwar is built for the
long run. It thrives in totality, that of the universe and of eternity.


(Halelujah! - tr -)
(Q&D translation by yours truly)
Reposted without permission whatsoever

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 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 312 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (10:52) * 5 lines 
 
The Tamil Tigers in India have caused thousands of deaths because of terrorist attacks.

As you see this is truly a Holy War.

Those "leftist" European Countries have lost their religion and have become homocentric. There is -0 population growth because young couples even if they bother to get married are not interested in having children. They prefer the material to the spiritual. It will be interesting to see what kind of allegiance those countries give the US.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 313 of 783: Toyce Southern  (toyce) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (10:57) * 1 lines 
 
Just heard Netenyahu (sp?) on Fox. He made a good point. The reporter tried to make a comparison between the communists and the terriorists with regard to nuclear weapons. He said that was incorrect. He said the communists put their lives above their ideology. These people put their ideology above their lives.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 314 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (11:13) * 84 lines 
 
A chronology of strikes by Laden on US interests

NEERAJ SAXENA
TIMES OF INDIA NEWS NETWORK

NEW DELHI: A glance at the chronology of terrorist attacks made on the US in
the past one decade would indicate that the destiny of the US and its one-
time bete noire Osama bin Laden have almost become inextricable.

If the US is to be believed, almost all the attacks have been carried out or
aided by bin Laden. However, the US has been harsh with its usual suspect
just once. The missile attacks on his safe haven in Afghanistan and Sudanese
factory was the only time when the US displayed its military might in
retaliation.

In 1996, former President Bill Clinton had even signed a secret order that
authorised the CIA to use any and all means to destroy Laden's network, but
the world's most powerful state has not been able to ensure this.

In August, 1996, a secret grand jury investigation began against bin Laden
in New York. He was quick to sign and issue a declaration of jihad on August
23 against the US and UAE, outlining his organisation's goals.

CHRONOLOGY OF EVENTS

December 29, 1992: A bomb exploded in a hotel in Aden, Yemen, where the US
troops had been staying while en route to a humanitarian mission in Somalia
against guerilla leader Muhammed Aidid. The blast killed two Austrian
tourists as the US soldiers had already left.

RESPONSE: Two Yemeni Muslim militants, trained in Afghanistan and injured in
the blast, arrested later. US intelligence agencies said this was the first
terrorist attack involving bin Laden.

February 26, 1993: A car bomb went off in the basement parking of the now
fallen World Trade Centre, killing six people and injuring over 1,000.

RESPONSE: Six accused, including the mastermind and confidante of Laden --
Ramzi Yousef -- sentenced to 240 years in prison for the bombing, for
plotting to destroy WTC, the UN headquarters and to plant bombs on airliners
flying out of the east coast. Ramzi was extradited from Pakistan and had
close links with Laden according to the US.

October 3, 1993: Eighteen US troops killed in a guerilla attack in
Mogadishu, Somalia. American law enforcement, intelligence and national
security officials are divided as to whether, as a Federal indictment
charges, bin Laden and his associates trained and armed Somalia warlord
Aidid's men.

RESPONSE: Over 300 rebels claimed to have been killed by the US Rangers.

April 19, 1995: A US government establishment in Oklahoma city bombed by an
explosives laden truck parked in the car park of Alfred P Murrah building,
killing 168 people, and wounding over 500.

RESPONSE: Initially, the US suspected Osama bin Laden to be behind the
bombing, but a 27-year-old misguided youth Timothy McVeigh was captured
later, convicted and later executed. A key witness Terry Nichols sentenced
for life.

November 13, 1995: Five Americans and two Indians killed in the truck
bombing of a US-operated Saudi National Guard training center in Riyadh.
RESPONSE: The US accuses bin Laden. He denies involvement, but praises the
attack.

June 25, 1996: A large truck bomb devastates the US military residence in
Dhahran called Khobar Towers, killing 19 servicemen.
RESPONSE: The US military initially Laden had a hand in the attack, but now
believes that a Saudi Shiite group was responsible. But US investigators
still believe Bin Laden was somehow involved.

August 7, 1998: US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania bombed by a suicide
bomber, killing over 230 people and leaving over 4,500 injured.
RESPONSE: US retaliates swiftly on August 20 by firing 70-80 `Tomahawk'
Cruise missiles at alleged terrorist training camps in Khost, Afghanistan
and the Al-Shifa pharmaceutical plant in Khartoum, Sudan saying it was a
chemical weapons factory. Several of Osama Bin Laden's alleged co-
conspirators put behind bars in the US.

October 12, 2000: A small dinghy laden with explosives rammed into US
warship USS Cole in Aden Harbour, Yemen, killing 17 US sailors and injuring
39 others.
RESPONSE: Besides blaming Laden, the US has not done much by the way of a
retaliation so far.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 315 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (11:19) * 5 lines 
 
335 newspaper front pages -- 189 from the
day after the attack and 146 extra editions published on the day of the
hijackings.

http://www.poynter.org/index.cfm


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 316 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (12:06) * 20 lines 
 
On the topic of bin Laden's money, Forbes has some info:

http://www.forbes.com/2001/09/14/0914ladenmoney.html

Highlights:

Although bin Laden's been kicked out of Saudi Arabia and his
citizenship revoked, much of his money is 'tied up in businesses' in
Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. He also has access to
'charitable foundations,' not named, that are 'unregulated and
untaxed.'

Following a description of the abject poverty of Afghanistan, it talks
about how bin Laden and other expatriate Saudis live there and pay 'a
lot of rent.' You can afford a private army for $35,000 a month as you
don't have to pay people much.

Money is transferred from country to country via an informal network
called "Hundi," basically just individuals transferring money among
themselves. Very difficult to track.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 317 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (14:07) * 4 lines 
 
We could probably solve the airline hijack issue with the installation of an "auto lander" which could over ride the pilots and land the plane if it deviated off course and the pilots did not respond with a password or other test. The airline doors need to be strengthened and pilots shouldn't be able to open them during flight, and anyone on the passenger side of the door or doors (two or three makes more sense) would absolutely be unable to penetrate them. The problem is solvable.

But there are so many other unsolved procedures we need to put in place for so many as yet undreamed of scenarios.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 318 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (14:21) * 41 lines 
 
From http://www.janes.com,
a global security website, has issued a list of the places that are known to
have involvement with Al-Qaeda, bin Laden's organization

Algeria
Egypt,
Morocco
Turkey
Jordan
Tajikistan
Uzbekistan
Syria
Xinjiang in China
Pakistan
Bangladesh
Malaysia
Myanmar
Indonesia
Mindanao in the Philippines
Lebanon
Iraq
Saudi Arabia
Kuwait
Bahrain
Yemen,
Libya
Tunisia
Bosnia
Kosovo
Chechnya
Dagestan
Kashmir
Sudan,
Somalia
Kenya
Tanzania
Azerbaijan
Eritrea
Uganda
Ethiopia
The West Bank and Gaza.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 319 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (15:32) * 1 lines 
 
Correct me if I am under a misconception, but do we not worship the same GOD ultimately? How can they call it a Holy War and worship God? I have a copy of the Q'ran and it says nothing of the kind they are espousing. It is an excuse for greed and warped minds in which to find reason for their vengeance.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 320 of 783: Wolf  (wolf) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (16:16) * 10 lines 
 
it is just like anything else, cultish behavior brainwashing persons wishing to belong to anything.

islam is a peaceful religion. i was told that the women wear the abayaah to protect themselves from being leered at by men. when they are home, the abayaah is removed. much like the latino community, arabians are family oriented and often house extended families. at no time did i feel like i was a piece of garbage while in Kuwait. the stares that i received were because i am different from what they are used to seeing. men and women of all walks live and work there. these people are just like us, have the same concerns as we do. i witnessed one father rewarding his child for a job well done at school.

so please, do not assume that the arabian community is strange and should be feared. there are radicals in all communities, look at the guy in montana, he was american! look at the KKK, hello, people!

sadly, there are scams out there to get your money all in the name of this tragedy. do not give to these telemarketers because there is no campaign to gain donations this way.

something interesting: the taliban first mumbled that this was terrible, then pleaded that we do not bomb this poor country, then threatening surrounding neighbors that if they support the U.S., they will be attacked by holy warriors.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 321 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (18:48) * 7 lines 
 
but do we not worship the same GOD ultimately?
You must go back to the Crusades, Marcia to get your answer.

i was told that the women wear the abayaah to protect themselves from being leered at by men.
Women are barely seen in the streets. They are second class citizens if at all.

A western woman respectfully travelling in those countries (as I have found myslf on occassion), better not get the urge to go to the bathroom outside their hotel.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 322 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (18:53) * 41 lines 
 
The assassination of Massoud was no coincidence. It was most likely a signature attack by Bin Laden to eliminate Afghanistan's greatest anti-Taliban fighter. He was killed by explosives hidden in a belt or camera the day before the WTC attack.


http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/15/international/asia/15MASS.html
http://frontierpost.com.pk/main.asp?id=8&date1=9/15/2001

I'm unclear if Pakistan will or will not allow us to use their country as a staging area. If someone hears about this will they post it here?




GERMAN OFFICIALS have asked the FBI and the
Securities and Exchange Commission to look into whether bin
Laden’s associates may have “sold short” stock in a Munich,
Germany, company that holds secondary insurance on the
World Trade Center.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/629380.asp



The stock market will open at 9:30 pm EST on Monday.

Biggest losers: airline stocks
Biggest winners: military, cellular, security, tech stocks

Other big losers: insurance stocks, hotels
Other winners: teleconferencing systems, construction companies,
fractional aircraft.




Ramzi Yusef, architect of first World Trade Center bombing, carried plans
for airliner suicide crashes:

http://www.worldtribune.com/wta/Archive-2001/me_terrorism_09_13.html






 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 323 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (18:54) * 1 lines 
 
I slipped with Moon.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 324 of 783: Wolf  (wolf) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (20:17) * 11 lines 
 
in case there is any confusion, i was told by a kuwaiti man why the women wear an abaayah. yes, there are countries in which arabian women are treated as third-class citizens. but, it was witnessed by me, women were treated with respect, no walking 6-ft behind the man or anything. they drove, ran businesses, walked with their similarily clad men, wearing gold jewelry, etc. i can only relay what i saw in kuwait. these men wait until they are well into their 30's before marrying in order to prove that they are worthy of a wife, to care for her financially and whatever children they have.

one arabian man said it clearly, the Koran (sp?) condemns behavior such as this. the muslim community needs to stand up to bin laden and use the word to show him as being wrong. several islamic people were interviewed and again reiterated that the Koran doesn't suggest anything of this nature. in fact, the Koran refers to all religions, christianity and judaism, not as being infidels, but as those included in the book, and infidels being those who do not believe at all (athiests).

bin laden may see this as a holy war, but, it is not, because the religion he proclaims to be an interpretor of, would not allow this. again, it's based on perception.

another thing i find interesting is that all the time, we are referred to as the devil, evil, etc. isn't that what we're doing? the deed was evil but we cannot condemn a whole peoples because of that. yes, i believe the guilty should and will pay.

and so, i pray that the countries vowing support and our country do not do anything irrationally. that we think through whatever our actions may be. yes, we are angry, that is a step in grief, but let us take our time and move through this. anyway, who am i to say anything.....

i think this discussion is healthy. *HUGS* to all!!!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 325 of 783: Wolf  (wolf) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (20:22) * 1 lines 
 
oh yeah, this may be the least of their worries right now, but....has anyone started piling up the mass of paper that flew out of the WTC? i wonder if any of the accounts and such could be put back together with what was left of that? and, how come the paper didn't incinerate?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 326 of 783: Beth  (Bethanne) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (21:34) * 7 lines 
 
Totally changing the subject for a sec.....I saw on CNN yesterday that the major US airlines lost $300 million per day, when they were grounded for 3 days. I am puzzled by this. I can understand why they may lose money in future, from a drop off in bookings.

But surely every person who booked a flight from Sep 11-13, would have paid for it in advance. Who here of us, goes some where with out having booked and paid for it weeks, if not months in advance ? So wouldn't the airlines have the money from all those grounded flights, already in the bank ?

I can see where they would lose money from the refunds they gave some people. But news reports showed most people waiting the delay out and not getting refunds. So where did this $300 million loss come from ?

Sorry if I sound mercenary and trivial. I am the daughter of an airline man, so I suppose curiosity about them, is in my blood.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 327 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (22:11) * 1 lines 
 
Hugs to both Wolfie and Moon. You are both right. I just talked to a close friend who is Lebanese Muslim. She says depending on your sect, the rules vary as does status in the community make for variations. You also don't show the soles of your feet and you do not eat with your right hand....they do not shake hands - you wipe off human waste with that hand... and on and on. We need no acrimony....we are dealing with people who do not even understand each other!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 328 of 783: LouiseJ  (LouiseJ) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (22:13) * 2 lines 
 
The losses were not from this week's flights. The airlines have already received most of the money for this week's tickets. But they also sell tickets on a daily basis for next week, next month, next year, etc. Apparently they would have sold $300M worth of these tickets per day. Because of the crisis, they could not, because they did not know when, or if, they would be able to fly again. Even now that flights have resumed, they apparently anticipate a substantial reduction in the number of tickets sold, due to fear of flying, longer delays at airports due to security, etc. From now on, it's going to be an uphill battle to sell tickets to people who don't "need" to fly. This is why they expect to lose a lot of money. They still have the same number of planes to pay for, airport lease facilities to pay for, etc. So--the same fixed expenditures going out with much less in ticket sales coming in. The only "flexible" spending they have in the short run is employees, so they have to lay people off. And
they were already hurting big time from the increase in fuel prices. Not many glimmers of hope for them.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 329 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (22:26) * 5 lines 
 
Kuwait is not Afghanistan. Kuwait does not have a fundamentalist theocracy. Afghani Muslims are not Arabs. Perhaps you're not aware of what the Taliban has done to women since taking over there.

I believe I've heard that 60% of the airlines costs are fixed (paid out regardless of whether they fly or not). As you must be aware, the airlines don't make any money on those tickets to poor idiots like us, who get discounted fares. The full-fare tickets for business flyers subsidize the rest of us.

*HUGS* to all!!!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 330 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (22:32) * 3 lines 
 
Thanks Karen and yes, we are not dealing with an easy problem. I had one guy IM me today he was so angry he just tore up a remote highway at 100 mph (yeah, in the Cobra) We need to bond not feud and if we do not hug one another, we are doomed. "Group Hug" sounds so foolish but I think it is warranted.

*HUGS TO ALL*, as Karen put it so well!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 331 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (23:19) * 3 lines 
 
For those of you who hear of phophesies, please look at this page before leaping onto the pyre:

http://www.snopes2.com/inboxer/hoaxes/predict.htm


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 332 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (23:40) * 20 lines 
 
The full plan:
1. Destroy the World's Financial hub (succeeded beyond wildest dreams of terrorists)
2. Take out the military center of the US (very partial success)
3. Take out the President or Congress (failed)

Good thing they only partially succeeded, if they had gone 3 for 3 we'd be in very, very serious trouble right now.

This is not World War III, not yet anyway. This is about a band of criminals who are holding a decimated country in fear and trembling.

The link for the Canada piece that Alice, my sister, sent me is

http://www.rcc.ryerson.ca/schools/rta/ccf/personal/hof/sincla_g.html

Gordon Sinclair wrote it, he died in 1984, the piece was written in '73 and was inspired by the criticism of America during the Vietnam era.

I'll send this to my sister so she understands the context.

It's in very wide circulation.

From what I've read, I think the best approach would be to work cooperatively with the Afghan resistance and with India/Pakistan against the Taliban, one which allow a democratic state to emerge comprised of native Afghans.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 333 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (23:40) * 1 lines 
 
slippage again.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 334 of 783: Beth  (Bethanne) * Sat, Sep 15, 2001 (23:54) * 9 lines 
 
Gee thanks CNN, the whereabouts of Britany Spears is foremost in my thoughts these days.

CNN has a news ticker across the bottom of their screen and it is all really serious stuff...Bush speech extracts, Talaban declarations, death toll estimates, etc etc

Then all of a sudden this appears...." Pop Princess Britany Spears is stranded in Australia, due to the FAA ban on all international flights. She has cancelled all her European engagements at this time. "

I mean hello CNN.....who gives a rats a$$ ?

By the way, what is this about a ban on incoming international flights ? It's the first I have heard of it ? Is it true, or did I read the ticker thingy wrong ? I guess I was just distracted by the plight of poor lil' Britany....LOL


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 335 of 783: Beth  (Bethanne) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (00:05) * 9 lines 
 
1. Destroy world's financial hub ( suceeded beyond wildest dreams )

Did they really ? A lot of companies have ( in a purely logistical sense ) been put to a lot of expense and inconvenience. But has the world's financial hub really been destroyed ? Several buildings have gone down, but the infrastructure remains intact, bruised and bloody to be sure, but still intact.

New York is one huge financial colossus, it is a many headed beast, with many, many tentacles. As devestating as the loss of the WTC is ( in human and monetary terms ). It is just one of these heads, the main body of the beast remains alive.

( Sorry, didn't mean to make that sound like something from a horror flick. )

As an example, the HQ of American Express were in Tower #1. They occupied 1 million sq ft of office space on many floors. However, they ( bless 'em ) took their butts across the river to temporary quarters in Jersey City. They now expect to be up and running ( at granted, very limited capacity, for now ) by Monday.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 336 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (00:11) * 1 lines 
 
It would have been more appropriate to say the world's financial *symbol* has been erased, we will remain strong as an economy. The 1-2-3 knockout would have been devastating had it succeeded, knocking out the White House would have pretty demoralizing on top of the World Trade. I'm glad those heroic passengers took action.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 337 of 783: Beth  (Bethanne) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (00:27) * 3 lines 
 
Yup Terry, spot on....devestating doesn't even begin to describe what could have happened if they went 3 for 3

By the way, thanks so much for starting up this topic. It has been a much appreciated source of information, fellowship and goodwill since the horrors of Tuesday morning.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 338 of 783: Rob Glennie  (AotearoaKiwi) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (04:29) * 11 lines 
 
Hi all

Marcia, a question regarding a couple well known pieces of classical music?

First of, does the military drum beat of Mars: Bringer of War mean anything significant at the moment??

Second "I vow to thee my country" is the chorus associated with Jupiter: Bringer of jollity. Patriotism is presumably alive and kicking at the moment in the United States and soldiers, sailors and airmen are thinking, " I vow to thee my country"?? Yes??

Finally, I listened to Sprach Zarathustra on Friday night, and wondered if the ominous opening bars mean anything with regards to the few terrifying seconds before the wayward jets that were aimed at the WTC, struck. Do you wonder??

Rob


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 339 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (06:05) * 108 lines 
 
Gerard Van der Leun (boswell) Sat Sep 15 '01 (23:18) 107 lines


Patrick writess:
> Boswell, from the bottom of my heart, please, log off and go and do
something positive. Go and hug your daughter. Go and enroll in an anti-
terrorism class. Go and make a speech on the corner. Go and pray.<

And I thank you for that advice.

Actually, today, I did log off in the morning.
Then I did something positive by attending the funeral of
Father Michael Judge, the Chaplin of the New York Fire
Department (I have made a pact with myself to attend
as many of the 300 funerals of the NYFD members as I
physically can).

Father Judge, who had decades of service in the NYFD,
was as you may know, killed in the collapse of the towers
as he was giving the last rites to citizens killed in
the attack as other firemen were going UP THE STAIRS.

If anyone here thinks that I have terrible convictions
about this and is shocked or dismayed at my hate and
rage, they might spend some time in front of one of
the many churches of New York in the coming weeks
and look into the eyes of the police and firemen
and everyday workers from Queens, the Bronx, Brooklyn
or the other bouroughs and tell me then how much
mercy they can see there. These are the men who
are dealing with this now, and by and large these
will be the type of men who will be fighting this
war abroad and here on our land -- and there *will*
be more of this here in our land -- in this city
and in your cities -- and you or someone you know
will be maimed or die from it. So start to understand
what is happening now and what is going to happen
when the truck with the explosives in it drives
onto the Golden Gate Bridge and the driver of that
truck tells the other truck at the foot of
Mission that he's all set to light it up.

Then you will be standing in front of a church
(if you are lucky, as I was), and you will find
yourself weeping as I did (and you will not be
alone in this), and then you will understand what
you do not understand now. And for this I weep
for you.

So the pipes played and this great and good man
was carried away.

And then, yes, I did go into the church and although
I am not a religious man, I did pray.

Then I walked to 14th street where my daughter works
and I saw her and I did hug her.

I shopped for some vegetables at the Green Market
and walked into the crazy quilt memorials and peace
and chanting maze that Union Square has become ..
a kind of bizarre Princess Di Death Monument, overwhelmed
in it's peace and love adornments with page after
page and image after image of what we are now
politely calling "the missing" -- as in 'most of these
real people from many nations are now atomized.

Then I came home to care for my dear and sick friend.

Then, as she slept, I logged on here and saw what one
always sees -- the sleepers and the dreamers and the
few trying to make sense of things, and those who say
"if only we had done this,if only we had done that"...

Those who still cannot grasp that everything is, in
the words of the poet, "changed utterly. A terrible
beauty is born."

But none of this or anything else I may place here
is really for anyone other than myself. This is my
journal put out in the raw as I think it. I really
don't have any other purpose than that. People can
make of it it what they will.

So, Patrick, that's what my day was like. Strangely
it filled most of your requirements without even
knowing what they would be.

I even made a speech of sorts on the street.

When the hearse bearing the body of Father Judge
was passing down the street behind the flag and
through two lines of pipers playing, I noticed
that a goodly number of people lining the streets
were just watching or, even more odious, taking
photographs. I've never spoken out on the streets
since Berkeley in the 60s, but quite to my surprise
I found myself saying, I think, "Citizens. A great
man is passing. We do not take pictures. We salute
him."

And placing my right hand over my heart in a gesture
I haven't used in well over 40 years, I did so.
Some others did as well. Strange that we have
forgotten how do do this, isn't it?

Perhaps we should start to remember this and some
other things as well.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 340 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (08:14) * 26 lines 
 
The American Red Cross in New York is calling for help from the IT
community.

"The New York American Red Cross is in dire need of technology equipment and
services," Joe Leo, assistant director of the American Red Cross in New
York, told NewsBytes. "The field workers and rescue sites have little, if
any, means of communication, and the central office is processing way too
much on completely paper systems. Any help in acquiring these resources
would be greatly appreciated," he said.

Leo highlighted an immediate need for Citrix server engineers and Microsoft-
certified consultants to help with setting up systems that will aid the
rescue process. Laptops, wireless networking cards, printers, CD burners and
other equipment are also required. "Essentially, anything you can give us,
we can use," Leo said.

Other IT requirements include the need to develop a single system for
tracking missing people. A database is in the process of being complied
containing pictures, dental records and descriptions of the missing.

...

Joe Leo at the American Red Cross can be phoned at (212) 875-2409 or e-
mailed at jleo@arcgny.org. Donations of equipment can be sent to his office:
150 Amsterdam Avenue, New York, NY 10023. Mr Leo asked that only those who
want to volunteer contact him directly.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 341 of 783: Wolf  (wolf) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (09:28) * 1 lines 
 
you're correct, Karen, Kuwait is not Afghanistan, of that I am well aware. I am also aware that not all Muslim sects observe the same ideals or practices. My intention was not to make a broad statement about the treatment of Islamic women and I'm sorry if some of you read it that way. Generalizations are being made, stereotypes being set or reaffirmed. My point was that I personally witnessed a part of Islam that I was not aware of before my visit to Kuwait. Fine, Saudi, Afghanistan, Turkey, etc., have harsher views, that point is well known and well taken. My point was that an idea I had about this religion was changed.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 342 of 783: Wolf  (wolf) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (09:28) * 1 lines 
 
marcia, thank you for that website about predicition hoaxes!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 343 of 783: Annette Mercer  (laughingsky) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (11:19) * 2 lines 
 
I second that thanks to Marcia!



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 344 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (12:08) * 11 lines 
 
From an account of Congressional testimony given in 1998:
Since taking power, the Taliban militia group, which now controls much of Afghanistan, has placed Afghan women under virtual house arrest. The Taliban has decreed that women and girls can no longer attend school; women are banned from employment; women are not allowed to leave their homes unless accompanied by a husband, father, brother, or son; women who do leave their homes have to be covered from head to toe in a "burqa," with only a mesh opening to see and breath through; the windows of homes with women occupants are required to be painted opaque so the women inside cannot be seen; women are prohibited from being treated by male doctors; and women are banned from wearing white socks and shoes that make noise as they walk.

"Women are being beaten, shot at, and even killed for violating these draconian decrees -- for merely trying to go to work, leaving their homes alone, or violating the Taliban's extreme dress orders," stated Leno. Leno also shared a report from journalist Jan Goodwin that girls at the state orphanage in Kabul have not been allowed to leave the building to go outside since September of 1996 -- although the boys go outside every day to attend school and to play.

"The abuses of women and girls in Afghanistan have been justified in the name of religion and culture. However, the Taliban's decrees are foreign to the religion, the culture, and the people of Afghanistan," said Leno, who related that before the Taliban took control schools were co-educational, 70% of teachers were women, 40% of doctors were women, and Afghan women did not cover themselves with the burqa.
For additional information the gender apartheid going on in Afghanistan:

http://www.feminist.org/news/pr/pr030298.html

http://www.cnn.com/2000/ASIANOW/central/07/13/afghan.women/

http://www.rawa.org/


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 345 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (12:37) * 5 lines 
 
It's incredible that you would have to post this information, Karen. I have known this for years and I thought it was common knowledge. :-(

Please read this letter that was posted by someone who was on the first flight out of Logan Airport. You will understand the new security procedures.

http://www.pemberley.com/bin/ramble/ramble.cgi?read=37767


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 346 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (12:45) * 1 lines 
 
I posted it for those who were unaware of the situation and did not realize what the Taliban has been doing.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 347 of 783: Liz K  (ekelley) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (15:24) * 1 lines 
 
Thank you for posting that Karen. I knew that the women were forced to completely cover themselves, but I had no idea it was so horrible. I hope we can help them in some way through all of what is to come.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 348 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (15:34) * 1 lines 
 
I heard from one of the talking heads on Sunday monring tv that Afghanistan is 70% women, can someone confirm that?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 349 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (16:11) * 25 lines 
 
MSNBC and CNN report that Pakistan has delivered an ultimatum to the
Taliban: turn over Bin Laden within 72 hours or face military attack from
Pakistan.

From Pakistan.

We've scared the hell out of them.

Another article:

http://www.charleston.net/pub/news/commentary/dillar0913.htm

However, the '90s cutbacks in intelligence - in a time of growing
complexity in the world - was a critical misstep that laid the
groundwork for the failure to foresee the events of Sept. 11, 2001.
These cuts have prevented our intelligence agencies from acting on
complete information. Terrorist organizations, as well as those groups
that would proliferate weapons of mass destruction, can only be
effectively countered with a robust and well-funded human intelligence
capability . . .

I heard on MSNBC that El Al has been sealing off the cockpits of their
planes for the last 25 years.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 350 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (16:26) * 33 lines 
 
A whole lot of intelligence information on Afghanistan comes from the CIA
Factbook, I've compiled in this web location:

http://www.spring.net/afghan

We may be developing a special section of the Spring to deal with the
coming world conflict and we may even add a conference on this or expand
more topics in the news conference.

Here is a proposed topic list:

1 coping with the crisis
2 the attack
3 what can we do?
4 where were you when you heard?
5 racism
6 information on the net
7 hindsight
8 what will change?
9 world response
10 local impact where you are
11 economic impact
12 President Bush
13 travel in the post attack world
14 Osama Bin Laden
15 What will become of Civil Liberty?
16 media coverage
17 thinking like the enemy, what next?

We can either add these to news, all or some of them, or we can create a
new conference called? attack? terror? I think we already have a
conference called InternationalConflict or something like that, it never
got used much.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 351 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (16:28) * 19 lines 
 
SJ Mercury news has some numbers on the international casualty toll at
WTC...

100 Britons confirmed dead, final toll expected to be higher
250 Indians feared killed, injured and missing
a dozen Mexican nationals, of over 100 citizens working at WTC
100 Russians missing
50 Bangladeshi confirmed dead, more missing
8 Australians confirmed dead, 80 others missing
100 Japanese unaccounted for

other nationals believed lost include Canadians, S. Koreans,
Zimbabweans, Taiwanese, Italians, colombians and Filipinos, but no
numbers reported.

The number that worries me are the 250 Indian nationals, given
Pakistan's ties to the Taliban, not to mention the Indian/Pakistani
conflicts over, say, Kashmir, or their nuclear arms race.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 352 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (16:29) * 52 lines 
 
Here are the "official" figures:

International casualties in the "attack on america"
(preliminary official figures):

Argentina: 2 missing
Australia: 9 confirmed dead, 85 missing
Bangladesh: 50 confirmed, more missing
Belgium: 60 missing
Brazil: 5 missing
Canada: 2 confirmed, 100 missing (est)
Chile: 1 missing
China: 4 confirmed, 30 missing
Colombia: 6 confirmed, 116 missing
Denmark: 15 missing
Dominican Republic: 3 missing
Egypt: 1 confirmed, 3 missing
El Salvador: 1 confirmed, 18 missing
Finland: 41 missing
France: 81 missing
Germany: 4 confirmed, 700 missing
Great Britain: 100 confirmed, 400 missing (est)
India: 250 missing
Indonesia: 1 confirmed, 1 missing
Ireland: 4 confirmed
Israel: 1 confirmed, 150 missing
Italy: 8 missing
Japan: 2 confirmed, 100 missing
Lebanon: 1 confirmed, 2 missing
Malaysia: 7 missing
Mexico: 150-500 missing (est)
Norway: 15 missing
Pakistan: 3 confirmed, more missing
Paraguay: 2 missing
Peru: 5 missing
Philippines: 7 missing
Portugal: 3 confirmed, 20 missing
Puerto Rico: 1 missing
South Africa: 1 confirmed, 2 missing
South Korea: 1 confirmed, 27 missing
Spain: 9 missing
Sweden: 1 missing
Switzerland: 4 confirmed, 10 missing
Taiwan: 9 missing
Zimbabwe: 6 missing

(data collected from newspapers and government websites. )

http://hem.passagen.se/eff/2001_09_01_bot-archive.htm

That's nearly 3,000 people from 40 nations confirmed dead or unaccounted
for.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 353 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (16:35) * 4 lines 
 
An invaluable resource:

http://www.sabawoon.com/afghanpedia/Afghanistan.shtm



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 354 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (17:08) * 3 lines 
 
And here's a list of many web sites about Afghanistan:

http://www.abyznewslinks.com/afgha.htm


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 355 of 783: Annette Mercer  (laughingsky) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (17:22) * 3 lines 
 
Open letter from Saddam Hussein to the American peoples and the western peoples and their governments.

http://www.uruklink.net/iraqnews/enews8.htm


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 356 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (18:46) * 12 lines 
 
As this excerpt from a New Yorker article from a while back shows, we have to be careful in how we conduct air strikes against terrorist camps in Afghanistan and other places. These camps are undoubtedly dispersing physically and forming virtually in cyberspace as we speak.

"http://www.newyorker.com/PRINTABLE/?FROM_THE_ARCHIVE/010917fr_archive07

The American war against bin Laden has affected United States policy throughout much of the Islamic world, particularly in South Asia and the Middle East. Memorably, on August 20, 1998, the Pakistani Army's chief of staff, General Jehangir Karamat, was playing host in Islamabad to his American counterpart, General Joseph Ralston, the vice-chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Around ten o'clock in the evening, as the two men were having dinner, Ralston looked up from his chicken tikka, checked his watch, and informed his host that in ten minutes some sixty Tomahawk cruise missiles would be entering Pakistan's airspace. Their destination, he said, was Afghanistan, where bin Laden was believed to be operating four training camps. General Karamat was stunned, and appalled.

"It was a 'This is happening as we speak' kind of conversation," an American intelligence official told me. "Ralston was there, on the ground, to make absolutely certain that when the missiles flew across Pakistan's radar screen they would not be misconstrued as coming from India and, as a consequence, be shot down." The intelligence official paused for a moment, and then said, "This is one hell of a way to treat our friends."

By the following day, General Karamat's anger—and that of the government he served—had turned to rage. A number of the Tomahawks either had been poorly targeted or had not fallen where they were aimed. Two of the four training camps that were hit and destroyed, in the Zhawar Kili area of Afghanistan's Paktia province, were facilities of Pakistan's own intelligence agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence, or I.S.I. According to a highly placed official, five I.S.I. officers and some twenty trainees were killed. The government of Pakistan was not only furious but embarrassed, because it had not been taken into Washington's confidence. Why had there been only ten minutes' notice? And why had General Karamat been notified, instead of the Prime Minister?

Pakistan wasn't our only affronted ally. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, and the Palestinian Authority—indeed, much of the Islamic world—expressed dismay. The United States had reason to be embarrassed as well. For, despite President Clinton's claim, in a televised address a few hours after the missile strikes, that a "gathering of key terrorist leaders" had been expected to take place at one of the target sites, bin Laden and his top lieutenants were more than a hundred miles away when the missiles struck. The meeting that Clinton referred to had occurred a month earlier, in Jalalabad.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 357 of 783: Echo  (Echo) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (19:25) * 3 lines 
 
I have just returned home (to the UK) from a short trip abroad during which I had no access to the Internet, therefore wish to take this opportunity to register my deepest sympathy and untold horror and revulsion at the recent events in America.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 358 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (19:36) * 89 lines 
 


I thought this map might be valuable to those of you who are having
trouble figuring out the geography of all of this "flyover" "staging
area" stuff. I find the tiny shared border with China to be rather
interesting. I wasn't aware of that.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/sw_asia_pol00.jpg

The story JoAnn refers to says that Cheney and others in the Pentagon
weren't notified of the hijacking until 35 minutes after the air traffic
controllers had contacted the military, and well after U.S. jet fighters
were in the air. Unforuntately, the fighters were dispatched from a base
130 miles away, rather than Andrews, 15 miles away



Subject: [archivists] Attack Archive: Please suggest sites
Date: Sunday, September 16, 2001 9:48 AM
From: Brewster Kahle
To:
Cc:

Please help build a Web Archive of the Sept 11 Attack
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Internet Archive in collaboration with Alexa Internet, and SUNY, Library
of Congress and UWashington is archiving pages and sites relating to the
terrorist attacks in the NY and DC. Where we are archiving sites and pages
all the time, we are concentrating the crawlers to make sure there is a
solid historical record of this time.

If you would like to help, we can build a better archive. Here is how you
can help:

Suggest sites and pages to archive:

* This can be done by sending URL's to attackarchive@alexa.com
(this is a list of the crawl engineers at Alexa and the researchers at SUNY
and UW)

* Surf with the free Alexa Toolbar on. Every night new sites and pages are discovered by processing
the day's usage logs from the Alexa Toolbar. These are sanitized to eliminate cgi and other URL's that
might contain personal information and then those sites are crawled for the archive.

Help build a page in mid-October that will help guide people through
relevant materials. This could be similar to the Election 2000 webpage
(http://archive.alexa.com), or something else completely. We would like to
make this public at the end of October or early November.

Datamine the web archive to find past pages and sites that might be
relevant. This takes programming skill and will be more difficult for
Alexa to support, but if you are interested, please write a proposal in the
web section of the www.archive.org site.

Thank you. Please repost, but don't spam.

-brewster
Director, Internet A



"In 2000, catastrophes claimed more than 17,400 lives and caused
overall financial losses - not counting indirect economic damage - of
almost USD 50 billion. According to Swiss Re's definitive statistics,
the burden on the insurance industry was comparatively low at USD 10.6
billion."

Note that this is world-wide.
For more details, go to http://www.swissre.com/, then go to
research&Publications, and click on the pull-down item "sigma insurance
research". On that page, the item Catastrophe losses in 2000 (under
"latest sigma") will bring you to the data.

How does it compare to the damage from the last big earthquake in Japan.

For Kobe:
"Current estimates of the repair costs in this earthquake have been
reported in the range of U.S.$95 billion to U.S.$147 billion"

Source: http://www.eqe.com/publications/kobe/economic.htm


Dateline's report on the phone call from Jeremy Glick to his wife from
Flight 93 was extraordinarily well-done. The call lasted for 20 minutes,
and followed Mr. Glick's revelation of what was actually happening, and
what he had to do. He used his butter knife from breakfast as a weapon.
Here's the story:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/629077.asp


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 359 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (20:11) * 1 lines 
 
May we please keep to topic here and not to views of Islam. That is covered in Cultures in a topic all its own. I think it belongs there and not here where we discuss our national tragedy and honor those who have risked their lives in order to save others. Please! Let us not disintegrate into other divergences.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 360 of 783: Wolf  (wolf) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (20:21) * 51 lines 
 
this was forwarded to me:

Following is an article from the Miami Herald.

R/Scott
Published Wednesday, September 12, 2001
The Miami Herald
Leonard Pitts

We'll go forward from this moment. It's my job to have something to say.

They pay me to provide words that help make sense of that which troubles the American soul. But in this moment of airless shock when hot tears sting disbelieving eyes, the only thing I can find to say, the only words that seem to fit, must be addressed to the unknown author of this suffering.

You monster. You beast. You unspeakable bastard. What lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our World Trade Center, our Pentagon, us?

What was it you hoped we would learn? Whatever it was, please know that you failed.

Did you want us to respect your cause? You just damned your cause. Did you want to make us fear? You just steeled our resolve. Did you want to tear us apart? You just brought us together.

Let me tell you about my people. We are a vast and quarrelsome family, a family rent by racial, social, political and class division, but a family nonetheless. We're frivolous, yes, capable of expending tremendous emotional energy on pop cultural minutiae -- a singer's revealing dress, a ball team's misfortune, a
cartoon mouse. We're wealthy, too, spoiled by the ready availability of trinkets and material goods, and maybe because of that, we walk through life with a certain sense of blithe entitlement. We are fundamentally decent, though
-- peace-loving and compassionate. We struggle to know the right thing and to
do it. And we are, the overwhelming majority of us, people of faith, believers in a just and loving God.

Some people -- you, perhaps -- think that any or all of this makes us weak. You're mistaken. We are not weak. Indeed, we are strong in ways that cannot be measured by arsenals.

IN PAIN. Yes, we're in pain now. We are in mourning and we are in shock. We're still grappling with the unreality of the awful thing you did, still working to make ourselves understand that this isn't a special effect from some Hollywood blockbuster, isn't the plot development from a Tom Clancy novel.

Both in terms of the awful scope of their ambition and the probable final death toll, your attacks are likely to go down as the worst acts of terrorism in the history of the United States and probably, the history of the world. You've bloodied us as we have never been bloodied before.

But there's a gulf of difference between making us bloody and making us fall. This is the lesson Japan was taught to its bitter sorrow the last time anyone hit us this hard, the last time anyone brought us such abrupt and monumental pain.

When roused, we are righteous in our outrage, terrible in our force. When
provoked by this level of barbarism, we will bear any suffering, pay any cost, go to any length, in the pursuit of justice. I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know my people, as you, I think, do not. What I know reassures me. It also causes me to tremble with dread of the future.

In the days to come, there will be recrimination and accusation, fingers pointing to determine whose failure allowed this to happen and what can be done to prevent it from happening again. There will be heightened security, misguided talk of revoking basic freedoms. We'll go forward from this moment sobered, chastened, sad.

But determined, too. Unimaginably determined.

THE STEEL IN US. You see, the steel in us is not always readily apparent. That aspect of our character is seldom understood by people who don't know us well. On this day, the family's bickering is put on hold. As Americans we will weep, as Americans we will mourn, and as Americans, we will rise in defense of all that we cherish.

So I ask again: What was it you hoped to teach us? It occurs to me that maybe you just wanted us to know the depths of your hatred.

If that's the case, consider the message received. And take this message in exchange: You don't know my people. You don't know what we're capable of. You don't know what you just started.

But you're about to learn.







 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 361 of 783: Wolf  (wolf) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (20:23) * 3 lines 
 
(sorry for the length)

does anyone know the amount of rubble pulled out so far? (last i heard was 20,000 tons, just 2% of the estimated total)


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 362 of 783: Liz K  (ekelley) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (20:23) * 1 lines 
 
Terry, I think it might be appropriate to open another topic about all of this... perhaps "post 9-11-01" or something like that...I'm not sure what to call it; "new world" or something like that sounds too trivial. But I think that there are so many issues that will stem from last tuesday's events, that they should all be housed under one topic. I am using the right phrase here, right? topic would be the larger theme, and then boards are under topics, correct?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 363 of 783: Wolf  (wolf) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (20:24) * 1 lines 
 
thank you marcia!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 364 of 783: Liz K  (ekelley) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (20:30) * 1 lines 
 
thanks for posting that, Wolf. That is a great article!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 365 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (20:35) * 3 lines 
 
Great article, indeed. I am looking for the Wall Street Journal's Friday editorial. It came highly recommended to me.

I heard 22,000 tons of out of something like 460,000 tons!!!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 366 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (20:40) * 35 lines 
 
Here is the lastes results of an AOL survey.

Should the World Trade Center towers be rebuilt?
Yes 609742 59%

No 224927 22%

It's too soon to decide 187317 18%

Total votes: 1021986

And here is an article that expresses my thoughts:

"Make it green "
September 14, 2001
BY ROGER EBERT

If there is to be a memorial, let it not be of stone and steel. Fly no flag above it, for it is not the possession of a nation but a sorrow shared with the world.

Let it be a green field, with trees and flowers. Let there be paths that wind through the shade. Put out park benches where old people can sun in the summertime, and a pond where children can skate in the winter.

Beneath this field will lie entombed forever some of the victims of September 11. It is not where they thought to end their lives. Like the sailors of the battleship Arizona, they rest where they fell.

Let this field stretch from one end of the destruction to the other. Let this open space among the towers mark the emptiness in our hearts. But do not make it a sad place. Give it no name. Let people think of it as the green field. Every living thing that is planted there will show faith in the future.

Let students take a corner of the field and plant a crop there. Perhaps corn, our native grain. Let the harvest be shared all over the world, with friends and enemies, because that is the teaching of our religions, and we must show that we practice them. Let the harvest show that life prevails over death, and let the gifts show that we love our neighbors.

Do not build again on this place. No building can stand there. No building, no statue, no column, no arch, no symbol, no name, no date, no statement. Just the comfort of the earth we share, to remind us that we share it.

Copyright © Chicago Sun-Times Inc.







 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 367 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (21:36) * 0 lines 
 


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 368 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (22:28) * 3 lines 
 
I've heard that the Wakhan Corridor is pretty much deep in the Hindu Kush mountains, and isn't of much
tactical value unless you're a terrorist looking for a hideout.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 369 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (22:40) * 117 lines 
 
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 20:38:28 -0700
From: Lena M. Diethelm lendie@rawbw.com
Subject: Fwd: Real Justice

Rabbi Michael Lerner, Editor TIKKUN Magazine | 09.12.2001 There is never any
justification for acts of terror against innocent civilians-it is the
quintessential act of dehumanization and not recognizing the sanctity of
others, and a visible symbol of a world increasingly irrational and out of
control.

It's understandable why many of us, after grieving and consoling the
mourners, will feel anger-and while some demagogues in Congress have already
sought to manipulate that feeling into a growing militarism (more spies,
legalize assassinations of foreign leaders, increase the defense budget at
the expense of domestic programs), the more "responsible" leaders are
seeking to narrow America's response to targeted attacks on countries that
allegedly harbor the terrorists.

But though the perpetrators deserve to be punished, in some ways this narrow
focus allows us to avoid dealing with the underlying issues. When violence
becomes so prevalent throughout the planet, it's too easy to simply talk of
"deranged minds." We need to ask ourselves, "What is it in the way that we
are living, organizing our societies, and treating each other that makes
violence seem plausible to so many people?"

We in the spiritual world will see this as a growing global incapacity to
recognize the spirit of God in each other-what we call the sanctity of each
human being. But even if you reject religious language, you can see that the
willingness of people to hurt each other to advance their own interests has
become a global problem, and it's only the dramatic level of this particular
attack which distinguishes it from the violence and insensitivity to each
other that is part of our daily lives.

We may tell ourselves that the current violence has "nothing to do" with the
way that we've learned to close our ears when told that one out of every
three people on this planet does not have enough food, and that one billion
are literally starving. We may reassure ourselves that the hoarding of the
world's resources by the richest society in world history, and our frantic
attempts to accelerate globalization with its attendant inequalities of
wealth, has nothing to do with the resentment that others feel toward us. We
may tell ourselves that the suffering of refugees and the oppressed have
nothing to do with us-that that's a different story that is going on
somewhere else. But we live in one world, increasingly interconnected with
everyone, and the forces that lead people to feel outrage, anger, and
desperation eventually impact on our own daily lives.

The same inability to feel the pain of others is the pathology that shapes
the minds of these terrorists. Raise children in circumstances where no one
is there to take care of them, or where they must live by begging or selling
their bodies in prostitution, put them in refugee camps and tell them that
that they have "no right of return" to their homes, treat them as though
they are less valuable and deserving of respect because they are part of
some despised national or ethnic group, surround them with a media that
extols the rich and makes everyone who is not economically successful and
physically trim and conventionally "beautiful" feel bad about themselves,
offer them jobs whose sole goal is to enrich the "bottom line" of someone
else, and teach them that "looking out for number one" is the only thing
anyone "really" cares about and that anyone who believes in love and social
justice are merely naive idealists who are destined to always remain
powerless, and you will produce a world-wide population of people feeling
depressed, angry, unable to care about others, and in various ways
dysfunctional.

Luckily most people don't act out in violent ways-they tend to act out more
against themselves, drowning themselves in alcohol or drugs or personal
despair. Others turn toward fundamentalist religions or ultra-nationalist
extremism. Still others find themselves acting out against people that they
love, acting angry or hurtful toward children or relationship partners. Most
Americans will feel puzzled by any reference to this "larger picture." It
seems baffling to imagine that somehow we are part of a world system which
is slowly destroying the life support system of the planet, and quickly
transferring the wealth of the world into our own pockets.

We don't feel personally responsible when an American corporation runs a
sweat shop in the Phillipines or crushes efforts of workers to organize in
Singapore. We don't see ourselves implicated when the U.S. refuses to
consider the plight of Palestinian refugees or uses the excuse of fighting
drugs to support repression in Colombia or other parts of Central America.
We don't even see the symbolism when terrorists attack America's military
center and our trade center-we talk of them as buildings, though others see
them as centers of the forces that are causing the world so much pain.

We have narrowed our own attention to "getting through" or "doing well" in
our own personal lives, and who has time to focus on all the rest of this?
Most of us are leading perfectly reasonable lives within the options that we
have available to us-so why should others be angry at us, much less strike
out against us? And the truth is, our anger is also understandable: the
striking out by others in acts of terror against us is just as irrational as
the world-system that it seeks to confront. Yet our acts of counter-terror
will also be counter-productive. We should have learned from the current
phase of the Israel-Palestinian struggle, responding to terror with more
violence, rather than asking ourselves what we could do to change the
conditions that generated it in the first place, will only ensure more
violence against us in the future.

This is a world out of touch with itself, filled with people who have
forgotten how to recognize and respond to the sacred in each other because
we are so used to looking at others from the standpoint of what they can do
for us, how we can use them toward our own ends. The alternatives are stark:
either start caring about the fate of everyone on this planet or be prepared
for a slippery slope toward violence that will eventually dominate our daily
lives.

We should pray for the victims and the families of those who have been hurt
or murdered in these crazy acts. We should also pray that America does not
return to "business as usual," but rather turns to a period of reflection,
coming back into touch with our common humanity, asking ourselves how our
institutions can best embody our highest values. We may need a global day of
atonement and repentance dedicated to finding a way to turn the direction of
our society at every level, a return to the notion that every human life is
sacred, that "the bottom line" should be the creation of a world of love and
caring, and that the best way to prevent these kinds of acts is not to turn
ourselves into a police state, but turn ourselves into a society in which
social justice, love, and compassion are so prevalent that violence becomes
only a distant memory.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 370 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (22:43) * 20 lines 
 
More on the shared border.

The only reason it's Afghanistan is that there was obviously a concerted
effort to prevent a common border between India and Russia back in
the 1800s.

This is the very most farthest extension of ecotourism:

http://www.concordiaexpeditions.com/tartary_trip.html

This trek takes us to Northern Chitral and runs on the edge of the famous Wakhan Corridor. The corridor was
deliberately made as a buffer zone to curtail the advancing Russian influence into British India during the
18th century.

Here many spies were sent on both sides who mingled with the local populace as if they were natives. This is
the place of the Great Game which was played between the Russian 'Bear,' the English 'Lion,' and the Chinese
'Dragon.' The three empires jockeyed for land, position and influence for the strategic heart of Central
Asia.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 371 of 783: Beth  (Bethanne) * Sun, Sep 16, 2001 (23:41) * 7 lines 
 
Hey ya'll.

I was just talking to my sister in Seattle, a litle while ago. I was telling her about me and my buddy going shopping for supplies for the rescue workers in NY ( saline solution, bottled water, work boots, mens underwear etc etc ) She has heard about none of this, except for the Red Cross blood drive.

Do any of you know of any websites that I can tell her about, that give out info on what supplies are still needed ? I tried the Red Cross website, but didn't get much info.

Here in Atlanta, massive semi rigs are parked in many of our supermarkets. People are coming and filling them up with supplies, that will be then driven to NY when they are full. I guess not much of this is being done on the West Coast, coz it is a weeks drive from NY.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 372 of 783: Rob Glennie  (AotearoaKiwi) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (01:42) * 8 lines 
 
Hi all

Msg 352 - Terry: Here are the "official figures

Rob: Some bad news. New Zealand can be added to the list as 1 New Zealander is confirmed dead and at least a dozen are missing. *weeps*
Initially more than 200 New Zealanders were in the area, but I do not know how many have been accounted for - except that there is definitely at least one body.

Rob


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 373 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (07:22) * 39 lines 
 
I have been looking for an article that expresses the European point of view and this is it. It is secular as can be expected.

For the arrogance of power, America now pays a terrible price

By JONATHAN POWER

September 12, 2001

LONDON - The American nation appears not only immensely distressed and angry about the bombings but surprised too. It cannot understand why anyone should be moved by such hatred against it and, inured from the rest of us by the isolationism of most of its political representatives and its media, it has little idea of the currents swirling against it.

An event of this magnitude was not only unimagined, it was unimaginable. Yet long before George Bush became president with his forceful in-your-face, take-it-or-leave-it attitude to the world outside on issues as diverse as global warming and anti-missile defences, America has been turning in on itself, to the point of self-destructiveness.

William Pfaff, the astute American commentator, wrote recently that "America is a dangerous nation while remaining a righteous one" and America's pre-eminent foreign policy observer, George Kennan, ambassador to the Soviet Union during Stalin's time, wrote quite a few years ago, "I do not think that the United States civilization of these last 40-50 years is a successful civilization. I think this country is destined to succumb to failures which cannot be other than tragic and enormous in their scope." And later added that for Americans "to see ourselves as the centre of political enlightenment and teachers to a great part of the rest of the world [is] unthought-through, vainglorious and undesirable."

It would be misunderstanding human nature to believe that most Americans want to hear such thoughts played back to them on their day of grief, victims of an evil deed that compares with the worst of the blood-stained twentieth century. Yet they have to know that action produces reaction and not for nothing is anti-American resentment on the increase all over the world, not least in Europe where there is some astonishment at the way the new American administration has ploughed ahead with its self-interested agenda as if no one else has a legitimate opinion or could perhaps view the same situation in a different light.

Foreign observers do not miss the reports that come out of Pentagon think tanks of America's need to use this special moment after the defeat of European communism and the break up of the Soviet Union to make sure that America is militarily superior the world over, and that no one, not even its closest allies, should be in a position to tell it what to do.

The U.S. began the new millennium as the most heavily militarised nation on earth. It is the U.S., which poses the military threat to others. At the outbreak of the Second World War the U.S. army was only 174,000 men. Today it has 1.4 million in its "standing army" and a ready reserve and National Guard numbering 2.5 million. Despite the end of the Cold War, under President Bill Clinton the U.S. made only a paltry effort to wind down the nuclear arsenals of the superpowers, and instead provocatively insisted on expanding Nato close to Russia's borders. The Bush administration with its declared ambition to abandon the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, solemnly signed by Richard Nixon and Leonid Brezhnev, seems unconcerned that this will set in motion events that will unwind hard won international norms on ending nuclear testing and on the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons, even hinting that it will understand if China has to increase its nuclear forces or test new nuclear weapons.

I have talked to a range of ordinary Europeans in the last 24 hours and they all say, in the face of the earnest shoulder-to-shoulder rhetoric of their leaders, that America has got itself into this hole by its own disregard for what others think.

The first law of holes, of course, is to stop digging - which, of course, is what Washington should firmly have told Israel six presidents ago when it started its foolish and counterproductive policy of building settlements on what everyone knew was Palestinian land. Amazingly, the policy continues with apparent understanding from the Bush administration. While Arab governments ring their hands, and young Palestinians fight one of the best trained armies in the world with stones, there are the inevitable few attached to the Palestinian cause who are moved towards serious violence - the suicide bombers and, we don't know yet, although it is the most likely explanation, the destroyers of the World Trade Centre.

In every political movement - whether it be the Palestinians or the globalisation protestors in Genoa there are fringe elements that advocate violence. This does not mean the mainstream of that movement is wrong. It might or might not be. But, right or wrong, there will always be powerful elements of truth contained within it, or the passions and purpose would never be ignited.

To meet it eye for eye and tooth for tooth, as Gandhi once said, is to make everybody blind.

America right now is a repository of exhausted ideas, like dead stars. The arrogance of power has produced its inevitable reaction. America is threatened not by nuclear tipped missiles from unknown rogue nations, but by small groups of angry men who, although prisoners of their zealotry, know well enough that much of the world whilst not agreeing with them understands their frustration. To deal with this effectively requires a new way of looking at the world.

George Kennan, the late Senator William Fulbright, Willam Pfaff and others have been arguing what this might be for a long time. On this sad and tragic day one wishes their pens could become mightier than America's sword.

***

I have e-mail Mr. Power asking him why he has neglected to write about Jihad. The fact that he ignores it just goes to stress the secular/atheistic point of view of modern "Socialist" Europe.






 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 374 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (08:32) * 8 lines 
 
The UK Guardian is reporting that bin Laden has abandoned his main base
near Kandahar and has moved to an undisclosed place in the mountains. His four
wives and numerous children are with him. What if the Pakistanis
persuade the Taliban regime to hand him over? Will be martyrized?

The UK Guardian coverage on this is at:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,553156,00.html


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 375 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (08:38) * 87 lines 
 

From: Patrice Riemens
Reply-To: Patrice Riemens
To:

A New Era for Humanity

by Yann Moix
Liberation (Paris), September 14, 2001
original in French at
http://www.liberation.com/ny2001/actu/20010914venze.html


Bingo, folks! The World will never go at war again, and yet it will
be at war always, period. War and non-war, there shall be no
difference
any more. From the 11th of September 2001, all will be
war, even peace. Peace shall no longer be the opposite of war, but
its context, its natural environment, its ecosystem, its scene, its
background, its screen-saver. War and peace shall no longer be each
others contraries (that was in the good old manichean East vs West
times), but they shall be imbricated the one in the other, like the
two connected faces of the same reality. Peace shall be a kind of
specific sub-case of war. War shall henceforth be everywhere and
nowhere. War shall be waged in the dustbins of the Paris railtermini,
war shall be waged above our heads in the air of the metropolises.
War shall be permanent. War shall be open for business 24/24, 7/7 ,
just like CNN. There shall be intermissions, but no reprieve. It
shall be a war blind, yet precise, fuzzy, yet targeted. Because never
before has the distortion been so stark between
fuziness of the causes and the acuurateness of the strikes .

The First HyperWorldWar has started. It is a war where all pretenses
will fly, and where acts will be used as statements of purpose
afterwards. Let's call this a hyperwar: a world where the ordinary,
natural context of societies is no longer peace, but war. A hyperwar
is not a classic world war with opposite fighting sides. It is a
'non-Euclydian', non-catalogised war, without rules and principles
others than its own logic. Hyperwar cannot be localised in space.
Nor in time. It is a kind of magnum opus of terrorism,its _best of_
or rather its _worst of_: plane hijacks, crashes, bombs, kamikaze
operations.

In fact it was the 20th century as a whole that was fast-forwarded
in just a couple of minutes on the 11th of September, 2001. And that
will be the birth certificate of the 21st Century, like (the 31st of
July) 1914 was it for the 20th. But it are no longer states which are
waging war, but wars that are making states. But then, unheard of sort
of states: non-nation-states, states without teritorry, without
citizens or borders, without (elected) governements, nay, these are
virtual states, scattered war-states, fuzzy, networked octopus-states,
community-states whose only borders are ideological. These states,
just like virusses, evolve, adjust, mutate, invent and reinvent
themselves everyday. Sometimes, their size is reduced to that of a
lone individual who is an ideology, an army, a clear and present
danger all unto himself. And a walking bomb. After the era of the
statesmen comes the era of the state-men. The political state has
become undistinguishable from the biological state.

Over these past days, we have been bombarded with the metaphor of
Pearl Harbour: nothing could be further from the truth. Pearl Harbour
was an episode within a war. The 11th of september was the definition
of an other type of war, the starting point for a new era in human
history.

The human element is now being affected all over the planet, since
hyperwars feeds itself on the psychoses it creates by the permanent
menace it exerts on all. Psychosis has become the continuation of war
by other means. It gnaws at the individual, it eats up her/his mind,
it shatters her/his rational structure. It is a war on the 'may be/
may be not' mode, whereby the horror is mainly a potential one. And
thus, it is a war that may have a beginning, but no end. Hyperwar is
built for the long run. It thrives in totality, that of the universe
and of eternity.


(Halelujah! - tr -)
(Q&D translation by yours truly)
Reposted without permission whatsoever

# distributed via : no commercial use without permission
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 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 376 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (08:40) * 11 lines 
 

A good Robert Scheer op-ed on the "unleash the CIA" blather can be
found in today's LA Times at:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editorials/la-091701scheer.column

an editorial today in the LA Times raises another question about
unsavory allies:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editorials/la-000074763sep17.story?coll=la%2Dnews%2Dcomment%2Deditorials



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 377 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (08:44) * 292 lines 
 
From: William Meyers
To: , , , ,
Date: 9/15/01 3:12PM
Subject: after the hit

Dear Everyone,

Here's an important document issued yesterday that we should all keep in

mind:


Human Rights Watch Response to Attacks on the U.S.
Civilian Life Must Be Respected

(New York, September 12, 2001) -- We profoundly condemn

yesterday's cruel attacks in the United States and express our condolences
to the victims
and their loved ones. This was an assault not merely on

one nation or one people, but on principles of respect for civilian life

cherished by all people.
We urge all governments to unite to investigate this
crime, to prevent its recurrence, and to bring to justice those who are
responsible.

Last night, President Bush said that the United States
"will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts
and those who
harbored them." Yet distinctions must be made: between
the guilty and the innocent; between the perpetrators and the civilians
who may surround
them; between those who commit atrocities and those who

may simply share their religious beliefs, ethnicity or national origin.
People committed to
justice and law and human rights must never descend to
the level of the perpetrators of such acts. That is the most important
distinction of all.

There are people and governments in the world who believe
that in the struggle against terrorism, ends always justify means. But
that is also the logic
of terrorism. Whatever the response to this outrage, it

must not validate that logic. Rather, it must uphold the principles that

came under attack
yesterday, respecting innocent life and international
law. That is the way to deny the perpetrators of this crime their ultimate
victory.





And here's the letter from HHDL to GWB that got released to the public
yesterday:


1. The Dalai Lama's letter to the President of the United States of
America
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your Excellency,

I am deeply shocked by the terrorist attacks that took place involving
four apparently hijacked aircrafts and the immense devastation these
caused. It is a terrible tragedy that so many innocent lives have been
lost and it seems

unbelievable that anyone would choose to target the World Trade Center in
New York City and the Pentagon in Washington D.C. We are deeply saddened.
On

behalf of the Tibetan people I would like to convey our deepest condolence
and solidarity with the American people during this painful time. Our
prayers go out to the many who have lost their lives, those who have been
injured and the many more who have been traumatized by this senseless act
of violence. I am attending a special prayer for the United States and
it's people at our main temple today.

I am confident that the United States as a great and powerful nation will
be able to overcome this present tragedy. The American people have shown
their resilience, courage and determination when faced with such difficult
and

sad situation.

It may seem presumptuous on my part, but I personally believe we need to

think seriously whether a violent action is the right thing to do and in
the greater interest of the nation and people in the long run. I believe
violence will only increase the cycle of violence. But how do we deal with
hatred and anger, which are often the root causes of such senseless
violence? This is a very difficult question, especially when it concerns a
nation and we have certain fixed

conceptions of how to deal with such attacks. I am sure that you will make
the right decision.

With my prayers and good wishes
The Dalai Lama
September 12, 2001
Dharamsala, India





And, for contrast, here's a little excerpt from today's Times about what

life is like here today:



The three major metropolitan airports in the New York region reopened in

the late morning, but
confusion reigned as schedules were

strewn with cancellations, bags were searched and
passengers were questioned
aggressively. And in the evening, the three airports were closed
because of the arrests at Kennedy and
La Guardia.

As for the rest of New York, it was

to be a day of return to relatively normal life, with schools,
theaters and many businesses
reopening, and commuters traveling on bridges and through tunnels
that had been closed. But instead of
a nearly normal day, countless New Yorkers endured yet
another psychological roller coaster.

First came disheartening news. After
days of vague but ominous estimates, Mayor Rudolph W.
Giuliani announced in the late
morning that 4,763 people were believed missing in the trade center
rubble, bringing the possible death

toll in the coordinated attacks to nearly 5,000 — more than
double the 2,390 Americans lost at
Pearl Harbor. The mayor said that only 184 bodies or body
parts had been found, and that only

35 of them had been identified. Among the missing were 300
firefighters and 60 police officers.

Three hours later, even as hope
seemed to fade for those buried under the collapsed trade center,
there were reports that the desperate
round-the-clock search for survivors had yielded three, or five,
or seven firefighters, alive after 50
hours trapped under the mountains of rubble. Miraculously,
some were said to have walked away,

or even to have picked up tools to join their rescuers. The
Associated Press, WCBS-TV and CNN put
out the news, and calls from relatives of the missing
flooded a Fire Department hot line.

But by late afternoon, the accounts

of rescues were dismissed by officials as rumors that
apparently started after several
rescuers fell into a hole in the rubble and, after 15 minutes, were
pulled out. Since the site is
dangerous and off-limits to the news media, the accounts apparently
originated with rescue workers who
misunderstood what they saw, and were passed on to
reporters.

Meanwhile, the craziness was
spreading around town. Some 90 bomb threats in the late morning
and early afternoon led to
evacuations at Grand Central Terminal and the MetLife Building above
it, the Port Authority Bus Terminal,
La Guardia Airport, Macy's department store, the Condé Nast
Building in Times Square, CNN's
Midtown bureau and other buildings.

Tens of thousands were involved, and
on crowded Midtown streets where the evacuees milled
about, spikes of panic were observed
— weeping, anger, even some fights — that seemed to reflect
confusion, irritation and
exasperation rather than fear, a kind of psychic reaction to the long days
of high tension.


Michael Pecoriello, 56, who works for a publishing company and was
evacuated from 5 Penn Plaza, found himself in a crowd mumbling
frustrations. "Some peoplecan't deal with this," he said. "It's
scary."


On a higher note, I've been able to plug in with the Tibetans -- attended
their candlelight vigil last night in Union Square...where the amount of
candles and flowers and posted photos of "the missing" is emotionally
overwhelming. A lot of Tibetan monks were there last night, chanting for

the dead -- a very high meditation vibration that generated some real
peace...and the Representative of HH announced and talked about the things
below:



3. Press Release from the Office of Tibet, NYC re: attack on the US
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HIS HOLINESS THE DALAI LAMA SENDS HIS CONDOLENCES TO PRESIDENT BUSH AND
THE
AMERICAN PEOPLE

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contacts: Ngawang Phelgyal
September 12, 2001 Tenzin
Kalsang Choephel
(212)
213-5010

NEW YORK - On September 12, 2001, His Holiness the Dalai Lama sent a
letter expressing his shock and sadness to President George Bush and the
American people after hearing of the recent events in New York City and
Washington, D.C. He states, "It is a terrible tragedy that so many
innocent lives have been lost . . . We are deeply saddened. On behalf of
the Tibetan people I would like to convey our deepest condolence and
solidarity with the American people during this painful time. Our prayers
go out to the many who have lost lives, those who have been injured and
the many more who have been traumatized by this senseless act of
violence."

His Holiness concludes His letter to the President with a poignant
question: "It may seem presumptuous on my part, but I personally believe
we need to think seriously whether a violent action is the right thing to
do and in the greater interest of the nation and people in the long run.
I believe violence will only increase the cycle of violence. But how do
we deal with hatred and anger, which are often the root causes of such
senseless violence?"

The Prime Minister of the Tibetan Government in Exile also sent condolence
letters to the President and the New York City Mayor, Rudolph Giuliani.
Both Tibetan leaders conveyed their confidence that the U.S. as a great
nation will overcome these recent events and the American people will show
their resilience, courage and determination.

A Special Prayer Session was held yesterday at the main temple in
Dharamsala, India for all the victims of the terrorist attack. His
Holiness the Dalai Lama presided over the prayer session. All offices of
the Tibetan Government in Exile were closed for half the day in
observation.

The Office of Tibet New York is the official representative office of His
Holiness the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government in Exile to the
Americas. Representative Nawang Rabgyal, still grieving over the events
downtown, was able to report that no Tibetans were located near the World
Trade Center or the Pentagon yesterday. Tibetans who reside in New York
have been visiting area hospitals to give blood as well as coordinating
food donations for the rescue workers." No Tibetan Support Groups or
Dharma centers in Manhattan were affected by the attack.

The Tibetan community of New York and New Jersey consists of around 2,000
Tibetans and will be holding a prayer service at 6:00pm in Union Square
tomorrow, September 13, 2001. All who wish to attend are welcome.

I can attest that all who attended, including myself, felt a lot more
peaceful afterward.

I've been reading HHDL's Ethics for the New Millennium lately to help with
staying sane. Wish I could afford to buy everybody a copy -- but then I
guess it wouldn't make any difference to a suicide bomber. You have to be
relatively sane to be susceptible to the teachings...preaching to the
converted, that's the dilemma.

And I don't think there's going to be any deterring the military campaign
that's about to begin -- or the ensuing war. "Rendezvous With Afghanistan"
is the headline over the lead editorial in today's times. The president is
due to arrive here this afternoon for a eulogy to the dead and a war
rally. All we can do is hope and pray, and offer our presumptuous
advice...

Love, William









 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 378 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (09:03) * 77 lines 
 
Also in the Independent an interesting analysis by Robert Fisk, their
Beirut correspondent. He has lived the last 23 years in the Middle
East, and he received the Brirish International Journalist of the Year
award seven times.

"Bush is walking into a trap"

...

"President Bush appears to be heading for the very disaster that Osama bin
Laden has laid down for him."

...

"But this crime was perpetrated - it becomes ever clearer - to provoke the
United States into just the blind, arrogant punch that the US military is
preparing."

"Mr bin Laden - every day his culpability becomes more apparent -
has described to me how he wishes to overthrow the pro-American regime of
the Middle East, starting with Saudi Arabia and moving on to Egypt, Jordan
and the other Gulf states. In an Arab world sunk in corruption and
dictatorships - most of them supported by the West -
the only act that might bring Muslims to strike at their own leaders
would be a brutal, indiscriminate assault by the United States."

...

""America was targeted for attack,'' Mr Bush informed us on Friday,
"because we are the brightest beacon for freedom and opportunity in the
world.'' But this is not why America was attacked. If this was an
Arab-Muslim apocalypse, then it is intimately associated with events in
the Middle East and with America's stewardship of the area."

...

"I will take a tiny risk and say that no other British newspaper
- certainly no American newspaper -
will today recall the fact that on 16 September 1982, Israel's Phalangist
militia allies started their three-day orgy of rape and knifing and murder
in the Palestinian refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila that cost 1,800
lives. It followed an Israeli invasion of Lebanon
designed to drive the PLO out of the country and given the green light by
the then US Secretary of State, Alexander Haig
which cost the lives of 17,500 Lebanese and Palestinians, almost all of
them civilians. That's probably three times the death toll in the World
Trade Centre. Yet I do not remember any vigils or memorial services or
candle-lighting in America or the West for the innocent dead of Lebanon; I
don't recall any stirring speeches about democracy or liberty. In fact, my
memory is that the United States spent most of the bloody months of July
and August 1982 calling for "restraint"."

...

"But America's failure to act with honour in the Middle East, its
promiscuous sale of missiles to those who use them against civilians, its
blithe disregard for the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqi children
under sanctions of which Washington is the principal supporter -
all these are intimately related to the society that produced the Arabs
who plunged America into an apocalypse of fire last week."

...

"Every effort will be made in the coming days to switch off the "why''
question and concentrate on the who, what and how. CNN and most of the
world's media have already obeyed this essential new war rule."

...

"I repeat: what happened in New York was a crime against humanity. And
that means policemen, arrests, justice, a whole new international court at
The Hague if necessary. Not cruise missiles and "precision'' bombs and
Muslim lives lost in revenge for Western lives. But the trap has been
sprung. Mr Bush - perhaps we, too - are now walking into it."





 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 379 of 783: Evelyn  (lafn) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (09:20) * 1 lines 
 
Thanks Moon. I too wondered when that kind of sentiment was going to hit the press.They never have anything good to say about the US except when they need help.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 380 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (09:22) * 1 lines 
 
Dow down over 600, probably under 9000.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 381 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (09:48) * 11 lines 
 
Slate answers the question "What does bin Laden want?"

Bin Laden and his followers are alarming because they don't want anything
from us. They don't want our sympathy. They want no material thing we can
offer them. They don't want to participate in the community of nations.
(They don't really believe in the nation-state.) They are motivated by
religion, not politics. They answer to no one but their god, so they
certainly won't answer to us.

http://slate.msn.com/Assessment/01-09-13/Assessment.asp



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 382 of 783: Mari Fulginiti  (mari) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (09:49) * 5 lines 
 
I have been looking for an article that expresses the European point of view and this is it. It is secular as can be expected.

Moon, before we label this "the European point of view" let's step back and ask any Europeans on this board if they agree. I did read that the BBC ran a panel discussion the other evening and the "audience members" reflected many of this article's views. However, the Beeb was flooded with more than 2,000 calls of protest from viewers who felt that there was a disproportionate amount of anti-Americanism espoused and that it did not reflect the feelings of the average person. BTW, our ambassador was on the program and was to said to have been reduced to tears. Greg Dyke, head of the BBC, later apologized to him.

It is true that the foreign press tends to be very critical of America, and even in the calmest of times, resorts to cheap shots--but I am interested in finding out what the average person thinks. For which publication does Jonathan Powers write?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 383 of 783: Evelyn  (lafn) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (10:39) * 7 lines 
 


Mari, we are talking here of the media...print,audio and visual.The Fourth Estate.Not the ordinary guy on the street.

The tone of that article is "We told you so..".Almost with glee.
They have short memories of who pulls them out of binds.
And , sadly,so do we .


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 384 of 783: Echo  (Echo) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (10:45) * 2 lines 
 
Articles in the British press today suggest that the terrorist attack on America may have been meant not merely as a "punishment" but primarily to provoke American wrath and powerful military response which would then serve as a means of turning moderate Muslims against America and the Western world.
If there is no response, they may attack again. Catch 22.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 385 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (10:57) * 3 lines 
 
Sad when people think the US response would be carpet bombing of Afghanistan. Even that I would protest as a waste of my taxpayer money. Judicious use of our resources may already be having effect. Yesterday I heard that assets were being frozen worldwide (even Swiss accounts) of known enemies, including government ministers of the Taliban. A bit of motivation for turning bin Laden in?

There must be a response as history has shown us that appeasement is not acceptable when you are dealing with fanatics. People seem to have forgotten that.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 386 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (11:21) * 12 lines 
 
For which publication does Jonathan Powers write?
He is a syndicated columnist based in London. I read it in The Miami Herald.

the Beeb was flooded with more than 2,000 calls of protest from viewers who felt that there was a disproportionate amount of anti-Americanism espoused and that it did not reflect the feelings of the average person.
I read this too, but the reason was that the people thought it was way to soon and therefore in very bad taste. The US Ambassador was brought to tears, FGS. They felt that the BBC should have taped and edited instead of airing it live. The unfortunate reality is that in general, there is a very strong anti-American sentiment in Europe.

If there is no response, they may attack again. Catch 22.
I would say, they will attack again. This is not a good situation to be in, but we're in it. I have said this before, it's the Crusades all over again.

There must be a response as history has shown us that appeasement is not acceptable when you are dealing with fanatics. People seem to have forgotten that.
England, Ireland, Spain and Italy have suffered greatly from terrorist attacks.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 387 of 783: Mari Fulginiti  (mari) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (11:23) * 10 lines 
 
The tone of that article is "We told you so..".Almost with glee.

I know, and that's very hurtful, but it's nothing new. But, if I could have one or the other, I'd rather have the support of the guy in the street. Not to mention the guy at 10 Downing. What I was trying to explore: is there one monolithic European viewpoint, and the answer of course is no.

They have short memories of who pulls them out of binds.
And , sadly,so do we.


You can't keep throwing it up to people, or get into a pissing contest over who has paid the highest price. It's counterproductive, especially now.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 388 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (11:30) * 1 lines 
 
And the world was a *perfect* place when America was isolationist?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 389 of 783: Liz K  (ekelley) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (11:33) * 1 lines 
 



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 390 of 783: Liz K  (ekelley) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (11:44) * 177 lines 
 
I think that we (America) need to re-examine all of our foreign policies, keeping in mind what our intentions are towards that nation (as the policies have always been), but also how we may be perceived by those governments. I know that is not exactly how most people would like for us to be- reactionary instead of proactive- but I think looking at the stark contrast of opinions in just the messages the presses of the two countries are putting out, is astonishing (perhaps less so to the rest of the world than to us).

I don't think that America can afford to continue in the pseudo-isolationist way that we've been for the last however many years. I personally do not agree with the current administration's take it or leave it attitude towards the world. It is quite obvious to me, at least, that we have ignored serious concerns that the rest of the world seems to see and understand. I know that not a lot of people agree with me, or would voice this opinion if they have it, but I do not think that we should be backing (or as we appear to be backing) Israel in the way we are right now. I understand the historical ties there, and all that they entail, but when we sit back and just remove ourselves entirely from the situation, what does that say? It says "it's ok for you all to kill each other; we'll just sit back and wait." That's not right. There is no justification for the loss of any life there, Israeli or Palestinian, just as there is no justification for the loss of life here in NY, or in other parts of the Middle
ast, Ireland, Asia, etc. Here is a very good article from The Economist magazine from last week's web addition. I can't find the URL...I emailed it to myself...

AMERICA'S PLACE IN THE WORLD


The devastation wrought on September 11th will shape the debate about American
foreign policy for years to come

A TABOO has been broken. The attacks on New York and Washington, DC so dwarf
earlier examples of terrorism in the United States that they are, in effect,
the bombing of mainland America that even the Japanese and the Nazis did not
achieve during the second world war. For some time to come, most attention in
the United States will be focused on the most pressing questions. Who
perpetrated the attack? How to strike back at the culprits? How to protect
America from another such terrorist atrocity? But once these questions are
addressed, an even larger question will have to be faced: what is America's
proper role in the world?

Indeed, in a confused fashion, the debate on that question has already begun.
While the administration has been determined to present a united front, and has
largely succeeded, the very complexity of the task facing it has elicited
statements which seem to point in different directions. Both George Bush and
his secretary of state, Colin Powell, have emphasised that America is looking
to its allies for support in an effort to launch a global fight against
terrorism. They have spoken of the attacks on New York and Washington as
attacks on freedom-loving people everywhere, not just on the United States. And
yet, at the same time, they have made it clear that America will defend itself,
implying it will retaliate alone if necessary. Although the administration
would clearly like to build a Gulf war-style coalition to support its next
steps, America's allies are rightly nervous that they will have little
influence over an aroused and angered United States.

American television and newspapers have been full of commentators calling for
declarations of war or military intervention on the one hand, and calm
restraint on the other. Some have said that it is essential to look to
America's allies for support, others that America must take decisive action
soon, no matter what the concerns of its friends abroad. Some have claimed that
America's terrorist opponents can be crushed, and that any governments thought
to have harboured terrorists should be attacked, whether or not it can be shown
that they had anything to do with the assault this week. One NEW YORK TIMES
columnist absurdly insisted that Congress should make a general declaration of
war, even if it cannot say which country America is actually at war with.
Others have argued that dropping bombs elsewhere in the world can never make
America safe from another such attack, and that preserving civil liberties at
home and expanding diplomatic, as well as military, efforts abroad is the only
long-term approach.

A NEW WORLD OF DISORDER

What is clear is that the self-confidence which prompted George Bush senior,
the father of the current president, to speak boldly about a "new world order"
more than a decade ago, and which spawned such optimistic paeans to American
values and the triumph of liberal democracies as Francis Fukuyama's "The End of
History", will now look like the relics of a distant age. America may have won
the cold war, and just completed a decade of unparallelled prosperity. But it
evidently now lives in a much more dangerous and complicated world than most
Americans ever imagined. For many of its policymaking elite, if there is to be
any single text summoning up this darker vision, it is likely to be "The Clash
of Civilizations" by Samuel Huntington, an article published in 1993 (later
expanded into a book) which predicted that democratic countries led by the
United States would end up locked in violent conflict with Islamic extremism.

Opinions about how America should conduct itself internationally will be
diverse, and more contentious than ever. Nevertheless, views about how it
should now pursue its foreign policy are likely to run along well-worn paths,
and might usefully be categorised into three broad groups: isolationism,
multilateralism, and unilateralism.

Outright isolationists have not commanded broad political support in America.
There is a contingent in Congress which regularly argues the isolationist case,
scorning America's participation in international institutions such as the
United Nations and the International Monetary Fund and maintaining, in effect,
that the United States should draw in its horns. But national candidates such
as Pat Buchanan, Ross Perot or Jerry Brown, who have criticised troop
deployments, immigration policies, trade agreements and other policies from an
isolationist standpoint, have failed.

For isolationists, America has been foolish to think that it could help sort
out the intractable conflicts of others

And yet many Americans have little interest in the rest of the world, and do
view foreign entanglements with distaste or suspicion. At various points in its
history, such as the period between the two world wars, isolationism has played
a powerful role in American politics. The attacks on New York and Washington
seem bound to encourage some people to call for the United States to draw back
from its extensive military commitments around the world, to reduce its links
to multilateral institutions, and to concentrate on its own narrowly defined
interests and security. For isolationists, America has been foolish to think
that it could help sort out the intractable conflicts of others. Attempts at
peacemaking or peacekeeping in conflicts that do not concern it directly have
only stirred up the enmity which has led to horrific acts of terrorism. Osama
bin Laden, the prime suspect behind the attack on America, was once an American
ally against the Russians in Afghanistan. The more involved America becomes
abroad, the more unpredictably and often perverse the results. If such views
can be presented as reasonable, by a mainstream political figure, they could
yet win more support.

However, they are unlikely to prevail because true isolationism is no longer
possible for the United States. Its economy is too entwined with the world's
trading system, and international financial markets, for it to eschew any
interest in, or influence on, the rest of the world. There are practical, and
severe, limits to how isolationist America can become without gravely injuring
itself. Critics will also point out that an isolationist withdrawal is probably
exactly what the terrorists who planned the attacks this week are after, and
that responding this way and abandoning allies, especially Israel, would be
tantamount to admitting defeat.

Multilateralists will argue precisely the opposite case: that America must be
more engaged than ever in international institutions and acting in concert with
its allies. America can only find genuine security, in their view, in a world
where international law carries greater weight, democracy and stable government
is more widespread, weapons proliferation is controlled through international
agreement and governments co-operate much more closely in monitoring and
capturing the kind of terrorist groups which perpetrated this week's outrages.
According to this argument, it has been America's lack of consistency in its
relations with allies and foes alike, and its sporadic attention to places such
as the Middle East, that have allowed virulent anti-Americanism to fester.

For multilateralists, many of the Bush administration's recent
actions--marching out of the United Nations' conference on racism, indicating
that it is determined to abandon the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, spurning
the Kyoto Protocol--have been high-handed, and set exactly the wrong tone. It
is not in America's long-term interest to appear arrogant, or narrowly
self-interested, they will say. As the sole remaining superpower, America must
take on the mantle of leadership, but also show itself co-operative and willing
to compromise as well.

But critics of multilateralism will retort that it is naive, too theoretical,
and much the same as the now-derided "new world order" of the first Bush
administration, when the collapse of the Soviet Union made it seem as if the
world was safe for the spread of democracy. America should now know better. To
some critics, multilateralists will themselves appear arrogant, as if they
believe America can solve all the world's problems. Others will charge them
with being "appeasers", ready to deal with almost anyone in order to achieve
peace deals like that between the Israelis and Palestinians, which then fall
apart. Although a superpower, these critics will say, America has something in
common with all other countries: it must put its own national interests first.

The third competing doctrine, unilateralism, would aim to do this.
Unilateralists will argue that America must clearly define its national
priorities, rather than embrace the woolly abstractions of the
multilateralists, and then act to meet these goals, even if this sometimes
means ignoring allies, breaking international law or breaching past agreements.
America, they believe, should be wary of becoming embroiled in the quarrels and
conflicts of others. It should only use military force when its interests are
directly at stake. But, most of all, it should not be afraid to deploy those
forces when attacked. Only America can protect itself.

Eventually, the unilateralists themselves may come to seem naive. Can even
America rely solely on its own defences in such an interconnected world?

Unilateralism, tempered with diplomacy where possible, seems to be the approach
of the Bush administration, although statements by its top officials, including
Mr Bush himself, have sometimes been so contradictory that it is difficult to
discern a coherent philosophy. As America struggles to find a response to this
week's attacks, unilateralism will clearly hold sway. America's NATO allies
have pledged their full support. Even if they have reservations about America's
response--a bombing of Afghanistan for example--that is unlikely to weigh very
heavily with Washington. But bombing terrorists, or those who are thought to
harbour them, is unlikely to make America more secure from further attacks. In
fact, it is likely to have the opposite effect.

Eventually, the unilateralists themselves may come to seem naive. Can even
America rely solely on its own defences in such an interconnected world? Can it
define its national interests as distinct and separate from those of other
democratic nations? Can it expect allies always to stand shoulder to shoulder
with it in times of crisis if it ignores their advice whenever it likes? Can it
confine its interventions abroad to situations where its own interests can be
clearly identified and narrowly defined? The terrorist attacks in New York and
Washington seem to raise all these questions. Nevertheless, in response to
them, unilateralists seem bound to prevail for the time being. But they, too,
will have critics to answer.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 391 of 783: Mari Fulginiti  (mari) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (12:46) * 24 lines 
 
Moon, this is the article I referred to. Again, I was commenting on viewer reaction--not the BBC's excuses.

BBC sorry over anti-US TV audience

LONDON (Reuters) - The head of the BBC, Greg Dyke, has apologised for broadcasting a live discussion programme in which audience members blamed U.S. foreign policy for Tuesday's terror attacks.

More than 2,000 viewers complained after seeing the former U.S. Ambassador to Britain, Philip Lader, brought close to tears after attempts to express his sadness over the attacks were shouted down by people expressing anti-American views.

"On balance, I think it was an inappropriate programme to broadcast live just two days after the attacks in the United States and I would like to apologise to viewers who were offended by it," Dyke said in a statement.

The scenes on the Question Time programme on Thursday night prompted Dyke, the BBC's Director General, to add: "With hindsight this programme should have been recorded and edited before it was broadcast."

"I have today spoken to Philip Lader, and apologised for any distress the programme may have caused him," Dyke said.

One audience member had asked whether the attacks were the result of a failure of US foreign policy "with millions of people around the world despising the American nation," according to the Independent newspaper.

Mr Lader, who was slow hand clapped by some members of the audience, was tearful. "I find it hurtful that you are suggesting that a majority of the world despises the United States," he said according to news sources.

The Sun newspaper said that one Arab woman replied: "It is the American government which is talking about war." The programme's presenter, David Dimbleby, struggled to control the discussion and tempers became raised, according to the BBC.

The Corporation said that many of those who complained about the programme said the audience seemed to contain a disproportionate number of people with anti-American views.

The BBC said that the programme tried to pick audiences with a broad range of views and had hoped to stage a frank discussion about the attacks.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 392 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (13:24) * 9 lines 
 
Mari in the balance of things, there is a stronger anti-American view in general, therefore the balance was probably tilted correctly.

A NEW WORLD OF DISORDER
Globalization is a far off ideal. This is the real world, I hope world leaders get hip to the beat.

I am just waiting to see when the call comes to the European "allies" who will respond.

An interesting article, Liz. And I don't usually agree with the views of The Economist.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 393 of 783: Beth  (Bethanne) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (14:10) * 4 lines 
 
So many articles I have read this morning, talk about how Bush and his "take it or leave it" arrrogant approach to world affairs, is partially responsible for the horrors of last Tuesday.

Aren't these authors forgetting, that the ball for the horrific events of Sep 11, started rolling long before Bush came to power ? These hijackers were tucked away at their Florida flight schools when Bill Clinton was still in power and Bush Jr was just another politican. Clinton by the way, did a damm sight more to end terrorism than any other US President in history, in my homeland of Ireland. Pro US feelings probably run higher in Ireland, than in any other European country.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 394 of 783: Ann W  (amw) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (14:18) * 1 lines 
 
Everyone, I can assure you that from what I have heard, discussions on the radio, television, with people, ordinary people in the street, Politicians of all parties, no one is anti- American, you have our full and unqualified support, of that I am certain, I have heard no dissenters. Everyone in the UK is appalled and shocked by last week's tragedy, who would not be.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 395 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (14:55) * 7 lines 
 
Ann, One can have anti-American views and be appalled and shocked by last week's tragedy. The point is that in general that's the feeling in Europe.

Pro US feelings probably run higher in Ireland, than in any other European country.
Agreed!

Aren't these authors forgetting, that the ball for the horrific events of Sep 11, started rolling long before Bush came to power?
I agree again,Beth, but don't forget that the majority of the media in Europe is secular and socialist. That says it all!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 396 of 783: rachael  (rachael) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (15:15) * 18 lines 
 

Moon, in general, what's the feeling in Europe? anti American? as a
European, I beg to disagree. Maybe there aren't as many Europeans on this
board as on some of the other groups I'm in, but the out-pouring of
feelings from all over Europe, indeed the world, has been amazing to see.

And does questioning what a government does make you anti that govt? I
don't think so, in fact I think its the essence of democracy.

However it must be noted that it is no more correct to say "Europeans
think ..." than it would be to say "Americans think ..." and to say that
there is a sole European view would be incorrect. I suggest, very
hesitantly, that there might be differences between English speaking and
non English speaking nations - Beth would you say that's fair?

BTW the mainstream media in the UK is far from socialist, despite what the
Daily Bellylaugh would have us believe.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 397 of 783: Evelyn  (lafn) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (15:19) * 33 lines 
 

"The Corporation said that many of those who complained about the
programme said the audience seemed to contain a disproportionate number of
people with anti-American views. "


"Anti- people" are the ones that are mostly motivated to appear on those
shows and most of them have hidden agendas. Ann, I know that the majority
of the UK friends don't have those feelings. I have been listening to TV
this aft and now is the time that all the special interest groups are
gonna come out fighting.Get ready to hear from: the environmentalists, the
animal rights people,pro -life, NOW, the various political parties, the
extreme religious right. This is after all a democracy. Everyone has an
opinion.


This came yesterday from a British Theatre Newsletter: "To all of our US
subscribers, I know I speak for everyone else when I send you our deepest
sympathies. Whether one agrees with US foreign policy or not, no one can
condone mass murder or be unmoved by the scale of the tragedy which has
struck your nation. I love New York and have many friends there. I am
unable to express the depth of my horror at what has happened.

Today, as I drove near my home, I saw some young children had set what in
the UK we call a "jumble sale" on a grassed area. They were selling their
toys and books to raise money for the American Red Cross and a US flag
flew over the tables. I think that says far more than I can."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~ We don't all agree with every foreign policy decision that
is made, but to say we deserved the tragedy as that article intimated is
barbaric.





 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 398 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (15:25) * 14 lines 
 

Moon, in general, what's the feeling in Europe? anti American? as a
European, I beg to disagree.
One can have anti-American views and be
appalled and shocked by last week's tragedy. The point is that in general
that's the feeling in Europe. I will stop repeating myself here as this
point does not seem to get through.

And does questioning what a government does make you anti that govt? I
don't think so, in fact I think its the essence of democracy.
To be
truly "democratic" you should present both points of view. Unfortunately,
and again I repeat, the majority of the media in Europe is secular and
socialist. And it comes off very one-sided. I will add that I am very
familiar with the Italian and French Media.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 399 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (15:31) * 10 lines 
 

Rob, my sympathies. Warmest Hugs on New Zealand's loss.

Sorry you multinationals, but rolling over and playing dead will just play
into their hands. If we don't stop it, they will take over the world. Good
luck! Perhaps you don't want our help next time YOUR war starts?!

I think I will go back to geology and astronomy where some rationality
reigns.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 400 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (15:49) * 10 lines 
 

I think I will go back to geology and astronomy where some rationality
reigns.
LOL, Marcia!

I don't wish to be misunderstood. I think everyone should join forces with
the US to fight this war. I would like it to be a united effort and I was
only questioning whether it will be. Whether the European allies will join
the US? I hope to God that they will. There is no socialist/secular blood
in my veins!



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 401 of 783: Beth  (Bethanne) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (16:01) * 56 lines 
 

I really think at this stage, most Americans look on the candle light
vigils and the expressions of sympathy and support as really nice and up
lifting.

However, ( those who are in favour of military action ) believe that while
expressions of support are wonderful, it is time for European governments
to put their money where their mouth is and show their support in more
concrete terms. Italy said yesterday for example, that while they condemm
the terrorist attacks, they will not coperate with the US in any military
actions the US takes. They think that this is America's fight and not
their own. I wonder will they still think that, if the next plane to be
hikacked is an Italian one ?

So having a nation wide moment of silence in your country is a lovely
thing, it ISnot going to get the job done against the terorists.

I don't think pro or anti American feelings are causing European nations
to react as they do to possible military actions. I think it is simply
whether or not they are willing to get their hands dirty to wipe out a
threat that affects us all. Some will be, some won't be....simple as
that.

Plus I really feel a lot of this so called anti-American sentiment is
based largely on resentment, based on America wealth and power. They
resent America for having such an abundance of riches when they are
living, if not a hand to mouth exhistance, at least a less luxurious one.

America is percieved as the big, ugly kid in the corner who can boss
people around simply because they can. Then are then disliked and picked
on, when in fact they may be simple and peace loving as the rest of us.

Every time I go home to Ireland, I get little digs from friends and family
about my jet set life style and my fabulous standard of living, simply
beacuse I live in America. I mean it is ridiculous. They have no clue
what my life is really like and, that it is on many levels, just as hard
as theirs. But that little bit if resentment is always there. It drives
me nuts.

I really think a lot of this sentiment has its roots in WW2 too. The USA
bailed Europe out of a big ole nasty mess 50 years ago, and then gave
Europe a ton of money to rebuild itself. This messed with Eropeans sense
of their own self worth as they needed a vulgar, upstart of a nation to
save their butts 50 years ago. No one likes the feeling of being
permanantly beholden to someone. If they can take a little dig at America
and how messed up its foreign policy is, then maybe in some sad little
way, it ressures them that they are not just one tiny, little European
country.....but that they are still the great colonial power from 100
years ago. They hate the fact that the US has a larger role to play in
world affairs than they do and resent them as a result.

I'm sorry if my thoughts sound vague or disjointed. I'm getting ready to
go to an Aerosmith concert, as I type. I had been looking forward to it
for weeks, but now I'd give anything not to go. Concerts seem so trivial
now...... somehow....sigh.....



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 402 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (16:38) * 24 lines 
 

Excellent summation, Beth. I've thought that for a long time. Makes them
appear even more petty in my mind. I doubt the US wants all the
countries/peoples of the world that we've help to feel beholden to us, but
at least they can act like friends rather than enemies, sniping at
everything we do.

Try factoring in a longer-term perspective. There have been many world
powers, countries whose influence has extended beyond their borders. Some
have conquered other peoples. Some only exert economic influence. These
date back to the beginning of time. The US's standing as a global power
has only been for a mere 50 years or so. Think about how long there was a
British Empire or a French empire. If our culture has overwhelmed others,
at least it is not due to military occupation.

This afternoon, while driving around, I was trying to come up with
equivalents, i.e., if the commercial jetliners had crashed into symbols of
other countries. I thought about Italy or France but could only come up
with symbols of their past.

If our so-called allies do not support us, this is one time I would
definitely advocate picking up our ball and bat and going home. Rots a
ruck.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 403 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (17:07) * 16 lines 
 

This afternoon, while driving around, I was trying to come up with
equivalents, i.e., if the commercial jetliners had crashed into symbols of
other countries. I thought about Italy or France but could only come up
with symbols of their past.
I thought of this too. The only place
would be a football match, perhaps a qualifying World Cup Match. That
thought is scary. Milan's stadium holds 84,000 people.

Italy said yesterday for example, that while they condemm the
terrorist attacks, they will not coperate with the US in any military
actions the US takes.
That was a rumour. I believe that the Italian
Gov. has stated that they will support the US with their military, planes,
ships etc. Berlusconi supports Bush and the US. Luckily, his coalition
have a majority in the Senate and the House. This would not have been the
case had the Socialist won the last election.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 404 of 783: Ann W  (amw) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (17:16) * 10 lines 
 
Moon One can have anti-american views and be appalled...

Moon, it's not just that at least not in the UK, Tony Blair has repeated
time and again in interviews that the UK Government is behind the US in
whatever it takes and I do believe that this time the UK Public is right
behind the government, urging caution, not just because of the US but for
democracy and the fact that what happened in NY could happen in London.
In fact it wasn't many years ago that the John Major cabinet in Downing
Street was attacked by Rockets fired by the IRA.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 405 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (17:41) * 4 lines 
 

Ann, I never doubted the UK's backing or Italy's for that matter. I am
more worried about France, Belgium, etc.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 406 of 783: Eileen  (EileenG) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (19:26) * 12 lines 
 

(Moon)The only place would be a football match, perhaps a qualifying
World Cup Match. That thought is scary. Milan's stadium holds 84,000
people.
But a football match, while upping the casualty toll, is not
symbolic. Two days before the WTC and Pentagon were hit, there were three
major sports events taking place within a few miles of eachother--nearly
80K at a Jets game in East Rutherford, thousands at the US Open Tennis
Tournament in Queens, and I believe the Yankees played at home in the
Bronx. Yankee Stadium holds about 60K. You've got around 175,000 people
concentrated in three easy-to-hit targets within less than 20 miles. bin
Laden wasn't going for large numbers of people.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 407 of 783: Evelyn  (lafn) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (19:49) * 8 lines 
 

Italy said yesterday for example, that while they condemm the terrorist
attacks, they will not coperate with the US in any military actions the US
takes.
At today's press conference with Secretary Powell, a
journalist told him that rumor and he denied it. Said his Italian
counterpart would be in Washington in a few days.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 408 of 783: Rob Glennie  (AotearoaKiwi) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (20:04) * 54 lines 
 
Hi all

I got BAD news for anyone worried about the Taliban response. According to
our local daily the Taliban is moving Scud missiles (the sort that hit
Israel in the Gulf War)around and has called up 20000 fighters to fight
any ground war. Are you sure you got the right targets, because God help
the Western world and anyone who fell into cahoots with the United States
if you have not. There are two kinds of war - the undeclared war like this
one where military strikes are carried out but no official declaration of
war, and a general war involving the mobilisation of the armed forces and
the cancellation of diplomatic relations by declaring war.

On to other things. Let me be absolutely clear, I am not trying to
undermine the greiving process or the determination to retaliate when I
write the following. I support the impending war insofar as the right
targets are hit and that it give the appearance of the international
coalition being united. What I do not support is an all out war (a world
war would not be impossible in this case), because I am pretty certain no
one wants mushroom clouds and radioactive darts doing a sinister ballet
across the skies. You may ask what has Colombia got to do with anything at
the moment, but have you honestly ever considered the fact that unwanted
involvement on the part of the CIA and Pentagon in places like Colombia
has fuelled the conflict there to the point that it has the capacity to
possibly engulf neighbouring countries? Or how about the International
Monetary Fund in African countries where the nebulous Multinational
Corporations that have corporate HQ in New York ply their trade at dirt
cheap rates? The IMF will not allow financial aid to these countries while
corruption and other problems are rife in them. Fair enough. But to sort
out those problems in part requires IMF help. So what does all this have
to do with anything? Well, that coupled with things like the $30 billion
National Missile Defence system and things like withdrawing from
international environmental protocols (I know that the Climate Protocol is
dogged by not knowing whether warming is cyclical or not), has a few
countries fuming (pro-US and anti-US)because they see the United States as
using them for it's own gain and every western country including New
Zealand is guilty to some extent. Still not a reason to attack the WTC,
but the faceless cowards that did probably used something like this to
justify their attack. Maybe Bush can soften his stance on trade and thing
like the environmental protocols since they are designed to protect our
offspring, and open dialogue with North Korea before Kim Il Jong decides
to restart the missile programme that crippled his nation. I may lose
some friends for this, but it is my honest opinion (one that existed well
before Bush came to power, but has come to the fore because he has it in
his power if he wants to, to change a few things). I do not advocate a
general change in foreign policy or a reduction on arms spending and
certainly don't want to open the United States to something even worse,
but I would look at a couple things long and hard.

Rob

All arguments to my e-mail. I am certain Marcia did not intend Geo to
become a warzone.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 409 of 783: suzee   (suzee202000) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (20:45) * 18 lines 
 

Do any of you know of any websites that I can tell her about, that give
out info on what supplies are still needed ? I tried the Red Cross
website, but didn't get much info.(Beth)

Here are a couple of info sites about how to help.

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101010924/help.html

http://www.helping.org/










 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 410 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (20:45) * 6 lines 
 
20,000 fighters? Is that a typo?

The $30 billion National Missile Defense system has been rendered less
relevant.

This might better be spent on counter bioterror measures.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 411 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (21:10) * 1 lines 
 
Rob, you may post anything any time in anything I have anything to do with. Your statistics are staggering. Columbia, of course!!! We have a long litany of nefarious deeds in the name of "Patriotism". Anthrax, anyone? What a horrible way to die! It will be conventional because any other kind of war will kill mankind and every other living thing... That is why I posted a ribbon on Geo's front page...


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 412 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (21:34) * 210 lines 
 
Subject: Monday morning
Date: Monday, September 17, 2001 12:57 PM
From: Womack, Jack


Yes, Monday morning.

Took longer than usual to go as far as 72nd as the local is now running on
the express tracks and the express is running on the local tracks. Have
assumed, as with everything that has so far occured, that this condition is
now permanent.

Here at work my colleague Dee Dee is back at work today; she came in with
her husband, Gavin. It's a typical story, now: he was on the 104th floor of
the South Tower. When the first plane hit the other tower three guys in his
office got up and immediately went downstairs, catching the elevator to 75
and then taking the express down. By the time the three guys got to the
lobby the second building had been hit. Her brother-in-law called her sister
twice, the second time to say smoke was filling the floor and he was on his
way down. "He fucked up," Dee Dee's brother kept saying. He was working in
the World Financial Center, across the West Side Highway from the Trade
Towers, was outside when the second plane hit. Says that dozens were
jumping, you weren't sure what they were at first. When the first tower
collapsed everybody, he said, started to run. Uncontrolled mass panic on the
part of everyone, swarming up along the river walk to the highway. (There've
been plenty of reports of injuries suffered by people trampled in the two
stampedes away from the collapsing buildings). By the time he got to the
Village, the second tower collapsed. As you might imagine he's got a
combat-level thousand yard stare; I'd forgotten but now remember older
brothers etc. looking like that, back in the late 60s and early 70s, after
they came back from Vietnam.

My neighbor, across the hall, a young Latina woman (and her seven-year-old
son) is fine, although she worked in a building across the street from the
Towers. Again, she was outside when the first one started to come down; her
particular crowd streamed eastward as far as they could go, then up. "I
guess you'll be seeing me around the apartment the next few weeks."

Friday night Valeria read what I'd written so far. "You are describing
events," she told me. "Not emotion."

And she's absolutely right. So let me say how I'm feeling this morning, and
how I've been feeling.

The first thing I want to make clear is how gratified I was to know that V
was all right, last Tuesday; how overwhelmed with happiness, how comforted.
We weren't sure we were going to see each other that day, but once the
trains to Brooklyn began, she was able to get back. We have spent as much
time as we have together, since.

I feel deeply blessed, and feel as guilty. When I think of what Ellen and
Ellie & all those of our friends who live south of 14th went through (and in
the case of Ellie, still going through; her place might not be accessible
again for weeks, at the least; she's headed up to New Hampshire.) I know we
came out very, very lucky. We came out easy, in fact.

I'm feeling terrible nostalgia for buildings that I never found attractive,
except sometimes at a distance. I think of all the times I went through the
mall underneath the towers, on my way to the PATH station to go visit
Valeria when she still lived in Jersey City. During the past three years I
became very familiar with everything down there. I remember V & I meeting
her mother down there, at the head of the escalators that went up from the
station. She'd stand and wait in front of Godiva, which was next to an HSBC
branch. I remember being down at the Border's WTC back in June (last time I
was there, in fact) when Gaiman had his tour kickoff appearance. I remember
walking with Katya & Carrie & Robert Legault across the bridge that led
between the towers & World Financial Center, en route to Ellie's apartment,
for the wake after the memorial service for Jenna, April 6. The orchid show
was going on, and the bridge and Palm Court downstairs (also destroyed,
pretty much, though the palms are still standing) were full of orchids. On
our refrigerator is a little card of a Boston bull terrier Carrie sent us a
month or so ago, thanking us for brunch; she'd bought the card in the mall
underneath with Ellie.

Any of us might have been there, and but for the grace of God, or
synchronicity, or something, we weren't. Not this time, at least. This isn't
a comforting feeling, still.

Familiar landmarks vanish constantly in NY -- they're getting ready, or have
been getting ready, to build a new Columbia building around the corner from
me at 110th where D'agostino was -- but never before have so many vanished
so quickly, so awfully. I cannot begin to imagine what the place will look
like, once it has finally been cleared.

I haven't looked at a newspaper since Saturday morning except just to
glimpse headlines & pages(I did save them, though); I haven't turned on any
of the news programming except at the request of others when they've come to
visit. The more I saw the worse I was feeling -- jittery, irritable, unable
to focus or concentrate, all the anxieties that signify low-level signs of
PTSD -- so I stopped watching. This morning I read the Daily News on the way
down, and have been keeping up with things on the Internet. I think I'm
probably able to handle print again but I'm not sure if that will last. This
weekend I ramped up my dosage of Wellbutrin (an antidepressant) from 75 mg
back to 225, and depression in some sense -- the chemical, I'd ordinarily
say, but in this case who knows? -- has lifted.

Last night, in a dream, I looked up through the sunroof of an automobile and
saw a thin dark tower three times taller than the Trade towers.

I'm terribly sad. And I'm terribly angry, and nowhere of course to strike
out with said anger. And ergo have the same sense that I suspect everyone
has, that of being buffeted by events. This of course exacerbates the
sorrow, and if turned inward, becomes depression automatically.

The emotion I'm feeling now that is the strongest and most disturbing
because newest is fear. Fear of a very particular sort.

I was just too young to consciously remember the Cuban missile crisis
(although some of my most powerful memories in my life are of the Kennedy
assassination, a year later) so have no direct familiarity with genuine,
immediate, and justified fear over ongoing current events. For years of
course we all grew up with the possibility, however remote at times it
seemed, of their being nuclear war, but that was always something at the
back of the head (although I think that fear, suspicion, call it what you
will, influenced the middle of the last century far more than has been
understood or admitted).

This, however, is a different situation. The fear of a nuclear, chemical or
biological event that *may very well, and probably will, happen,* somewhere,
if not New York. Fear that genuine, and in our new context justified, will
influence this century as greatly.

This doesn't have entirely bad effects. It may sound like a cliche, or at
least reminiscent of what our parents or grandparents have told us, but I
really haven't felt so alive in my life.

But this past weekend --- on Friday night, V & I stayed in, and friends from
across the street came over. We fixed pasta and then watched Tarkovsky's
SOLARIS, at least as far as the journey along the freeway to which you'd
alerted me. Saturday we went to Grand Central (which seems now like one of
those temporary buildings erected for the Columbian or Pan-Pacific
Expositions, looking solid though made of chicken wire and spackle) and
caught the train up to Wave Hill, a former estate on the Hudson in
Riverdale, in the Bronx. It is open, it is distant, it is beautiful, and we
had several peaceful hours there.

On the way back we walked from Grand Central down 42nd as far as 72nd &
Broadway. The main thing noticed in Times Square is that presently it's no
more crowded there than it would have been years ago; the tourists have, at
this point, mostly either left town or are at the airports waiting to get
out of town. No wonder there's less traffic, fewer people on the streets
even today, when things are about as much back in shape as they're going to
be any time soon.

Rather than having one tremendous drop-off place for flowers etc.(I gather
Union Square's is pretty good sized), there sprang up all throughout town,
at various places -- on 42nd between 6th & 7th, at the Maine Memorial on
Columbus Circle, in Riverside Park -- places where pictures of the dead were
put up, candles were left, single flowers; the shrines are spontaneous, and
of human size. (On Riverside drive, Sunday morning, three candles were left
burning just outside a delivery entrance at one of the apartment buildings.)


Sunday we had friends over for brunch -- Ellen, Carrie, Robert -- and then
went for a walk through Riverside, the drive & the park. Ran into Peter
Straub & his wife and we talked for awhile. At Fairway, a fine supermarket
at 74th, we all went our separate way for today.

It's getting harder for me to talk about what has happened, when friends
call (Judith Clute called last night). There just isn't anything more to say
about what happened; only what will happen.

I noticed that among the movies not shown this weekend as they were
scheduled to be shown (INDEPENDENCE DAY, on NBC, and I wonder if that will
ever be shown again; AIRPORT, on TCM) was GODZILLA VS. MECHAGODZILLA, on
AMC. A response equivalent to suspending 6-year olds for bringing fingernail
clippers to school, I think, but perhaps not.

The most fascinating thing about all this is that today, for the first time,
I can feel, I know, that the event has become contextualized; that we now
expect smoke in the air, train delays, the papers full of rising body counts
(though still @5,000); that the fear in the front of our heads has settled
into the middle; that the bar has been so lifted for imagination as to be
scarcely understandable, still. That these are aspects of reality that are,
now, real and therefore not as shocking in some very real way as they
initially were. But, as you were saying when you told me about the person
you knew who'd just come back from the Buddhist retreat, the event taken as
history is extremely different from the event experienced as reality.

In the eulogy I wrote for Jenna, back in March, after she died so suddenly,
I noted the following:

Borges spoke of how his father once remarked that he realized it was
impossible to remember his childhood. He had, he said, come to understand
that what he had always believed to be his memories of events, or scenes, or
people, were in fact memories only of the last time he had had the memory.
That each time the shade of the memory came to mind, its underlying
actuality receded ever further into the irretrievable past. Today we might
use the metaphor of a videotape, duped infinite times, over endless
generations, until only the blurriest outline remained of a crystalline
vision.

But the kind of memories seared into the head last week, I think, are of the
kind that remain painfully sharp, and clear. I remember my second grade
teacher clapping her hand to her face when the principal came on over the
loudspeaker and said the President had been "ambushed in Texas," and the
immediate thing that came to my mind involved cowboys, sagebrush, and
horses. I remember my mother & grandparents wandering through the house, the
TV on constantly in the background, obviously as dumbfounded as we all are
now. I remember in fact watching TV almost constantly, the black and white
blurs, the constant reiteration. I remember how it poured rain, all day,
throughout the east on Saturday, the day after the assassination. I remember
hearing my mom saying "what happened?" when Ruby shot Oswald. I remember the
drumming, all day long, on Monday; and I remember them playing Taps in the
background at the very end, around suppertime on Monday. I remember my mom
saying to my grandmother, "turn it off. Just turn it off." The TV, meaning.

In this instance too I suppose memory will offer no relief, as parts of it
will never fade.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 413 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (21:36) * 403 lines 
 
Subject: The Weekly PoliTicker
Date: Monday, September 17, 2001 9:49 AM
From: PoliticsOnline
To:

Special Edition: Analysis of the Role of the Internet and the Attack on
America

Note From: Phil Noble (phil@politicsonline.com)
President, PoliticsOnline
843 853 8190 office phone
843 296 1490 mobile

PoliticsOnline has received many calls from journalists and others about
what role the Internet is playing in the current crisis. To respond we have
1) developed this Special Report that outlines the six key points in
understanding the developments and, 2) created a special section on our web
site (www.PoliticsOnline.com) to track these developments and provide a
research and reference source.

The attack on the Pentagon is indeed ironic when we remember that it was the
Army that started it all way back in 1969 with a project called ARPNET. They
wanted to design a system that would allow computers to communicate in times
of national disaster. They were planning on missile attacks from the
Russians, not civilian airplane attacks from terrorists.

As one analyst noted, during this crisis people turned to the Internet for
what they needed and wanted, just as they began doing with the telephone
many years ago.

Recently the focus has been on the crash of the tech stocks and the success
and failures of e-commerce. This week the Internet stories were about the
technology was incorporated into the daily life of average citizens in these
extraordinary times. This week the Internet truly became The People's
Channel.

1. What the Net does best is Communications and Connections

In this crisis, the Internet did what it does best - communicating and
connecting. For those personally caught up in the crisis, it was a means of
communications when other means failed. People stranded in the World Trade
Center Towers sent e-mails and instant messages to their loved ones;
Blackberrys and pagers came through when mobile phones and land lines
failed. Hundreds of online groups formed to do all the things people wanted
to do - reach out to each other, share their grief, search for friends and
loved ones.

* NY.com (www.ny.com) created an interactive database listing survivors
from the Trade Center collapse. Within 24 hours they had 2,600 listings.

* Hundreds of people posted prayers, related prayer circles and discussions
groups on Beliefnet (www.beliefnet.com), a popular non-denominational site.

* United (www.ual.com) and American Airlines (www.americanairlines.com)
posted information and listed phone numbers for people to call looking for
more information on their crashes.

* People used Yahoo Groups to create numerous discussion groups to share
information, express grief and vent their anger.


Survivor Databases Offered by NY.Com and Prodigy (InternetNews)
Ny.com, a Web site that calls itself the "paperless guide to New York City"
and Prodigy, the national ISP, are offering interactive databases listing
survivors of Tuesday's World Trade Center collapse.
http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article/0,,3_882651,00.html

Web Offers Both News and Comfort (New York Times)
The major news Web sites were quickly overloaded. Many links to the not-so-
major news Web sites stopped working. But more than news, what people all
over the world craved in the wake of yesterday's terrorist attacks was
connection to each other, and many of them found that most easily achieved
by going online.
http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article/0,,3_882651,00.html

After Attack, the Net Reassures and Informs (USA Today)
As phone systems faltered in the aftermath of Tuesday's terrorist attack,
the nation clung to the Net, reaching out to friends and loved ones,
praying, spreading accusations and gossip, and overwhelming news and
information sites. http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/2001/09/12/more

Net Offers Lifeline Amid Tragedy (CNET)
People in New York City and around the globe turned to the Internet on
Tuesday to communicate with their families and to grasp the horrific
sequence of terrorist attacks that transformed the World Trade Center and
the Pentagon into disaster zones.
http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-7132246.html

Internet Performs Global Role, Supplementing TV (Online Journalism Review)
History expands. Terribly. In 1914, two bullets fired at an automobile
driving through the streets of Sarajevo killed the Archduke Franz Ferdinand
and Sophia, his wife. Their deaths led to World War One.
http://ojr.usc.edu/content/story.cfm?request=637

Web Acts as Hub For Info On Attacks (CNET)
Moments after airplanes separately crashed into both towers of the World
Trade Center, and then later the Pentagon, Web sites for the major news
outlets were swamped by an overflow of traffic.

http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-7129241.html

E-Mail Indispensable as Phone Systems Jam (Atlanta Journal-Constitution)
As the World Trade Center collapsed and planes plunged from the sky, sending
and receiving e-mail -- the most popular Internet activity -- became the
indispensable communication tool during the attacks. (September 12, 2001)
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/terrorism/atlanta/0911email.html

Net Helps Connect People in Distress (ZDNet)
People in New York City and around the globe turned to the Internet on
Tuesday to communicate with their families and to grasp the horrific
sequence of terrorist attacks that transformed the World Trade Center and
the Pentagon into disaster zones. (September 13, 2001)
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,5096867,00.html?chkpt=zdhpnews01

International E-mails Show Depth of Shock at Attacks (Sky News)
Everyone from city governors to newsreaders and presidents have expressed
their shock at the scenes in America. (September 11, 2001)
http://www.sky.com/skynews/storytemplate/storytoppic/0,,30000-1029113,00.html


2. The Net created a Helping Network

After connecting and communicating, the second big use of the Internet is
helping - people reaching out to help in any way that they can. The ability
for instant response is one of the greatest strengths of the Internet and
the crisis is a perfect demonstration of the potential. Within minutes of
the first reports sites were set up to provide mechanisms for people to
help.

* Amazon (www.amazon.com) converted its first page into an appeal for help
to its 35 million customers. According to a ticker on their site, by 3pm
Friday 128, 000 people had contributed $4.7 million.

* Numerous sites linked to the American Red Cross (www.redcross.org) site
that was reporting 50 million individual visits within the first day. In
addition to taking contributions and directing people where to go to give
blood, they also provided extensive news coverage about relief efforts.

* AOL/Time Warner and their Foundation are using their many channels to
direct people, most notably their effective Helping section
(www.helping.org) that became a pop-up window on AOL's front page.

* MSNBC (www.msnbc.com) and others are using their site to promote relief
efforts with on-screen solicitations to various organizations as well as
separate banner ads for such organizations as the Salvation Army.

* Members of Congress eager to get involved are also using their sites to
channel people's efforts. George Washington University's Democracy Online
Project (www.congressonlineproject.org) distributed a special edition of
their newsletter on how members of Congress can use their sites to help.


America Under Attack: How to Help (MSNBC)
To help the victims, offer tips to the police or get information on loved
ones, check the provided links. (September 14, 2001)
http://www.msnbc.com/news/627095_asp.htm?0cm=c30

Web Sites Take Red Cross Donations (MSNBC)
Web site operators, including Yahoo and Amazon.com, have set up virtual
donation baskets to collect relief funds in the wake of horrific attacks on
New York and Washington, D.C. More than 40,000 people had contributed over
$1 million on Amazon.com by Wednesday afternoon.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/627761.asp

Make A Difference On The Net (ABC News)
Web site operators including online retail giant Amazon.com Inc. have set up
virtual donation baskets to collect relief funds in the wake of horrific
attacks on New York and Washington, D.C.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/wtc_onlinecontributions010912.html


3. The Technology Worked

Unquestionably, this week was the biggest test to date of the Internet in
its 32-year history - and it worked. It creaked and it groaned; it was often
slow and congested; a few major sites went down, but only briefly. In short
- it worked. As Tim Blair of the Online Journalism Review noted, "Princess
Diana's car crash and Bill Clinton's Oval Office follies suddenly seem minor
markers in the evolution of the Net..." Most communications networks, of
almost any type, were swamped with unprecedented traffic.

* For a recap of website response time for the major news sites, see
PoliticsOnline's Key Stats
(http://www.politicsonline.com/pol2000/tragedy/tragedy.asp).

* Many sites had to add additional servers or stripped down their pages so
that they would load faster.

* The day of the attacks, CNN reported 9 million hits per hour as compared
to its usual daily average of 11 million. CNN received offers of excess
server capacity from several US and international companies. CNN executive
producer Mitch Gelman said they declined the offer but he took down their
number just in case.

* MSNBC reported a ten-fold increase in traffic and many international sites
such as the BBC reported record numbers.

* Cingular Wireless, the second largest US wireless carrier reported a 400%
increase in calls attempted in the Washington area and 1000% in New York.

* The nation's largest long distance company, ATT, had twice the normal
workday traffic.


Internet Lessons Will Be Learned From U.S. Attacks (Washingtonpost.com)
Although the events of this terrible week will probably never be forgotten,
the disaster recovery issues that companies have had to face in the
aftermath of the multiple disasters across the U.S. will help firms and
organizations in the future, an Internet expert said today.
http://www.newsbytes.com/news/01/170053.html

High-Tech Industry Plods On In Wake of Attacks (Washingtonpost.com)
Technology companies across the country opened for business today as
industry leaders vowed not to be paralyzed by the terrorist attacks that
struck the Pentagon and World Trade Center on Tuesday.
http://www.newsbytes.com/news/01/170023.html

Internet Buckles Under Demand for Attack News (CNN)
Internet traffic buckled and major Web sites were jammed as surfers crowded
online for details on the airplane attacks in New York and Washington D.C.
http://asia.cnn.com/2001/BUSINESS/asia/09/11/ny.internetcrumbles/index.html

Internet Traffic Soars Following U.S. Attacks (Reuters)
Internet news traffic soared on Tuesday following attacks on the World Trade
Center in New York and the Pentagon in Washington, D.C., slowing retrieval
times on popular Web news sites and forcing online publishers to cut back on
graphics and interactive features. (September 13, 2001)
http://www.reuters.com/fullstory.jsp?type=internetnews&StoryID=212755

Internet Reacts to America Under Attack (U.S. News)
As America reacts to apparent terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center,
the Pentagon, and other possible targets, millions turn to the Web for
information.
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/misc/internet.htm

News Sites Endure Overload After Attack (CBS News)
Devastating attacks on the U.S. strained and brought down the nation's
leading news Web sites on Tuesday as millions of people logged on to catch
the latest updates hitting the Internet. (September 11, 2001)
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/yhoo/story.asp?source=blq/yhoo&siteid=yhoo&d%20ist=yhoo&guid=%7B4994600C%2D3ACC%2D4A3A%2DAF5B%2D1F91B6BC0067%7D

Traffic Jams Internet In Wake of Attacks (Nando Times)
Internet traffic slowed and major news Web sites were slow to load as people
craving details on Tuesday morning's World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks
went online. http://www.nandotimes.com/technology/story/77130p-1082111c.html

Scrambling for News (ABC News)
A rush of Internet users seeking the latest news on the series of attacks on
buildings in the United States snarled major European news sites today.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/WTC_internet010911.html

Tech Sites Pick Up the News (Wired)
Personalized Internet radio stations and technology websites abandoned their
normal news-delivery operations as major Internet media outlets wilted under
the crush of traffic following Tuesday's attacks in New York and Washington.
http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,46716,00.html


4. The Net as a Tool of Investigation

Almost immediately after the attack, the FBI and other law enforcement
people turned to the Internet for help in tracking down the terrorist and
thoes who support them. For the first time, they used the Net as a tool of
investigation and called upon people to use the net to respond, and respond
they did from all parts of the US and around the world. Also, in an action
that is sure to draw a response (even if delay for a while) from privacy
advocates, the FBI stepped up monitoring of email traffic.

* Attorney General John Ashcroft asked people to send information to the FBI
online through The Internet Fraud Complaint Center site (www.ifccfbilgov).
The site had received only about 10,000 complaints since it was established
last year and the response crashed the site. It was still down as of late
Friday afternoon.

* The FBI issued search warrants to some of the nation's largest ISP's to
get information on email address and other information about suspected
terrorist and their communications. AOL, Microsoft, Yahoo, Earthlink, and
Excite@Home were all contacted and are cooperating.

* The FBI has been installing "Carnivores" (now renamed DCS1000) which are
Fed computers that are placed at an ISP's core to electronically monitor the
ISP's electronic communications.


Scouring Cyberspace for Clues on Attack (ABC News)
In the effort to find those responsible for the horrific terrorist attacks
on America, the FBI is searching everywhere - including cyberspace - for
clues.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/WTC_netsearch010913.html

FBI Utilizing Internet for Clues (Nando Times)
The FBI is issuing search warrants to major Internet service providers to
get information about an e-mail address believed to be connected to
Tuesday's terrorist attacks.
http://www.nandotimes.com/technology/story/77995p-1092583c.html

FBI Web Site Overwhelmed (MSNBC)
Attorney General John Ashcroft asked that anyone with information about
terrorist attacks contact the FBI via a Web site - but that site was jammed
within seconds of Ashcroft's announcement Tuesday night and has been
inaccessible since.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/627693.asp?0si=-


5. Cyber Security - Electronic Pearl Harbor

To date there does not seem to have been a cyber-attack on companies or the
government in coordination with the attack in New York and Washington. But,
it is widely expected to happen at some time if not now. The warning and
alarm bells about our vulnerability to an electronic Pearl Harbor have
filled the tech press since the attack.

* Terrorist organizations are noted for their skill in using the Internet
and communications technology in general. NewsFactor Network reported
"Experts say that terrorists have made a practice of putting encrypted
messages, including maps of targets, inside seemingly innocent internet chat
rooms, bulletin boards and other web sites."

* Some new sites report that cyber activist sites are calling for cyber-
counter attacks on sites of governments friendly to known terrorist groups.

* Internet security sites and related security company sites have reported a
dramatic increase in contacts from business seeking help with protecting
their site and companies from a possible attack.


Cybersecurity Seriousness Escalates (Federal Computer Week)
A Senate hearing originally scheduled to examine the security of the
critical cyber infrastructure took on extra meaning as Congress and the
nation attempted to respond to Tuesday's terrorist attacks.
http://www.fcw.com/fcw/articles/2001/0910/web-sec-09-13-01.asp

How Terrorists Use the Internet (NewsFactor Network)
The same advantages the Internet and advanced technology bring to the
general public and to business -- speed, security and global linkage -- are
helping international terrorist groups organize their deadly and disruptive
activities. http://www.newsfactor.com/perl/story/7731.html

U.S. Attack: Companies Warned About Possible Cyber Attacks (InfoWorld)
Government and private-sector security experts fear that Tuesday's attacks
against the World Trade Center and the Pentagon are only the beginning of a
wave of assaults that could include cyberterrorism.
http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/01/09/12/010912hncyber.xml

Companies Urged to Prepare for Cyber Terrorism (Industry Standard)
Government and private-sector security officials warn that the attacks
against the World Trade Center and the Pentagon may be followed by a wave
cyberterrorist assaults.
http://www.thestandard.com/article/0,1902,28947,00.html?nl=mg


6. The Dark Side Emerges: Hate, Scams and Sickos

"The Internet, like American society itself, is a virtual reflection of the
best and worst that humanity has to offer, say reporters for internet.com -
and they are right. The disaster has brought the rats out of the sewers and
they are spamming the Net with phony contribution come-ons and spewing
racist bile.

* Anti-Arab hate speech was the first to surface. Sites related to Arab
groups or simply those of some of the ordinary 7 million Americans of Arab
descent have been targets both online and offline.

* So-called Christian evangelist Jerry Falwell linked the attack to the
ACLU, gays, pro-choice activist and those who wanted to ban school prayer.

* Numerous scams to get credit card donations in the name of the tragedy
have been launched; many use the name of the Red Cross and other reputable
organizations.

* Some people tried to sell pieces of the rubble and other "souvenirs" of
the disaster on E-Bay. The company has since barred any such sales.

* A video game called WTC Defender has appeared where users can shoot down
planes flying toward the twin towers.


Scam Artists Capitalize On Tragedy (MSNBC)
Consumer protection advocates are warning Internet users that scam artists
are trying to take advantage of Tuesday's terrorist attacks.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/628230_asp.htm

Growing Number of Internet Scams Mar Relief Efforts (InternetNews)
The Internet, like American society itself, is a virtual reflection of the
best and worst that humanity has to offer.
http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article/0,,3_884031,00.html

Web Vents Open on U.S. Muslims (Wired)
As the volume of anti-Arab hate speech on the Internet cranked to full blast
Wednesday, U.S. Muslims reported rampant harassment on- and offline.
http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,46778,00.html

"Purge Our Society," Online Bigots Shout (Salon)
While most online reactions have focused on expressions of emotional support
and pleas for calm, there is also evidence that in many online communities,
Muslim-Christian relations already are breaking down -- as posters, assuming
the attacks are the work of Islamic radicals, lash out.
http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2001/09/11/net_hate/index.html



Whew!



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 414 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (21:55) * 63 lines 
 
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:18:52 -0700
From: William Meyers
To: terry@spring.net, paul@spring.net
Subject: more

Paul,

Here's another fragment:



As soon as we got to work that morning word went around that a plane had
crashed into the World Trade Center -- and soon after that, another one.
Then the rumor took flight that there were five more hijacked airliners
in the air. There was the distinct thought in the collective mind that
at any moment we could be vaporized too -- that so far we were simply
among the lucky ones, and no different from those whose luck had just
run out.

I took a walk around midtown Manhattan at mid-day, through the herds of
people streaming up the avenues and through the park toward their uptown
apartments -- strangely silent and subdued, preoccupied and fearful,
many stopping off and lining up at their ATMs to tank up for future
uncertainties. Down at the end of Sixth and Fifth Avenues, where the
twin towers used to be, a thick volcanic cloud of smoke and ash was
roiling up in a dome -- falling like a gray snow on downwind Brooklyn
later in the afternoon.

All the cops you could see were already wearing flak jackets -- not a
one without one -- and carrying shotguns. Hundreds of firefighters and
medical rescuers were killed after the first blast when rushing to help
-- that was the most disturbing part. Not that the thought of those poor
people trapped in those planes was any less disturbing.

I was in my office most of the day, listening to people's radios and
checking the Internet bulletins/images on my computer. We knew our
building could just as easily have been on fire and crumbling to the
ground. It was a day of palpable grief, most of those who showed up
leaving early, and work moving along at close to a standstill -- very
heavy emotions welling up in everyone. "It could just as easily have
been me" was the prevailing compassionate thought for all the victims.
heavy emotions welling up in everyone. "It could just as easily have
been me" was the prevailing compassionate thought for all the victims.

At any rate, enough fear and grief was inflicted to keep the anguished
and vengeful spirits who perpetrated the deed happy in their disembodied
misery. What did they prove, though, but that even at the Pentagon
they're just another bunch of vulnerable protoplasmic beings wishing
they were happy.

Luckily we had made our reservations for another round-trip flight to
San Francisco just the day before -- we couldn't have managed it any
later. They were for a Thanksgiving trip. Maybe by then we'll start to
feel better again about flying.




There's a new, more explicit message from the Dalai Lama today, calling
for a nonviolent response to the tragic events. But I can't send that on
to you until tomorrow.

Wm


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 415 of 783: suzee   (suzee202000) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (23:13) * 57 lines 
 

Italy said yesterday for example, that while they condemm the terrorist
attacks, they will not coperate with the US in any military actions the US
takes.


It wasn't exactly a rumour - maybe a partial misquote:

Italian defence minister rules out Italian troop role ROME, Sept 16 (AFP)
-

Italian Defense Minister Antonio Martino on Sunday said Italian troops
would not take part in any US retaliation after the terror attacks and
that use of the term "war" was inappropriate.

"The term 'war' is inappropriate. It is not a conflict between states and
Italian troops will not go anywhere," Martino told the RAI television
station. "I feel I am in a position to categorically exclude calling on
the army," he said.

The defence minister warned that "nobody had better strike randomly,"
adding that 100,000 Italian soldiers were involved in various peacekeeping
missions abroad.

He said the US would certainly take military action once the perpetrators
of the attacks on the World Trade Center in New York and Pentagon had been
identified, and only then "will we see what we are called upon to do."

Asked about Saudi-born extremist Osama bin Laden's role in the attacks,
Martino said "the idea that one man is behind this tragedy is misguided."

In an interview with the daily Il Messaggero published Sunday, Martino
urged the US not to act alone in the event of a military operation.
_________________

Monday, 17 September, 2001, 09:01 GMT 10:01 UK Italy ready to retaliate
against terrorists

The Italian defence minister has made it clear that his armed forces are
ready to take part in any action that may be agreed in retaliation against
the attacks on the United States.

The minister, Antonio Martino, told the BBC that he was misquoted when he
appeared to have suggested yesterday Sunday that no Italian troops would
take part in such operations.

Mr Martino said that intelligence would first have to show clearly who the
real culprits were, but once that was done, Italy's commitment would be
total and absolute.

From the newsroom of the BBC World Service








 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 416 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Mon, Sep 17, 2001 (23:34) * 4 lines 
 

I am beginning to burn out on this. I put a ribbon on my front page
(Geo's) Please feel free to borrow it for wherever you wish to place it.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 417 of 783: Rob Glennie  (AotearoaKiwi) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (01:41) * 34 lines 
 
Hi all

IT IS WAR. OFFICIAL. THE TALIBAN HAS DECLARED A HOLY WAR IN AFGHANISTAN AGAINST THE UNITED STATES. 20000 FIGHTERS STAND READY TO DIE FOR WHAT THEY PERCEIVE TO BE A GREATER CAUSE AND WHAT WE PERCEIVE TO BE MADNESS.

Source: Television One New Zealand. See http://www.stuff.co.nz for more on the
New Zealand coverage.

I absolutely had to post this for everyone to read. See more at Stuff.co.nz - Canterbury (not sure where under Canterbury it will get posted). It was written by a nine year old school boy and featured on the front page of the Press edition for September 18, 2001.

by Charles MacDonald, a pupil at Mount Pleasant Primary School

In America on a Tuesday morning
An EVIL force struck without warning
Planes hit the buildings, people screamed
A terrible accident so it seemed
The towers and Pentagon both took hits
The 1st tower fell and smashed to bits.
The terrified bystanders choked by the smoke
While the Palestinians thought it a joke
Reality of it all came clear
As another plane smashed in the middle of nowhere
The fear and drama continued hour after hour
As down came the 2nd tower
The attack had cost many lives
Heart-broken men cry for their wives.
We DON'T want war but PEACE instead only to feel safe in our bed.

Rob








 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 418 of 783: Rob Glennie  (AotearoaKiwi) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (02:01) * 5 lines 
 
Sorry my friends, but this appears to be war. The Taliban has said ANYONE HARBOURING UNITED STATES BASES ARE ALSO ON THE HIT LIST.

Marcia, dear, the drumbeat of Mars is getting louder, the brass is getting more and more menacing. I for once think the possibility of a big Middle East war involving EVERYONE is not so far of after all.

Rob


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 419 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (08:42) * 52 lines 
 
More from William Meyers

CALCUTTA, India, Sept 17 (Reuters) - Tibet's exiled spiritual leader the
Dalai Lama urged the United States on Monday not to respond militarily to
last week's devastating attacks, saying only nonviolence could combat
international terrorism.

"While I express my sympathy, I have appealed to the U.S. president not
to respond with more violence as violence is not an appropriate answer,"
the Tibetan Buddhist leader told a news conference in Calcutta.

The Dalai Lama fled from his homeland to India with thousands of
followers in 1959, nine years after the Chinese army entered Tibet and
overthrew the Buddhist theocracy there.

The 1989 Nobel Peace Prize laureate's comments came after Pope John Paul
appealed on Sunday to the world not to allow the attacks on New York and
Washington to lead to more violence, and not to allow "a spiral of hate
and violence" to prevail. The United States has pledged to avenge the
attacks by hijacked airliners that slammed into the twin towers of New
York's World Trade Center and the Pentagon near Washington last Tuesday.

NONVIOLENCE ONLY ANSWER

"Most cases of violence only cause destruction...these things will have
to be prevented the nonviolent way. Only nonviolent means can counter
terrorism in the long-term," the Dalai Lama said.

The United States has said Islamic militant Osama bin Laden, harbored by
Afghanistan's Taliban rulers, was the prime suspect behind the attacks in
which some 5,000 people were killed or are missing. Bin Laden, a
44-year-old multimillionaire, has denied he was responsible, saying
Afghanistan would not permit it.

The Dalai Lama said he believed there were numerous causes for the
attacks.

"Every event has many causes...you can't just pick up one individual --
Osama bin Laden -- and say he was responsible. That is not realistic,"
said the Dalai Lama, whose exiled government accuses China of repression
in Tibet.

"The economic gap between the rich and poor nations is one factor (that
could have been responsible)," he said.

But the Dalai Lama said the attacks could not have been sanctified by any
religion.

"The essence of all major religions is compassion, forgiveness,
contentment, self-discipline and brotherhood," he said. "Some people may
only be using the name of religion to justify their actions."



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 420 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (09:19) * 16 lines 
 

"Niaz Naik, a former Pakistani Foreign Secretary, was told by senior
American officials in mid-July that military action against Afghanistan
would go ahead by the middle of October."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1550000/1550366.stm

That's not the only rumour coming out of Pakistan :

"Reuters news agency quoted a Pakistani army captain as saying the
Taliban had moved a large number of weapons, including missiles, to
positions near the Pakistani border."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1549000/1549700.stm



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 421 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (09:53) * 1 lines 
 
Who would've ever thought watching Dave Letterman would be a gut-wrenching experience as it was last night. And to see Dan Rather break down twice. Really makes you wonder how those newscasters have managed over the past week. It's apparent to me that, in working 18+ hrs a day, they've been unable to deal with it on a personal level.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 422 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (10:18) * 17 lines 
 
Dan Rather is human. He's 70 years old.

Taliban declares a jihad against the US:



"I would like to tell my people that our jihad will be formally resuming
against the Americans," the deputy chairman of the Taliban Council of
Ministers, Mullah Mohammad Hasan Akhond, said in a speech broadcast late on
Monday.

Akhond said it was unimaginable that the "terror attacks" against the World
Trade Center and the Pentagon had been committed by the Taliban or by Osama
bin Laden.

Also from MSNBC:


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 423 of 783: Toyce   (toyce) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (11:03) * 1 lines 
 
This is just a subjective thought on my part, but I feel strongly about this. I think that bin Laden has a politcal agenda that is much larger than just getting the US out of the Middle East region. He's using religion to "cloak" that agenda. Has anyone thought what he might do if his first objective was ever realized? I think he would then turn his "holy wrath" to Middle Eastern governments who did not agree with him. The first one would probably be Saudi Arabia, since he is supposedly persona non grata there. I feel that his utlimate aim is to create a Middle Eastern theorcracy with himself, his son, or lieutenants at the helm.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 424 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (11:17) * 10 lines 
 
I disagree, Toyce. This is Jihad. And it is against the West.

The Italian defence minister has made it clear that his armed forces are
ready to take part in any action that may be agreed in retaliation against
the attacks on the United States.

Is Italy the first allied country to offer this? Where are the other allies?

Bin Laden has many cells in Europe. The French intelligence discovered a plan to blow up the Eiffel Tower recently and where able to stop it. As Karen has said, in Europe there are many buildings that they could blow up but not as many people would die because they are not skyscapers. The Vatican on Sunday when the Pope holds his outdoor mass. That would be disastrous. Italy is on high alert.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 425 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (11:29) * 6 lines 
 
Terry, you miss my point.

(Moon) As Karen has said, in Europe there are many buildings that they could blow up but not as many people would die because they are not skyscapers.
You also miss my point.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 426 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (11:37) * 2 lines 
 
You also miss my point.
It's two against one, Karen. ;-) So will you leave us hanging?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 427 of 783: rachael  (rachael) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (12:29) * 3 lines 
 
re toyce's comment, I read one explanation about Bin Laden's actions that said something like (and I paraphrase) its not as simple as a Holy War because he's not just anti the west, he's anti other Muslim nations who don't agree with his particular brand of totalitarianism. Dunno if that's right, but it does make a bit of sense in the light of his exile from Saudi Arabia.

the thing that puzzles me is, he's said to be so phenomenally rich, where did all that dosh come from? And maybe I'm being dim here, but isn't a contradiction in terms to be a multi-millionaire and be anti capitalism?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 428 of 783: Toyce   (toyce) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (12:32) * 3 lines 
 
Rachael.

I doubt he can explain it either.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 429 of 783: Eileen  (EileenG) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (12:44) * 4 lines 
 
(Moon) As Karen has said, in Europe there are many buildings that they could blow up but not as many people would die because they are not skyscapers.
(Karen) You also miss my point.

I get your point. Moon, did you see my last post? These terrorists were not merely after mass casualties.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 430 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (13:08) * 2 lines 
 
Moon, did you see my last post?
I did. And I agree with you, Eileen. The Twin Towers were a symbol as the Eiffel Tower and the Vatican are. Had the Twin Towers been struck later in the day the casulaties would have been higher. I do think that countries would have a stroger reaction to deaths of their citizens rather than the destruction of a symbolic building empty. The worse case is for both at once as in the Twin Towers or God forbid, the outdoor mass at the Vatican. Hugh stadiums in Europe have also become symbols and that is why I used that example yesterday.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 431 of 783: Beth  (Bethanne) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (14:16) * 5 lines 
 
Europe may not have as many huge skyscrapers as we do over here, but they do have some. A hit on Canary Wharf in London for example, would probably result in thousands of deaths. However, to Londoners, that is just a very tall building. It lacks the national symolism that a hit on something like Buckingham Palace would have.

Jeez, I can't believe I am sitting here calming talking about blowing up buildings as if I'm playing battleships or something....this is all very weird.

Rachael....bin Laden is the son of a Saudi construction billionaire. His father was the Donald Trump of the Arab world in the 40's and 50's and is/was filthy rich. His family in Saudi Arabia have apparantly long since disowned him, but we presume he was still able to get his hands on some of the family loot, to use for his evil purposes.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 432 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (14:35) * 4 lines 
 
Quite right, Eileen and Beth, the targets had to be symbolic (financial evils or government evils), with loss of life secondary. That's why the Eiffel Tower hardly qualifies or a mere football stadium.

(Moon) Had the Twin Towers been struck later in the day the casulaties would have been higher.
Ensuring the timing of the attack was first and foremost, as opposed to hitting the towers at peak occupancy. They did that by using the first transcontinental flights of the day where the likelihood of delays was minimized. All the planes had to be in the air at approximately the same time and not sitting on runways waiting for approval to take off.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 433 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (14:49) * 2 lines 
 
Rob, thanks for your eloquence as usual. Nothing is as deadly as a "holy War" whhx makes it so terrifying. From the crusdades onward ([probably before that, too) we have fought over which of Abraham's sons was his rightful heir. We have missed God in all this infighting. Tha same Father but human sons who continue to perpetuate animosity and death in His name. The West will certainly suffer.
What can be done other than arguing with former friends and wringing hands. It is not time to be divisive. Surely our survival supercedes all the little dlaws one sees in the other's interpretations of all that is too horrible to contemplate. God help us even if you don't believe...


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 434 of 783: Eileen  (EileenG) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (15:18) * 4 lines 
 
(Karen) All the planes had to be in the air at approximately the same time and not sitting on runways waiting for approval to take off.
Yet for all their in-depth research, the terrorists couldn't get the flight from Newark in the air with the others. It pulled away from the gate at 8-ish (same as the other flights) but waited in line for takeoff for more than 30 mins. This type of delay is so common at EWR one has to wonder if this was built into their plan or if it had an effect on the outcome. I get a strange sense of comfort from the latter.

I also read or heard early flights were likely selected because they were relatively empty--less passengers to control.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 435 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (16:24) * 2 lines 
 
(Karen), That's why the Eiffel Tower hardly qualifies
That is a symbol of the industrial revolution, which in a sense started us on this Godless path. I would say it is a symbol.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 436 of 783: suzee   (suzee202000) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (17:11) * 297 lines 
 
(Moon)Is Italy the first allied country to offer this? Where are the other allies?


This is long, but an excellent round-up of countries and reactions.

Key Nations' Reactions to Attacks

Tuesday September 18 9:32 AM ET
Countries Take Action on US Attacks
By The Associated Press,

International actions and events connected with the U.S. campaign to find and punish those responsible for attacks on New York and Washington.

EUROPE:
-
ALBANIA: Declared it stood on the side of the United States and its Western allies in the fight against terrorism, offered use of Albanian airspace, ports and airports to the United States and its allies.
-
AUSTRIA: Chancellor Wolfgang Schuessel said his country would allow the use of Austrian airspace and provide whatever support it can, but Austrian soldiers would not become involved in military action because that is banned by Austria's constitution.
-
BELARUS: President Alexander Lukashenko, who had often lashed out at the United States, sent his condolences to the American people. Belarus did not join Russia and other European nations in observing a moment of silence last week, and some officials said the terror attacks had been prompted by arrogant U.S. policies.
-
BELGIUM: Organized an anti-terrorist sweep following the attacks, holding two suspects on charges of possible involvement in planning an attack on U.S. interests in Europe. As current president of the European Union (news - web sites), it has also played host to emergency meetings of EU foreign ministers to show support for the United States.
-
BOSNIA: Stepped up security for U.S. citizens and property. ``This country will offer any kind of assistance the United States government may ask for,'' said Foreign Ministry spokesman Amer Kapetanovic.
-
BRITAIN: Urged its citizens to leave parts of Pakistan amid fears that U.S. retaliation might target neighboring Afghanistan (news - web sites). Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites), who has pledged British support for U.S. action against the terrorists, called President Bush (news - web sites)'s handling of the attack and its aftermath ``absolutely right'' and praised the U.S. administration's consultations with allies.

BRITAIN: The Bank of England cut its key lending rate by 0.25 percentage points to 4.75 percent as part of a coordinated global effort to boost consumer borrowing and spending in the wake of last week's terrorist attacks. Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites) spoke by telephone with Chinese President Jiang Zemin (news - web sites) in an effort to build support for international action.

BULGARIA: Prime Minister Simeon Saxcoburggotski pledged support for an international campaign against terror. Foreign Minister Solomon Pasi said his country, which is applying for NATO (news - web sites) membership, was ``ready to act as a (virtual) NATO ally'' in the campaign.

-CROATIA: Supports United States against terrorism. However, Prime Minister Ivica Racan expressed concerns Monday that the European Union countries may now seek to impose tougher measures on their borders to prevent entry of potential terrorists, isolating non-members, including Croatia.

CZECH REPUBLIC: Security was increased at the country's airports and other sensitive points such as nuclear power plants and dams. All unscheduled flights were forbidden. The government expressed its full support to the United States for military action against the terrorists.

- DENMARK: As a NATO member, Denmark supports a joint action against terrorism, and the government asked intelligence agencies to track down possible supporters in Denmark.

The Faeroe Islands and Greenland, both semiautonomous Danish territories, sent letters of condolence late Tuesday and held two minutes of silence on Friday.
-
ESTONIA: Was quick to condemn the airborne attacks, and the Foreign Ministry said the nation was ``prepared to provide to the United States any assistance within the scope of its capabilities.'' Estonia and its Baltic neighbors Latvia and Lithuania also expressed concerns that the crisis might put NATO enlargement on the back burner.

FINLAND: Has beefed up security at borders, airports and outside embassies and increased air surveillance. Prime Minister Paavo Lipponen said ``the likelihood of terrorist attacks against Finland or Finnish targets abroad is very small.''
-
FRANCE: Defense Minister Alain Richard said France was confident the United States would react responsibly to last week's terror attacks, but he cautioned against using force alone to retaliate. ``We must use it in a way that doesn't provoke other elements of instability,'' he said.
-
GEORGIA: Officials have said they were ready to offer any help to the United States in its efforts to find and punish the perpetrators of the attacks.
-
GERMANY: Interior Minister Otto Schily called for a review of ``our entire intelligence strategy'' after three men who lived quietly in Hamburg for years were implicated in the terror attacks in the United States.
-
GREECE: Pledged its full support to American and European Union actions to combat terrorism. Greece plays host to a large U.S. Navy (news - web sites) base on the island of Crete. Ministers and officials have also begun re-evaluating security measures for the 2004 Olympics, to be held in Athens.
-
HUNGARY: Expressed solidarity with the people of the United States and full support for the fight against terrorism. ``The essential thing is that the political readiness is there; we are supportive of the victims and will do our part in the struggle to eradicate terrorism,'' Foreign Minister Janos Martonyi said.
-
ICELAND: Foreign Minister Halldor Asgrimsson said the airport at Keflavik was available for any U.S. operations.
-
IRELAND: Prime Minister Bertie Ahern has said America would be justified in retaliating, so long as the military action fell within the United Nations (news - web sites)' definition of self-defense. He said a large-scale attack on Afghanistan would be wrong: ``It's an easy thing to bomb territories where people are in famine. But that will not do much to crush international terrorism.''
-
ITALY: Has vowed an ``all-out battle against terrorist organizations,'' adding, ``we must concentrate our forces now in the Atlantic Alliance ... and the European Union.'' Italy's Supreme Defense Council - consisting of the country's president, prime minister and top Cabinet ministers - convened an emergency session Friday for the first time since Libya fired missiles toward the Sicilian island of Lampedusa in 1986.
-
LATVIA - Condemned the attacks, and has said it will back any U.S. response. Defense forces were put on alert and security was tightened around the U.S. and Israeli embassies.
-
LIECHTENSTEIN: The Banking Federation said it will consider setting up a task force to investigate whether the country's financial institutions were used by anyone with terrorist links, but it says there is no evidence of this so far.
-
LITHUANIA - President Valdas Adamkus, a former American citizen, was visiting Washington during the attacks and spoke on national television about seeing the Pentagon (news - web sites) burn. He said his countrymen had to think about how they could aid the United States. ``Until now, we have always tended to think only that America needed to protect us,'' Adamkus said.
-
THE NETHERLANDS: Dutch police, with the Belgians, stepped up a joint operation against suspected members of Muslim radical groups. Rotterdam police took four men into custody on Thursday. Prime Minister Wim Kok, while lending full support to the fight against terrorism, was one of the first to caution the U.S. administration to be mindful of ``democratic values.''
-
NORWAY: Strongly condemned ``evil put into a system'' and backs its ally the United States through NATO.
-
POLAND: President Aleksander Kwasniewski and Prime Minister Jerzy Buzek have appealed for a concerted international effort in fighting terrorism, and pledged to fully participate in any NATO action.
-
PORTUGAL: Has pledged total cooperation with the United States in all areas, including military support for a retaliation. Portugal next year takes over the presidency of the 55-nation Organization for Security and Cooperation (news - web sites) in Europe and says the fight against international terrorism will be a priority. Portugal has tightened security at airports, embassies and U.S. companies.
-
SLOVAKIA: Prime Minister Mikulas Dzurinda has condemned the terrorist attacks and expressed Slovakia's determination to support the United States and NATO in all actions against terrorism around the world.
-
SLOVENIA: President Milan Kucan, in a letter to the U.S. president, declared his country's support in the fight against terrorism.
-
SPAIN: Defense Minister Federico Trillo said U.S. forces could use Spanish military bases for any retaliation.
-
SWEDEN: Swedish Prime Minister Goeran Persson canceled the so-called Progressive Summit of 14 center-left leaders that was to have been held in Stockholm on Sept. 14-15. The Swedish government also has expressed concerns about a backlash against Muslims, meeting with Islamic leaders and stepping up security around Stockholm's mosque.
-
SWITZERLAND: Switzerland, which had already frozen all bank accounts linked to Afghanistan's ruling Taliban, said one of the suspected hijackers of the planes used in Tuesday's attacks bought two knives in Switzerland using a credit card. One Osama bin Laden (news - web sites)'s many siblings, a half-brother who has distanced himself from the exile Saudi, has lived in Geneva since 1973.
-
TURKEY: Would allow the use of Incirlik air base for a possible military response. Incirlik is the base used by U.S. and British warplanes enforcing a no-fly zone over northern Iraq and was a launching pad for U.S. attacks on Iraq during the Gulf War (news - web sites).
-
RUSSIA: Russian President Vladimir Putin (news - web sites) ordered a nationwide moment of silence for victims of the attacks, offered help in rescue efforts and called for a global effort to uproot international terrorism. At the same time, Russia, where one of every seven residents is Muslim, is unlikely to risk internal unrest by joining any U.S. retaliation. Russian officials have also made it clear that Moscow does not want former Soviet republics in Central Asia to be used as bases for such operations.
-
UKRAINE: Called for a coordinated international fight against terrorism. The parliament called the attacks on the United States a ``challenge to all of civilized humanity.''
-
YUGOSLAVIA: Leaders declared support for a global fight against terrorism. But with memories of the 1999 NATO air war against Yugoslavia still fresh, officials have not openly supported a possible U.S. campaign against suspected perpetrators.

AFRICA=

ANGOLA: Condemned the attacks and expressed its sympathy with the victims' families. Elite police were stationed outside the U.S. Embassy in Luanda.
-
BURKINA FASO - President Blaise Compaore expressed sympathy for the American people. ``Burkina Faso condemns these terrorist attacks in the same way it condemns all forms of terrorism,'' he said.
-
BURUNDI - President Pierre Buyoya expressed his condolences to all Americans, especially those living in Burundi.
-
CAMEROON - President Paul Biya sent a letter to President Bush offering condolences over ``the horrifying tragedy.'' Security has been tightened around Western diplomatic missions in Cameroon, with traffic diverted around the U.S. Embassy.
-
CENTRAL AFRICAN REPUBLIC - The government condemned the attacks and sent two Cabinet ministers to sign a condolence book at the U.S. Embassy. Security has been tightened at the embassy and at the international airport.
-
ETHIOPIA: Offered condolences and condemned the attack.
-
GHANA: Said it was ready to help hunt down those responsible. ``We consider the attacks as a strike against humanity and civilization all over the world,'' Foreign Affairs Minister Hackman Owusu-Agyemang said.
-
GUINEA: President Lansana Conte expressed sympathy over the attacks on a visit to the U.S. Embassy, where security was tightened.
-
IVORY COAST - President Laurent Gbagbo condemned ``with the utmost firmness these acts, which no human reason could possibly justify.'' Security was tightened at the U.S. Embassy and extra soldiers deployed at the international airport.
-
KENYA - President Daniel arap Moi offered condolences, but appealed for restraint. Security at Nairobi's main airport was tightened. Moi said Kenya would join the international fight against terrorism because of the U.S. Embassy bombing in Kenya in 1998.
-
LIBERIA - Liberia said it was prepared to join an international coalition against terrorism and declared three days of national mourning. ``Today the hands of evil have struck America,'' President Charles Taylor said at a prayer service. ``Tomorrow it could be any other nation.''
-
LIBYA: Leader Moammar Gadhafi condemned the attacks, called on Muslim aid agencies to offer support for the victims and said the United States had the right to take revenge, but asked ``will this put an end to the problem?'' ``There is nothing in Afghanistan,'' and if the United States occupies Afghanistan, ``it will not be in its interests,'' he said.
-
MADAGASCAR: Prime Minister Tantely Andrianarivo condemned the attacks, saying the people of Madagascar stand in solidarity with the American people and its government. Madagascar has provided additional police and military security personnel to help protect U.S. government buildings.
-
MALAWI: President Bakili Muzuli, a Muslim, described the attacks as acts of ``barbarism'' and said they went against the teachings of Islam. ``We all worship God to go to heaven and we cannot kill in order to go there,'' he said.
-
MAURITANIA - Government spokesman Rachid Ould Saleh condemned ``these horrible attacks.''
-
MOZAMBIQUE: Mozambique condemned the attack and expressed solidarity with the United States. President Joaquim Chissano urged the United States to think first before reacting and to be responsible in its actions.
-
NAMIBIA: President Sam Nujoma condemned the ``cowardly terrorist attack,'' and said the world should reaffirm its commitment to peace and ``to strengthen the fight against all forms of international terrorism.''
-
NIGERIA - While a few radical Muslims initially celebrated the attacks, most Muslim and Christian groups mourned the U.S. deaths. President Olusegun Obasanjo promised support for measures to bring the terrorists to justice.
-
REPUBLIC OF CONGO - President Denis Sassou-Nguesso offered to help bring those responsible to justice. ``All people of the world have to organize themselves to fight terrorism and enable the values of peace, freedom and development to triumph,'' he said.
-
RWANDA - President Paul Kagame expressed ``deepest condolences'' to Americans, their leaders ``and the families who lost their loved ones, at this hour of profound national catastrophe.''
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SAO TOME and PRINCIPE: The two-island nation off West Africa encouraged the United States to fight the perpetrators of the ``barbaric'' attacks. Elite troops were placed on guard at the port, airport and Voice of America offices.
-
SIERRA LEONE: President Ahmed Tejan Kabbah said his government and people ``hope and pray that the almighty God will give the injured people speedy recovery and the bereaved families succor and solace in this period of grief.''
-
SOMALIA: President Abdiqasim Salad Hassan expressed his condolences for the attack.
-
SOUTH AFRICA: President Thabo Mbeki offered humanitarian support to help the United States. Foreign Minister Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma said the United States' reaction should be focused and should not entail war against countries. Countries should instead work together to root out terrorism, he said.
-
SWAZILAND: Prime Minister Sibusiso Dlamini condemned the ``monstrous acts'' and sent condolences to the victims. ``But as in war ... we must carry on in our work, striving to ensure that good triumphs (over) evil.''
-
SUDAN: President Omar el-Bashir's Islamic government has been treated as an international pariah for the last 10 years, but was quick to condemn the attacks on Washington and New York. A Foreign Ministry statement said Sudan ``rejects all kinds of violence.'' El-Bashir said the attacks showed that no nation, even the powerful United States, was completely secure.
-
TANZANIA - President Benjamin Mkapa condemned the attacks, and the Foreign Ministry issued a statement saying, ``We sincerely hope that the perpetrators of this heinous crime will be tracked down, apprehended and brought to justice.'' In 1998, Tanzania was the site of one of the twin U.S. Embassy bombings linked to bin Laden.
-
UGANDA - President Yoweri Museveni offered condolences and condemned the attack. ``The Ugandan government has always been warning the world about the actions of terrorists which are always either cowardly or misguided,'' he said.
-
ZAMBIA: President Frederick Chiluba promised his country would ``stand with the United States to fight international terrorism for preservation of Christian values and democracy.''
-
ZIMBABWE: President Robert Mugabe wrote to President Bush expressing horror at the attacks and his people's solidarity with America. The attacks appeared to be the work of ``the most remorseless and hardened enemies of the United States government and people, and indeed, of all the peace-loving people of the wider world,'' he wrote.

MIDDLE EAST=

BAHRAIN: The crown prince, Sheik Salman bin Hamad Al Khalifa condemned the attacks as ``unjustifiable under any conditions.'' The island nation, home base to the U.S. Navy's Fifth Fleet, has close ties to the United States. Sheik Salman said Bahrain hasn't received any requests from Washington, but ``in a time of need, we stand by our friends.''
-
CYPRUS: President Glafcos Clerides has expressed support for action against terrorists. Government protested formally to the United States that a claim by former NATO commander Wesley Clark that Cyprus sheltered terrorists ``is absolutely unfounded and violates truth and real facts.''
-
EGYPT: President Hosni Mubarak (news - web sites) denounced the attacks as ``horrible and unimaginable,'' and that they ``led to the deaths of many innocent civilians.'' Mubarak also repeated his call for holding an international conference for combating terrorism. Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Maher reiterated Egypt's full cooperation with United States in the investigation.

EGYPT: The Arab Organization for Human Rights warned that some of the language used by U.S. leaders after the terrorist attacks was fueling assaults on Arab-Americans. The human rights group singled out the term ``crusade'' - used by President Bush (news - web sites) to describe what he said would be a new kind of war against evil. The group also accused U.S. authorities of focusing suspicions solely on Arabs and Muslims.

-
IRAN: Iran, an opponent of Afghanistan's Taliban leaders, closed its 562-mile border to prevent Afghan refugees from crossing in the event of U.S. attacks. The U.S. State Department has said it would consider welcoming Iran into an international coalition to fight terrorism. Iran has not indicated that it would join.
-
IRAQ: Said attacks resulted from aggressive U.S. policies, and said Americans should feel and learn from the pain they have inflicted on other people, including Iraqis and Palestinians. Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) urged United States to use wisdom, rather than force, in responding to attacks.
-
ISRAEL: President Bush pressured Israel to hold truce talks with the Palestinians as America seeks to build an international anti-terror coalition that would include Arab countries. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites) compared Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat (news - web sites) to Osama bin Laden and said he would permit high-level talks only after 48 hours without violence. Sharon said Monday that Israel had been invited to join the anti-terror coalition.
-
KUWAIT: Defense minister Sheik Jaber Mubarak Al Sabah pledged to work ``hand in hand'' with Washington to eliminate terrorism. Politically strong Muslim fundamentalist groups also condemned the attacks but said the world should not forget the ``suffering of our Palestinian brothers from Jewish terrorism.''
-
LEBANON: Has condemned the attacks, from President Emile Lahoud down to leaders of political and religious groups. Prime Minister Rafik Hariri said Wednesday he would support U.S. action against those proven to be the perpetrators. The Hezbollah guerrilla group has expressed regret for the loss of life, but warned against ``taking advantage of the attacks to practice aggression and terrorism against those who committed aggression and terrorism.''
-
OMAN: Oman's leader, Sultan Qaboos, condemned the attacks and said his country would stand ``side by side'' with the United States to fight terrorism. A Foreign Ministry statement said Oman is ready to cooperate in the U.S. effort, but did not say what type of cooperation it would offer.
-
QATAR: Foreign Minister Sheik Hamad bin Jassim bin Jabr Al Thani said in a telephone call Friday with Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) that Qatar condemned the attacks and is willing to cooperate in fighting terrorism. However, Qatar has not said whether it would join any anti-terrorism coalition,
-
SAUDI ARABIA: Said it will cooperate fully with the United States on its investigation into the attacks. It has condemned the attacks, but said they are partly the result of U.S. foreign policy, particularly in the Middle East.
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UNITED ARAB EMIRATES: The United Arab Emirates has condemned the attacks, has offered to help the United States fight terrorism and has launched an investigation to determine whether an Emirati national, Marwan Alshehhi, is the same man that German police have said is one of the 19 suspects in the attacks. Emirates President Sheik Zayed bin Sultan Al Nahyan warned in a letter to NATO ambassadors that without a solution to Middle East conflict, terrorism cannot be eradicated.
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YEMEN: Foreign Minister Abubakr al-Qirbi said his country rejects terrorism ``and Yemen will cooperate in fighting terrorism.'' Yemen has said it would be willing to join an international coalition to fight terrorism, but only under the umbrella of an international organization such as the United Nations.

SUBCONTINENT/CENTRAL ASIA

AFGHANISTAN: The Taliban leaders have refused to hand over the prime suspect, Osama bin Laden. The Taliban said they were fortifying bunkers and installations in preparation for a possible U.S. military response. Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar received the support of senior clerics. All foreigners were ordered to leave, and many Afghans began to flee.
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ARMENIA: Condemned the attacks and offered to send salvage experts to the United States. Armenian officials have called for coordination of international efforts to fight terrorism.
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AZERBAIJAN: Azerbaijani President Geidar Aliev denounced the attacks as ``the most monstrous event in modern history,'' ordered a nationwide mourning for its victims and offered his nation's help in tracking down the organizers of the attacks.
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INDIA: Intelligence officials said they have given the United States information about Islamic extremists in Afghanistan and Pakistan, including evidence describing how bin Laden and other Muslim militant leaders were financing guerrilla groups and running training camps.
-
KAZAKSTAN: Kazakstan, the largest of the former Soviet republics in Central Asia, has condemned the attacks and sent condolences to Washington. But officials have been nervous about possible U.S. strikes in Afghanistan, fearing they would destabilize the region and trigger a flow of refugees.

KAZAKSTAN: The former Soviet republics of Kazakstan, Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan in Central Asia agreed to cooperate with the United States in fighting terrorism. Kyrgyzstan said if requested, it would ``supply the FBI (news - web sites) with all materials it is interested in,'' while Uzbekistan said it was willing to discuss all forms of cooperation including the deployment of U.S. forces. Tajikistan said it was ready to cooperate with the Americans.
-
KYRGYZSTAN: Kyrgyzstan, separated from Afghanistan by a thin swath of mountainous Tajikistan, expressed condolences to the United States and called for stronger action against international terrorism. Officials have made no commitments to assist the United States.
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PAKISTAN: Declared its ``full support'' for U.S. retaliation against the Taliban, and was sending a high-level delegation to Kandahar on Monday to demand the Taliban hand over bin Laden to the United States or risk a massive retaliatory assault. Hard-line Muslims, who oppose Pakistani cooperation with the United States, demonstrated nationwide.
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TAJIKISTAN: Ruled out the possibility of launching any Western-led reprisal attacks from its territory, which borders northern Afghanistan. Prime Minister Akil Akilov had indicated he might consider a U.S. request to provide air corridors, but only with approval from Russia and the international community.
-
TURKMENISTAN: Turkmenistan, which borders Afghanistan, has condemned the terror attacks and offered support to the United States. However, President Saparmurat Niyazov has been noncommittal about any possible assistance to the United States for staging strikes on Afghanistan.
-
RUSSIA: Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered a nationwide moment of silence for victims of the attacks and called for a global effort to uproot international terrorism. At the same time, Russia, where one of every seven residents is Muslim, is unlikely to risk internal unrest by joining any U.S. retaliation. Russian officials have also made it clear that Moscow does not want former Soviet republics in Central Asia to be used as bases for such operations.

RUSSIA: Chairman of the Russian parliament's foreign relations committee told the U.S. ambassador he opposes letting United States use bases in Central Asia for the fight against terrorism because he fears the Americans may stay. A U.S. delegation begins talks Wednesday with Russian officials on how to combat terrorism.


UZBEKISTAN: The Foreign Ministry said Monday that it was ready ``to discuss any form of cooperation in the struggle against international terrorism in our region, including the deployment of U.S. forces.'' The predominantly Muslim nation, which borders Afghanistan, has itself faced attacks by Islamic extremists allegedly linked with the Taliban.

ASIA/PACIFIC=

AUSTRALIA: Agreed to a U.S. request to keep its frigate HMAS Anzac stationed in the Persian Gulf for eight days longer than planned. It had been due to leave the area, where it had been enforcing sanctions against Iraq, on Sunday. Australia has invoked its defense treaty with the United States, clearing the way for military participation in any U.S. retaliatory strikes.
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BRUNEI: Sultan Hassanal Bolkiah, absolute ruler of the tiny, oil-rich enclave on Borneo island in Southeast Asia, expressed shock and sent a message of condolence to President Bush.
-
CHINA: President Jiang Zemin (news - web sites) called Bush a day after the attacks to express condolences and say China wanted to collaborate with the United States on anti-terrorism activities. A deputy foreign minister said China wanted to be consulted before Washington or NATO countries took any military action outside their territories.
-
INDONESIA: President Megawati Sukarnoputri condemned the attacks before she left Monday for the United States to meet Bush and address the U.N. General Assembly. Indonesia is the world's most populous Muslim nation, where some hard-line Islamic groups are waging separatist conflicts that threaten the secular government.
-
JAPAN: The Japanese government pledged to help the United States in its war against terrorism ``in whatever way we can.'' The nation's pacifist constitution prohibits it from engaging in offensive military action, but Tokyo has promised help with transport and medical operations.
-
MALAYSIA: Security has been tightened at the world's tallest buildings, the Petronas Twin Towers, after a bomb scare. Government officials promise to investigate reports that one of the hijackers who crashed a plane into the Pentagon met a suspect in the USS Cole (news - web sites) attack at the Kuala Lumpur's airport in October. Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad warned against retaliatory violence, saying the result will be more terror.
-
SOUTH KOREA: Observed a national day of mourning on Friday. South Korean President Kim Dae-jung (news - web sites) said the two Koreas should issue a joint statement against terrorism in reconciliation talks now under way in Seoul. The North has not commented on the proposal.
-
TAIWAN: President Chen Shui-bian offered to ``provide any necessary assistance'' to the United States against terrorism. Chen ordered security to be stepped up at airports, ports and nuclear plants, and appointed a panel to study how the attacks would affect the world's economy.
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THAILAND: Pledged to help the United States ``just as we did in the past.'' During the Gulf War against Iraq, Thailand was used by U.S. military aircraft as a refueling stop. The government has pledged to exchange intelligence on terrorists and will support any United Nations resolution against terrorism.
-
VIETNAM: President Tran Duc Luong sent a message to Bush expressing shock at the attacks. ``Vietnam consistently rejects terrorist actions which cause loss of life and suffering to civilians,'' he said.

THE AMERICAS=

ARGENTINA: The only South American country with a special status in NATO has fully backed the United States in its promised war on terrorism. Argentina committed troops to the Gulf War a decade ago, but has not yet specified what form of support it would provide.
-
BOLIVIA - The Bolivian government issued a statement offering its support to the United States after the terrorist attacks. Most Bolivians condemned the attacks, though certain union leaders, including Indian leader and former guerrilla Felipe Quispe, have said that the ``imperialist'' politics of the United States led to them.
-
BRAZIL: Proposed that the Organization of American States formalize support for the United States under a 1947 treaty that considers an armed attack on any member as an attack on all. Foreign Minister Celso Lafer said that for now the support was diplomatic and not military, but he declined to say whether Brazil would endorse an eventual U.S. military response.
-
CANADA: Will be part of a ``global response to a global threat,'' Prime Minister Jean Chretien said Monday, but he has so far refused to commit Canadian troops to any ground fighting. Opposition leader Stockwell Day of the Canadian Alliance said, ``If and when the need arises for military action ... we must be willing and we must be prepared to provide it.''
-
CHILE: Condemned the attacks and expressed firm support for the United States, though cautioning that any response should be within the frame of international law and avoid harm to innocent people.
-
COLOMBIA: President Andres Pastrana prayed for the victims in a chapel in the presidential palace. Just as the global drug scourge cannot be defeated without every country's cooperation, all nations have a ``shared responsibility'' to combat terrorism, Pastrana said. Firefighters in Cali and Medellin also marched or prayed in support of New York City firefighters.
-
COSTA RICA: Foreign Minister Roberto Rojas announced on Friday that Costa Rica, which holds the presidency of the Permanent Council of the Organization of American States, will convene a meeting of the council in Washington on Wednesday to analyze the repercussions of the attacks.
-
CUBA: Cuban President Fidel Castro (news - web sites) condemned the attacks and offered medical assistance to the United States. He also cautioned against getting ``caught up in the desire'' for revenge.
-
ECUADOR: Police and army intelligence are investigating the possible presence of Osama bin Laden's Al-Qaeda terrorist organization within the country, Foreign Minister Heinz Moeller said Monday.
-
EL SALVADOR - President Francisco Flores condemned the attack and suspended all Independence Day celebrations. The Congress declared three days of national mourning, and Flores said that ``anything El Salvador (news - web sites) can do to collaborate (in the investigations) it will do.''
-
GUATEMALA - The Guatemalan government declared three days of mourning and lowered flags at government buildings to half-staff. President Alfonso Portillo condemned the attacks in his annual Independence Day speech on Saturday and said he supported the international fight against terrorism and organized crime.
-
HONDURAS - Seven Central American countries are tentatively scheduled to meet in Honduras on Wednesday to adopt a common strategy against terrorism in the wake of the New York attacks, the Honduran government announced Monday. Honduran officials said their country ``is most willing to participate in the fight against terrorism.''
-
MEXICO - Fresh from a visit to Washington, President Vicente Fox (news - web sites) said his country is ``ready to collaborate with all those countries in a proposed alliance to fight this evil.'' Foreign Secretary Jorge Castaneda told the Mexican Congress that the United States ``has every right and reason to seek reprisal'' and that ``we can't deny them our support.''
-
NICARAGUA - The Nicaraguan government said it deplored the attacks and promised to lend whatever help was necessary to fight terrorism within the framework of the Interamerican Reciprocal Assistance Treaty, a mutual defense treaty for the Western Hemisphere. The government said it also would help with the investigations in whatever way possible.
-
PANAMA: Reinforced protection of the Panama Canal, the U.S. Embassy, oil refineries and the main airport. President Mireya Moscoso sent the U.S. government a message of support and solidarity.
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PARAGUAY - Paraguay has stepped up controls along its borders with Brazil and Argentina, a thriving trade corridor that is home to a large Arab community. The area has been suspected in the past of being a conduit for shadowy Islamic groups.
-
PERU: President Alejandro Toledo expressed support for the United States against the ``demented'' terrorist attacks that affect ``not only the United States but also the democratic conviction of the world.'' Foreign Minister Diego Garcia Sayan pressed for an emergency meeting of the Organization of American States to adopt a resolution backing all measures in the fight against global terrorism.
-
URUGUAY: Foreign Secretary Didier Opertti says Uruguay ``will support the collective decisions taken because it understands that this aggression is not just an aggression against the United States, but against the lifestyle of our countries.''
-
VENEZUELA: President Hugo Chavez said OPEC (news - web sites) member Venezuela would do ``everything possible'' to guarantee steady oil supplies. He appealed to President Bush not to wage a ``World War III'' that could trigger global, even nuclear, conflict. Defense Minister Jose Vicente Rangel said Venezuela could cooperate in U.S.-led military action but won't promise ``carte blanche'' help in a conflict with Muslim nations, with which Venezuela maintains ties based on oil.


MORE:

CHINA: China pledged to join the United States and the world in considering ``any proposals'' to eliminate terrorism but stressed that retaliation should be weighed carefully and follow international law. China expressed its willingness to discuss at the U.N. Security Council any proposals against terrorism.


FRANCE: President Jacques Chirac was scheduled to meet Tuesday evening with Bush at the White House. Chirac has said the French would be ``totally supportive'' in the fight against terrorism once those responsible for the U.S. attacks are identified. Prime Minister Lionel Jospin cautioned that France would need support from its parliament before engaging in retaliatory action for the attacks.

IRAQ: President Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) said the United States was using the Sept. 11 attacks as a pretext to settle old scores with Muslim countries. He also accused Washington of using ``sheer terrorism and blackmail'' against several countries to force them to support its campaign.


JAPAN: Japan's central bank lowered its key interest rate from 0.25 percent to 0.10 percent, a largely symbolic gesture of solidarity with the United States and Europe, and took other measures to make more money available in the market. Japan's ruling coalition also outlined a new push to allow the country's military to help guard U.S. bases in Japan, while a top Japanese official said his nation should provide logistical support and medical services, not just monetary aid.

-










 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 437 of 783: rachael  (rachael) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (17:28) * 6 lines 
 
excellent and useful summary, thanks suzee

UK news today has been reporting Blair doing major diplomatic stuff to get countries to agree to united action (in particular 6 African states, and China); also that he will be in the US to meet Bush on Thursday, clear implication being discussing military action. Top brass military have apparently been in Downing St.

what hasn't been on the news, but I'm not the only one noticing it, a couple of friends have said the same in other parts of the country, there's been lots more movement of military aircraft around here the last couple of days than would be normal.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 438 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (17:46) * 16 lines 
 
ITS HARD TO BELIEVE WE HAVE CRETINS LIKE THIS IN BUSINESS IN AMERICA
People like what? People like one Bill Schrempf. He's the CEO of NCCI Holdings, Inc. in Boca Raton, Florida. NCCI is a company that compiles workers compensation insurance data. How exciting. They have about 850 employes in its Boca Raton offices.
It seems that some of the NCCI employees are proud of their heritage and proud of their country. In the wake of the terrorist attack some of these NCCI employees decided that they wanted to display an American flag on their desks. At that point the dynamic Bill Schrempf swung into action. The orders went out to his managers and they immediately fanned out throughout the workplace confiscating the American flags. Schrempf, it seems, is afraid that some of the workers in the NCCI offices might find the display offensive.
So, NCCI boss Bill Schrempf finds himself in the same rouges gallery as John Smeaton, the vice provost of student affairs at Lehigh University in Pennsylvania. Smeaton ordered flags removed from campus busses for fear that foreign students might be (gasp!!!!) offended!!! The one difference between Lehigh and NCCI is that at Lehigh there was someone above Smeaton who actually possessed an ounce of sense and some feelings of patriotism. Smeaton's order was countered in minutes. At NCCI Schrempf is the boss! There IS nobody above him (unless the Board of Directors calls a quick meeting.)
How's this for a workplace rule. Nobody works here who is offended by the American Flag. Period. If the American Flag offends you then you are a virtual cancer in this workplace. Pack your stuff and don't let the door knob hit you in the ass on your way out. Let me put it another way. If I have a flag on my desk and you try to confiscate it because you are offended -- then you have a damned good chance to be the subject of one of those statistical records that NCCI collects.
DAMN -- this just pisses me off. Sorry, can't hide it. I wish I had the money to buy that company just so I could send Schrempf packing.
Now -- it just happens that I don't have any need for a company that compiles workers compensation data. In the interest of all fairness -- since I have slammed Bill Schrempf and his company -- don't you think its only fair that I list the company name and phone number? I mean -- just in case you happen to agree with Bill Schrempf and would like to call and congratulate him! So, for that purpose only ....
NCCI HOLDINGS INC
901 PENINSULA CORP CIR
BOCA RATON, FL
(561)893-1000
And here's a link to the story from the Palm Beach Post.
http://www.gopbi.com/partners/pbpost/epaper/editions/saturday/business_3.html
ANY CONNECTION TO THIS NCCI?
Last evening (Sunday) I spent a good amount of time trying to find an Internet site for NCCI. No luck. This caused me to expand my search and, with the help of a Nuze reader came with some interesting items. We found two websites this morning. One, ( http://www.ncci.com ) appears to be for the Palm Beach company. The other, ( http://www.ncci.sa.com/ ) is for the NCCI (National Corporation for Cooperative Insurance) that was established by Royal Decree No. M/5 of 17/4/1405H as a Saudi Joint Stock Company. That's right --- a corporation wholly owned by the government of Saudi Arabia. It seems this Saudi Arabian company is in the same business -- insurance. In searching both websites I could find no interlocking references. This doesn't mean no connection exists --- but the coincidence is somewhat amazing. Both with the "NCCI" in their name, both in the insurance business. I wonder who the stockholders of the Palm Beach company are?



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 439 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (19:36) * 3 lines 
 
Every possible resource has been posted on a special page by Google.com plus important contacts and news sources world wide.

http://www.google.com/news/


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 440 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (19:38) * 1 lines 
 
This page is an excellent resource. I'm going to make it my home page.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 441 of 783: Wolf  (wolf) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (20:10) * 1 lines 
 
marcia, you may post the ribbon in all of our conferences--and terry, can we get it on our main page?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 442 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (21:38) * 1 lines 
 
Sure thing!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 443 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (22:24) * 75 lines 
 

Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:56:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lauren Weinstein Subject: The Big Picture?
Cc: lauren@pfir.org


"You will say you lose your freedom. Freedom is an illusion.
All you lose is the emotion of pride."
-- Colossus
"Colossus: The Forbin Project" (1970)

"There seems to be a definite pattern emerging."
-- The Psychiatrist (G. Wood)
"Harold and Maude" (1971)


An interesting pattern does seem to be emerging. I do not suggest that it's
the result of a conspiracy, but rather the result of long-term trends that
have been self-reinforcing. Still, like the images in a kaleidoscope,
complex-appearing structures can seem to easily appear from independent
actions.

We start with media consolidation on a grand scale. The range of
content providers and distribution operations -- TV, cable, newspapers,
magazine, Internet, and so on, are primarily in the hands of a tiny
cadre of gigantic firms. This consolidation seems likely to continue
to even more intense levels.

Such concentration of media power provides the ability to present a highly
unified message both to the population at large and to Congress through
lobbyists. A slogan like CNN's "America's New War" can be applied across a
range of related properties and environments, instead of merely being
sandwiched between "EnerX" commercials.

Next step: Institute a mindset and legal structure that marginalizes all
rights to information except those of copyright holders (most of the
widely-used content will be under the control of those few media
conglomerates we discussed above, of course). The Digital Millennium
Copyright Act (DMCA) helps enormously at this stage to accomplish
this goal. Send violators to prison along with the rapists, murderers,
and terrorists. Finally, a way to fill those jail cells being
emptied out in California from the new "treat drug offenders rather
than jail them" program.

Gotta keep the momentum going. Outlaw the sale or providing of *everything*
--hardware, software, communications, impure thoughts, or what have you--
relating to digital technologies that cannot be directly controlled by those
concentrated media forces. The SSSCA (Security Systems Standards and
Certification Act) should do nicely. To sweeten the deal, point out that
since only SSSCA-approved security systems would be legal, it could provide
a dandy mechanism to make the use of strong encryption in the private sector
illicit. All that's needed is to ensure that such strong crypto systems are
not compatible with the SSSCA-approved mechanisms (or refuse to certify
anything that contains those undesirable systems). The approved security
system will of course contain the appropriate backdoors for data access by
the powers-that-be (and sufficiently resourceful hackers). The level of
civil disobedience likely to result will probably be the highest since
prohibition, but hey, prohibition didn't have any nasty side-effects that
weren't trivial to control, right?

And to tie this all up in a nice neat bow, be ready to take advantage of any
catastrophe, tragedy, or horror to assert your agenda while emotions run
high and knee-jerk reactions are the order of the day.

Voila! Mission accomplished.

--Lauren--
Lauren Weinstein
lauren@pfir.org or lauren@vortex.com or lauren@privacyforum.org
Tel: +1 (818) 225-2800
Co-Founder, PFIR - People For Internet Responsibility - http://www.pfir.org
Moderator, PRIVACY Forum - http://www.vortex.com
Member, ACM Committee on Computers and Public Policy
"Reality Reset" Columns - http://www.vortex.com/reality


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 444 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (22:25) * 113 lines 
 
Subject: [risks] Risks Digest 21.66
Date: Monday, September 17, 2001 10:13 PM
From: RISKS List Owner
Reply-To: risko@csl.sri.com
To:

RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest Monday 17 September 2001 Volume 21 : Issue
66

FORUM ON RISKS TO THE PUBLIC IN COMPUTERS AND RELATED SYSTEMS
(comp.risks)
ACM Committee on Computers and Public Policy, Peter G. Neumann, moderator

***** See last item for further information, disclaimers, caveats, etc.
*****
This issue is archived at
and by anonymous ftp at ftp.sri.com, cd risks .

Contents:
11 September 2001 in retrospect (PGN)
Abridged info on RISKS (comp.risks)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:27:43 PDT
From: "Peter G. Neumann"
Subject: 11 September 2001 in retrospect

***********************************
***********************************
** 11 September 2001 **
***********************************
***********************************

"THE RISKS ARE OBVIOUS."
BUT PERHAPS NOT OBVIOUS ENOUGH.


11 September 2001 will be painfully remembered by most of the planet's
population for the coordinated hijacking of four jetliners and the ensuing
surprise attacks on New York City's World Trade Center and the Pentagon,
with thousands of lives lost and enormous consequential after-effects. Our
hearts go out to everyone close to those who were so irrevocably affected --
including the crash victims, the firemen and other emergency workers in New
York City, and especially the UA93 passengers whose efforts evidently saved
the lives of others.

We are once again reminded how fragile our lives and civic infrastructures
are, and how interdependent we all are. Although violent and sudden
large-scale termination of people's lives has previously been all too
familiar in many countries of the world, many of us have hitherto largely
taken too much for granted. Hopefully, the aftermath of this fateful day
will dramatically increase public awareness of some of the vulnerabilities
in our lives and risks to our freedom.

However, the events should come as no surprise, because many warnings have
been widely ignored. For example, the President's Commission on Critical
Infrastructure Protection of the previous U.S. Administration identified
serious vulnerabilities in telecommunications, electric power and other
energy sources, transportation, financial services, emergency services, and
government continuity. It noted how interdependent these critical
infrastructures are, and how they are all related to information
technologies. It also observed difficulties in coordination among and
within different infrastructures, and perhaps most relevant, a general lack
of public awareness. In many respects, complacency has been seen across the
board in response to that report. In addition, the White House Commission
on Safety and Security (the Gore Commission) identified many serious risks
in aviation. (Also, see my paper ,
presented at the January 1997 International Conference on Aviation Safety
and Security, co-sponsored by that commission and George Washington
University.) Various analyses of commercial aviation and air-traffic
control over the past 18 years within the Department of Transportation have
identified potentially serious vulnerabilities that merit closer attention.
More recently, a U.S. General Accounting Office report identified many
serious problems in airport security. But, perhaps because the risks and
threat levels seemed low, or possibly because institutional bureaucracy is
so deeply entrenched, very little action was deemed necessary.
Unfortunately, some of the issues recognized therein have now come home to
roost.

As a society, we in the U.S. seem to be unwilling to take certain prudent
precautions -- perhaps because they would cost too much, or be too
inconvenient, or would seriously degrade service. Apparently, we suffer
from a serious lack of foresight.

The Risks Forum has persistently considered risks associated with our
technologies and their uses, but we often note that many of the crises and
other risk-related problems have resulted from low-tech events, misguided
human behavior, or malicious misbehavior. In short, the typical search for
high-tech solutions to problems stemming from social, economic, and
geopolitical causes has frequently ignored more basic issues. Over-endowing
high-tech solutions is riskful in the absence of adequate understanding of
the limitations of the technology and the frailties and perversities of
human nature. Whereas there are high-tech solutions that might be effective
if properly used, we should also be examining some low-tech and no-tech
approaches.

One pervasive theme in the Risks Forum over the past 16 years has been the
ubiquity of systemic vulnerabilities relating to security, reliability,
availability, and overall survivability, with respect to human enterprises,
society at large, and to systems, applications, and enterprises based on
information technologies. Evidently, we still have much to learn.

Let us seek to build a better world, and remain true to our human values and
constitutional foundations. Also, let us beware of seeming solutions --
technological or otherwise -- that result in further escalation of the
risks. Sadly, because of the inherent vulnerabilities in those seeming
solutions, we are always at risk, whether we realize it or not.

Peter G. Neumann

------------------------------



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 445 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (22:26) * 124 lines 
 
Subject: To the day
Date: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 11:07 AM
From: Womack, Jack


As I start to write this, I look at my watch and realize that one week ago,
just now, I'd just seen the first tower go down. Here in the new world it
seems like a year, two years, a hundred years. Time has taken on a rubbery
quality.

Toward the end of Burn's The Civil War documentary, years ago, there was a
single phrase read aloud; written by either a Yankee or Confederate some
time after the war, thinking back on his experience, and I keep hearing it
in my head:

"Were these things real?"

Even as I go through each day, so much of it still refuses to settle into
anything remotely resembling reality. Last night we watched Letterman, who
was on for the first time after the late news, and it was extremely strange,
and vaguely unsettling. He didn't make any jokes, of course, but this most
hard-shelled of all contemporary performers revealed depths of sadness, and
fear, and uncertainty, and anger; and then Dan Rather came out as his guest
and broke down in tears twice.

Extremely unreal.

Yet, on the other hand, V & I went over to Jersey City late yesterday
afternoon to have dinner with her mother and celebrate the new year
(praying, as every year, to have one more year). While I expected huge
backups at the bus terminal, we somehow managed to hit it right, and got
from Port Authority to Summit Ave. in Jersey City in half an hour. On the
way, as we went up Palisades Avenue, which runs along the top of the
Palisades (which, in this area, are utterly urbanized) and so I saw all of
lower Manhattan from the Jersey side, and the absence of the Towers, and the
smoke that continues to rise therefrom.

That, conversely, now seemed normal.

Valeria's mother, who is 68, was extremely happy to see us. Jersey City has
a large Arab population (and Indian, and Phillipine, and...) and she was
more than usually suspicious -- relating stories of how two had been
arrested (I have heard this on the news as well), etc. She's holding up very
well, though; of course, this is a woman who grew up in Soviet Russia during
the Second World War, and under Stalin, and didn't leave the USSR until
1981, so she's had considerable experience, living life under conditions
that are only now beginning to become imaginable.

Besides the absence of the Towers from a distance there are many things that
are beginning to seem normal to me now. Leaving the house fifteen minutes
earlier because my subway now becomes express at 96th, and therefore no
longer stops at 50th (unless I transfer). Seeing at least one policeman at
every subway station, and many more at the larger stations. Hearing, along
with the occasional airplane (I gather airports are becoming rather ghostly,
at present), the occasional F-16. Phone service, especially long-distance &
cellular, that comes and goes. Police barricades along Fifth, metal barriers
at the Channel Gardens at Rockefeller Center, the sight of US flags
everywhere, attached to car aerials, hanging from windows, photocopied and
taped onto doors. The occasional Army humvee parked on Broadway. New York
crowds, thinned out to a level I haven't seen since the late 70s and early
80s, when no one wanted to come to NY on a bet, save for the likes of me and
my people.

I'd recommend the new New Yorker. The cover is by Spiegelman, and brilliant.


In the News, this morning, an article about NY's Afghan restaurants, and how
no one is eating at them, and how they're quickly going to go broke; the
people who run them are, of course, in nearly all cases immigrants who came
here to escape the war during the 80s, or the Taliban since. And the new
total of people still missing is a little over 5,400 -- evidently the
additional 700 weren't reported until yesterday; I imagine many relatives,
companies, etc., were still holding out hope. A friend in Australia has told
me 100 Aussies have been killed; a friend in Germany says anywhere up to
200-some Germans were killed; and of course 500 Brits. 100 Russians. And
U.S. citizens who, being New Yorkers, were of every possible background,
every color and creed. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus..

An attack on Civilization, period.

I need to talk to my father again tonight, to see how he is doing. Two weeks
ago, tomorrow, my stepmother suddenly died, as you and some others know (she
was 52). Her funeral was September 8, and then 3 days later...thoughts of
her vanished from my mind, mostly, since last Tuesday, and that makes me
feel sad, but even so I can only move forward. I know I didn't come close to
processing her death, but at some point I suppose I will -- or maybe I
already have, in this new world. I honestly don't know.

I'm not as scared today as I was yesterday. I can't imagine this will last;
today is Ros Ha'shanah, NY is quiet yet again -- this time, for better
reason then has recently been the case -- and, clearly, something is in the
air. But I don't know what, and until that something occurs, I can only do
what I have been trying to do for some years -- since I came down with the
TB, really, back in early 1997; and again, after Jenna died, back in March
-- and that is, live one day at a time. The thing is, I have been *trying*
to do this; and I think, now, I finally am.

It is the most real of all unreal feelings, to be doing so.



Jonathan Carroll has just sent the following, which I pass along.

Friends,
I had an idea today and it may be nuts but maybe not. I know you're all in
touch one way or another with people in the computer community worldwide and
they're in touch with others, etcetera. Here's my idea, for what it's worth.
Computer hackers are often thought of as nasty little shits who fuck up
everybody's day for no reason(s) other than to be annoying. But what if for
once they put their minds to a real and important task-- what if that hacker
community worldwide tried in break to the computer networks of the
terrorists? The Greatest Challenge, the greatest "game" ever posed them and
any results would be, well, heroic.
What if this message or something like it was sent out far and wide to these
computer experts? A genuine call to arms to people who believe nothing
justifies what was done in New York the other day and now knowledgeable,
talented people must do what they can to fight it far and wide. For hackers
that means crack their systems, figure out what they're saying, give the
results to the people who can put it to good use, etcetera. Do exactly what
they've been doing all along--hack the system-- but this time do it for
something that means saving lives everywhere.
I leave the thought in your hands,
Jonathan



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 446 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (22:27) * 109 lines 
 

*Arthur Kroker Vents His Feelings With Such
Untoward Eloquence That They Threaten To Make
Common Sense *8-/


Subject: Event-scene 97 - Terrorism of Viral Power
Date: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 2:18 PM
From: CTHEORY EDITORS
Reply-To: CTHEORY EDITORS
To:

_____________________________________________________________________
CTHEORY THEORY, TECHNOLOGY AND CULTURE VOL 24, NO 3

Event-scene 97 09/18/01 Editors: Arthur and Marilouise Kroker
_____________________________________________________________________


Terrorism of Viral Power
========================


~Arthur and Marilouise Kroker~


The 20th century took place under the sign of nuclear superpower: a
cold war with bloc to bloc political confrontations; a military
rhetoric of graduated escalating respnses; a strangely comforting
illusion of "mutually assured destruction." Deterrence was
everywhere. Dissuasion was the code. A bored culture living in the
shadowland of apocalypse now.

That ended September 11th. The field of power flipped. The triumphant
era of the last superpower suddenly gave way to the contagious logic
of viral power. In place of the certainty principle of nuclear
stalemate, there emerges now the radical uncertainty of the terrorism
of micro-power. The always suspended fantaticism of technological
holocaust is challenged by the fanaticism of religious zealotry.
The logic of deterrence no longer functions. Deterrrence only works
in a deadly game in which adversaries have a primary interest in
preserving their own lives. Sacrificing one's own life is the first
gambit, and real psychological fuel of suicide commandos.

Dissuasion is inoperative. Again, the code of dissuasion is
intimately linked to a politics founded on preserving territory.
However, viral power is terroristic precisely because it occupies
only the imaginary territory of symbolic exchange. The religious
ecstasy of a sudden, unexpected, devastating strike against the
symbolic capital of the American empire: the trinity of the World
Trade Center, Pentagon and the airlines of America.
The terrorism of the new age of viral power has these symbolic
qualities:

It is a micro-power, not a superpower.

It is low tech, not high tech--and thus invisible to the optical
scanners of the ruling technological regime. Paradoxically, the
(technological) weakness of viral power is its strength.

It is subterranean, secretive--driven by a crusading spirit equal to
the religious zeal of the Middle Ages. Breaking the rules of
publicity culture, it claims no responsibility and thus speaks
clearly to the cultural imagination of the suppressed and powerless
everywhere.

It is a matter of biological violence, not physics. Flowing invisibly
through the rhetorical screen of the 'anti-ballistic missile system,'
viral power adopts the strategy of the attacking parasite: invading
the body of the host (the American homeland), bleeding its tactical
intelligence (those flight schools in Florida), circulating in its
commercial bloodstream (American airlines), and imploding in a
violent fatal metastasis that has as its aim the infiltration of the
mediascape through its apocalyptic effects. Viral power avoids
conflict with the real military assests of the host nation because
its actual intention is a strategic media strike. Viral power is
understandable only in the language of the media: the twin spectacles
of sadness and terror; the doubled language of fascination and dread.
In the days ahead, the media spectacle will shift to the viral
language of rage and revenge.

Tragically, the real missiles were those American people taken
hostage in the air. The real targets were not hardened missile silos,
but the dominant symbols of American power. The real terrorism was
the destabilization of the American government. The real war is the
coming war on civil liberties as the price for combating terrorism.
The real 'ground zero' was provoking America to acts of vengeance
that will only fast-feed the future rage of viral power. The scenario
of terrorism, then, as a mutating virus that copies itself to
American rage on its way to revenge against the host-scapegoat.
Viral power goes into the sea, the sky, the earth. It cannot be
defeated by the normal methods of nuclear warfare. It can only be
copied.

The virus of terrorism is about to enter the American bloodstream,
taking democracy hostage. Listen to House of Representatives Minority
Leader Richard Gephardt:

"We are in a new world. We have to rebalance freedom and
security. We can't take away people's civil liberties. But we're
not going to have all the openness and freedom we have had."

The implosion of American democracy, then, as the ultimate objective
of the suicide commandos. The 'war on terrorism' may have finally
begun, but the first casualty may well be American freedom as it was
envisioned before September 11, 2001.
_____________________________________________________________________

Arthur and Marilouise Kroker are the editors of CTHEORY.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 447 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (22:27) * 132 lines 
 
From: Stewart Brand Subject: not-terrorism

Dave, the following set of thoughts is from Kevin Kelly, who spent four
months in Afghanistan in the late 70s, more months in northern Pakistan,
and a long time in Iran (during its revolution). I think its balanced
inquiry might be of interest to IPers.
--Stewart Brand


The Taliban are kind of like Nazis to the Afghanis, but we should remember
that while the Nazis had resistance and passive obedience among the
Germans, they also had supporters. And so do the Taliban. But it's true
most of the Afghanis, like the Germans, are just getting screwed.

The other important point is the the Taliban are not bin Laden, and bin
Laden not the Taliban. Bin Laden is a foreigner who is barely tolerated by
most rural Afghanis, since the Afghanis are very xenophobic. I think bin
Laden is far more sophisticated, complex, and cosmopolitan than the
Taliban. Few Taliban have ever left their home province. Bin Laden is a
world savvy.

For another thing, he is brilliantly creative, and known among his
supporters as 'imaginative." You can't say that about the Taliban. HIs
idea of using American know-how to bomb itself, using no resources of his
own, is sheer genius.

He is one of the few Islamics to bridge the great cultural gulf between
and among the Arabs. Remember that the Afghanis are NOT Arabs. They are
Caucasians, their language is "Indo-European" and they are culturally
Persians. The Afghanis don't even like Arabs. Yet bin Laden is able to
speak to and appeal to them as well as North Africans, Lebonese,
Egyptians, Iraquis, Palestinians, Iranians, Pakistanis, Kashmiris -- which
is simply remarkable. More so, he has bridge the religious differences
among the Muslims, although he still has a way to go. Just getting Shiite
and Suni Muslims in the same room is itself a remarkable achievement.

That fact that bin Laden appeals to married, 43-year old residents of
America with pilot licenses willing to give their lives, says to me there
is something large and non-marginal about this. Bin Laden may be Hitler,
but it does no good to think of Hitler, or bin Laden, as "fringe" or even
as a terrorist. This is a main stream, middle of the road skirmish.

Radical Islam will become the new communism, if it isn't that already. It
has a deep appeal, even to those subjugated to it. There are aspects about
that even supporters don't like and can't stand, but they will submit to
it because they believe it is better overall than the alternative of
"western capitalism."

And like communism it will be very hard to eradicate it, should we attempt
to. The Arab countries we are now asking to take sides, will probably take
sides with us, but this will kill and maim them because they are
essentially taking sides against many of their own citizens, who may be
better organized and committed than the government itself.

The key question for me is: will this revolutionary style -- a sort of
mafia, suicidal, networked, globally guerilla insurgency -- be imported by
other non-muslim radicals? Will bin Laden become the Che Guevera of this
century? Will the resident antipathy towards America in other spheres be
cast in the same style. Will all anti-global-capitalism become clones of
bin Laden?

Like communism this can spread. And like communism I think its a very bad
idea in practice, though it sounds good in theory. So I am in favor of
halting it, and I believe that it needs to be combatted early and often.

But the danger of radical Islam becoming the new communism is that anyone
who is not against them becomes branded a communist, or "terrorist,"
themselves. That worries me because I am not so eager to label bin Laden a
"tinpot terrorist." He is not second rate, and he may not even be a
terrorist. This is a new kind of war. There has been no demands made, like
in most terrorism. There is nothing we have that they want. Their intent
is not to terrorize. This is only a side product. Their intent is to
destroy the prevailing mono-system. But they are not a state government,
but a pan-national network that is growing. We've done little to eradicate
them in 20 years. They are stronger now then ever before.

At first I thought that the World Trade airbombing would need to be
followed through by another attack to have lasting meaning, but as the
depth and sophistication of the network of the radicals is revealed I
think we have already reached a critical moment. I think we need a new
framework for understanding them. I would ban the use of the words
"terrorists" and "terrorism." A better old word is "revolutionary."

Our chief concern should be that there is nothing we have they want. They
don't want recognition. They don't want our trade. They don't want our
culture. They don't want our aspirations -- democracy, free choice, high
technology. They don't want our values. They don't want our wealth.

Actually, they would like our literacy (for males) and health care, but
that is not enough. I think we need to enlarge western civilization so
that we have something to offer them that they want. For all their
differences, the Chinese and other Asias share aspirations with us. They
would like to have much that we have. This is true of Latin America and
even Africa to some extent. They want it in their own way, and on their
own terms, and with their own improvements, but there is a sense of of a
common goal.

The Radical Islamics don't share that goal. And for the first time since
communism, there is a competing destiny in the world. It is not the end of
history as far as they are concerned. We in the west look at radical Islam
and blink in disbelief that anyone could possibly WANT this? Are you
serious? Yes. They are as serious as the World Trade Towers. Does it work
in practice? Well the few examples we have (Afghanistan, Iran, etc.) do
not give us much hope. But it took many decades for the practicality of
communism to sink in.

There were plenty of bombs dropped and people killed in western
capitalism's battle against communism, but my own view of all that warring
is that very little of it made as much difference in the end as the simple
fact that the west, through its own improvement, came to offer many things
that those in communist countries wanted. And when we had something they
wanted, communism collapsed.

We don't have much radical Islam wants right now, but we should. Providing
it will be the only way, and the only honest way, to triumph.

Needless to say, even if Bush was Churchill (ha!) this would not happen
during his term. It's gonna take many many years.

In the meantime, hug an Arab.

--

--kk

Hug an Arab, please.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Kevin Kelly kk@well.com www.well.com/user/kk
149 Amapola Ave, Pacifica, CA 94044 USA
+1-650-355-7676 home office +1-650-359-9701 fax



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 448 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (22:28) * 169 lines 
 

Suicide terrorism: a global threat

Traditionally viewed as a problem affecting the Middle East and South Asia,
the threat posed by suicide terrorism is spreading around the globe. Rohan
Gunaratna assesses the nature of the threat, preventive and reactive
security measures, and examines future trends.

(...)

The threat

Suicide terrorism is the readiness to sacrifice one's life in the process of
destroying or attempting to destroy a target to advance a political goal.
The aim of the psychologically and physically war-trained terrorist is to
die while destroying the enemy target.

In the 1980s suicide terrorism was witnessed in Lebanon, Kuwait and Sri
Lanka. In the 1990s it had spread to Israel, India, Panama, Algeria,
Pakistan, Argentina, Croatia, Turkey, Tanzania and Kenya. With enhanced
migration of terrorist groups from conflict-ridden countries, the formation
of extensive international terrorist infrastructures and the increased reach
of terrorist groups in the post Cold War period, suicide terrorism is likely
to affect Western Europe and North America in the foreseeable future.

There are now 10 religious and secular terrorist groups that are capable of
using suicide terrorism as a tactic against their governments and/or foreign
governments. They are: the Islam Resistance Movement (Hamas) and the
Palestinian Islamic Jihad of the Israeli occupied territories; Hizbullah of
Lebanon; the Egyptian Islamic Jihad (EIJ) and Gamaya Islamiya (Islamic Group
- IG) of Egypt; the Armed Islamic Group (GIA) of Algeria; Barbar Khalsa
International (BKI) of India; the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) of
Sri Lanka; the Kurdistan Worker's Party (PKK) of Turkey; and the Osama bin
Laden network (Al Quaida) of Afghanistan.

There were also four pro-Syrian, Lebanese and Syrian political parties
engaged in suicide terrorism in the 1980s, but they are currently inactive
in the terrorist front. These groups staged around 25 suicide attacks in
Lebanon. As more than one group claimed some of the attacks, perhaps to
diffuse the threat to the group, it is difficult to identify the group
responsible. The groups engaged in suicide operations in Lebanon alongside
Hizbullah were the Natzersit Socialist Party of Syria; the Syrian
Nationalist Party; the Lebanese Communist Party; and the Baath Party of
Lebanon.

There are two types of suicide operations: battlefield and off the
battlefield. In battlefield operations, suicide bombers are integrated into
the attacking groups. Most off-the-battlefield operations have involved
single suicide bombers. In the case of the LTTE and Hamas, there have been
multiple suicide bombers. The targets have been static and mobile, against
infrastructure and humans. Suicide bombers have destroyed military,
political, economic and cultural infrastructure. They have committed
terrorist attacks by killing civilians in buses, crowded places and in
buildings. Suicide bombers have also assassinated political and military
VIPs.

Key characteristics

Examination of suicide terrorism across a range of groups has revealed that
terrorist groups use suicide bombers when they are both strong and weak. In
terms of military and economic power, Hizbullah and the LTTE lead the list
of suicide operations. In terms of numbers, the LTTE has conducted the
largest volume of suicide operations, followed by Hizbullah, Hamas and the
PKK. In terms of range, only some of the groups have operated beyond their
territories.

As well as abortive attempts to conduct suicide operations in Israel,
Hizbullah has successfully conducted suicide operations in Argentina. The
LTTE has conducted one suicide operation in India. It is the only group to
have killed two world leaders - the former prime minister of India, Rajiv
Gandhi, and the president of Sri Lanka, Ranasinghe Premadasa - using male
and female suicide bombers.

The Egyptian groups have conducted suicide operations in Croatia against a
police station and in Pakistan against the Egyptian embassy. Al-Qaeda used
at least one Egyptian suicide bomber in the 1998 East African embassy
bombings. All the other active groups have conducted suicide operations
within their own territory. The PKK has threatened to conduct suicide
operations in Germany where there is a large Kurdish diaspora.

All the suicide terrorist groups have support infrastructures in Europe and
in North America. Leaders and members of these groups are known to travel to
the West, and key activists live either in Europe or in North America
distributing propaganda, raising funds, and in some instances procuring
weapons and shipping them to the various theatres of conflict.

Suicide-capable groups differ in form, size, orientation, goal and support.
A review of the key characteristics of the 10 suicide-capable groups reveals
that any group can acquire suicide bomb technology and engage in suicide
terrorism:

a Al-Qaeda is a mix of several associate groups that are internationally
dispersed. From Afghanistan, Bin Laden provides the overall direction to the
organisation. Al-Qaedaefforts are primarily directed against the USA ('Great
Satan') and Israel ('Little Satan'), and their allies. More recently, Al-
Qaedahas directed its efforts against India on the issue of Kashmir, a
territory disputed between India and Pakistan. The USA has directed its
resources to disrupting Al-Qaedasupport operations in the USA, especially
after the 1998 embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania.

a The Indian counter insurgency specialist, K P S Gill, broke the backbone
of the Sikh insurgents in Punjab, northern India. BKI is fighting for an
independent 'Khalistan' in the predominantly Sikh state of Punjab. It has a
small presence in the target country - India - but enjoys a significant
presence in the diaspora - UK and Canada. In January 2000, when BKI was
planning to conduct its second suicide operation, the Indian security forces
apprehended the bomber.

a The GIA has staged only one suicide operation as part of its fight to
establish an Islamic state in Algeria.

a Hizbullah, responsible for suicide bombing the US Marine Corps barracks
and the headquarters of the French paratroopers in Lebanon in 1983, is
fighting to oust the Israelis from southern Lebanon. Hizbullah is supported
by Iran, a steadfast state sponsor. Today, Hizbullah is also a political
party.

a Hamas and PIJ, operating in Gaza and West Bank, have vowed to destroy the
'Zionist state of Israel'. Currently, Hamas and PIJ are controlled by the
Palestinian Authority under its President, Yasser Arafat. Shin Bet (the
Israeli security agency) and the Mossad (the Israeli external intelligence
agency) have regulated the efficacy of these two groups by removing their
key operatives and military leaders.

In a deep-penetration operation, Shin Bet agents placed a micro explosive
device in the mobile phone of the Hamas suicide bomb maker, Yahiya Aiyyash,
killing him. Due to the efficiency of the countermeasures adopted by Israeli
police, military, intelligence and security organisations, the number of
fatalities and casualties caused by Hamas, the PIJ and Hizbullah bombing has
steadfastly declined. Towards the last few bombings, the explosions only
killed the bomber. Although Hamas is likely to retain a military capability,
the group will probably join the political mainstream in the foreseeable
future. The PIJ became weak after the Mossad assassinated Shikaki, its
military and political commander in Malta.

a The two Egyptian groups - IG and EIJ - are fighting to establish an
Islamic state in Egypt. The leader of the EIJ, Dr Ayman Al-Thawaheri, lives
in Afghanistan and works closely with Bin Laden.

a Until the capture of PKK leader Abdullah Ocalan, the PKK fought for an
independent Kurdistan in southeastern Turkey. Today, the PKK is demanding
autonomy and equal cultural rights.

a The LTTE is fighting for an independent Tamil state in northeastern Sri
Lanka. As the quality of targets chosen by the LTTE is high, it has a
sophisticated training programme that lasts for about a year. As well as
training the bomber, the LTTE research unit tests the effects of explosives
on dogs and goats to ensure that the attack is successful. The list of Sri
Lankan VIPs killed in suicide attacks includes one president, one
presidential candidate, the State Minister of Defence, the Navy Chief and
various area commanders. No country has lost so many leaders in such a short
period of time as Sri Lanka has to the LTTE suicide bombers.

(...)

NUMBER OF SUICIDE ATTACKS BETWEEN 1980-2000


The Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) in Sri Lanka and in India 168
Hizbullah and pro-Syrian groups in Lebanon, Kuwait and Argentina 52
Hamas in Israel 22
The Kurdistan Worker's Party (PKK) in Turkey 15
The Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) in Israel 8
Al Quaida in East Africa 2
The Egyptian Islamic Jihad (EIJ) in Croatia 1
The Islamic Group (IG) in Pakistan 1
Barbar Khalsa International (BKI) in India 1
The Armed Islamic Group (GIA) in Algeria 1



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 449 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (22:29) * 28 lines 
 
Below is a list of STICTLY FORBIDDEN items to be carried on board the
cabin of any BA flight. DRS pages are being updated individually, but you
can use this as a guideline when informing clients. Most are for obvious
reasons, but something most of us never thought of previously.

* Toy or replica guns (plastic or metal)
* Household cutlery
* Knives with blades of any length (including steel nail files)
* Paper knives
* Razor blades (shaving or other)
* Tradesmen's tools
* Darts
* Scissors of any size
* Hypodermic syringes*
* Knitting needles
* Sporting bats (including rackets, cricket bats and golf clubs)
* Billiard, snooker, or pool cues
* Catapults (slingshots)
* Corkscrews with blades attached

*Customers who require the use of hypodermic needles for medical reasons
(for example, diabetics and customers with allergies), will be asked for
proof of medical need. Please be advised that customers carrying any of
the above items (with the exception of hypodermic needles) will be asked
to place it in their hold baggage.

Customers carrying hand baggage only will be asked to surrender the item
for disposal.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 450 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (22:36) * 30 lines 
 
Breakdown of people who are missing and presumed dead by nationality (per
Reuters):

Australia 78
Bangladesh 50
Brazil 30
Britain 300
Canada 78
China 53
Columbia 199
Ecuador 34
Egypt 4
El Salvador 73
Finland 50
Germany 104
Honduras 1
Indonesia 16
Ireland 103
Italy 5
Japan 24
Lebanon 3
Mexico 166
Philippines 435
Russia 100
South Africa 25
South Korea 18
Switzerland 288
Thailand 3

The remainder are Americans.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 451 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (22:36) * 7 lines 
 

Link for the Reuters casualties by nationality figures above:

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20010918/wtc_casualties_graphic.gif

The original source of the numbers is FEMA as of 9/17.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 452 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 18, 2001 (22:44) * 29 lines 
 
I hope not, but here's the rumor:

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAGB8LISRC.html

Relevant section:

"Authorities have grown increasingly certain - from intelligence intercepts,
witness interviews and evidence gathered in hijackers' cars and homes - that
a second wave of violence was planned by collaborators. They said Sept. 22
has emerged as an important date in the evidence, but declined to be more
specific.

Tuesday's attacks were "part of a larger plan with other terrorism acts, not
necessarily hijacking of airplanes," said Sen. Bob Graham, D-Fla., chairman
of the Senate Intelligence Committee. "Those acts were going to occur in the
United States and elsewhere in the world."

The FBI said it has issued an advisory to fire departments across the
country to increase security and guard against the theft of any ambulances
or fire trucks, which could be used in bombing attacks. The bureau said the
warning was precautionary. "

For more on your air travel safety, go to this site and read ALPA
Security Alert Bulletin 2001-2, detailing such important items as the
use of the emergency axe in the cockpit against suicidal hi-jackers and
planning for emergency depressurizations and violent aircraft
maneuvers to disable and disorient hi-jackers:

http://www.awalpa.org/


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 453 of 783: suzee   (suzee202000) * Wed, Sep 19, 2001 (03:12) * 51 lines 
 

World Leaders List Conditions on Cooperation

New York Times
September 19, 2001
by PATRICK E. TYLER and JANE PERLEZ

(Excerpt)

WASHINGTON, Sept. 18 — After a week of unconditional support from abroad, the Bush administration confronted its first significant difficulties today in building a broad international coalition to support using military power and other means against a still-faceless terror network rooted in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

A procession of world leaders was either on the way or on the phone to Washington seeking to convince the White House that only a multilateral approach based on consultation, hard evidence and United Nations support would justify the use of military power in response to the devastating attacks last week.

Today, President Jiang Zemin of China telephoned Prime Minister Tony Blair of Britain and President Jacques Chirac of France as each prepared for meetings with President Bush. He admonished his Western counterparts to tell Mr. Bush that "any military action against terrorism" should be based on "irrefutable evidence and should aim at clear targets so as to avoid casualties to innocent people," according to official news reports from China.

Mr. Jiang also telephoned President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia, and although the two leaders denounced "terrorism in all its forms," they spoke just of cooperating with each other and the United Nations to "develop a mechanism for fighting terrorism," the reports said.

As the Bush administration sought through White House consultations and overseas missions to strengthen the sinews of an antiterror effort whose scale and objective remain unknown, a number of countries began to calculate the potential cost of their taking part, and to try to exact a price for it from the United States.

For a number of Middle Eastern countries, the price was straightforward. The United States has to become more deeply involved in ending the violence and in reinvigorating the Israeli-Palestinian peace effort.

But it was clear that a convulsion in Israel, the West Bank or Gaza could threaten Washington's efforts to maintain support in moderate Arab countries, a problem that Mr. Bush's father faced in the 1991 coalition that defeated Iraq in Kuwait.

"The people that we expect to work with closely in combating terrorism," a spokesman for the State Department, Richard A. Boucher, said, are "interested in the Israel- Palestinian situation," and their attitudes toward America's war on terrorism are "linked in people's minds" to America's commitment to Arab-Israeli peace.

Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal of Saudi Arabia, is due to arrive on Wednesday with a large contingent of Saudi intelligence officers and their files on Osama bin Laden and his Al Qaeda network.

But other potential American allies raised urgent economic and political agendas that officials said Washington was beginning to address. Pakistan, in exchange for whatever bases or rights to fly in its air space that it provides, would like an agreement to end 11 years of sanctions, to restore the flow of American arms and to reduce a punishing debt load.

Russia, if it is called on, has a clear set of grievances over NATO expansion toward its borders and criticism of its military campaign in Chechnya. Foreign Minister Igor D. Ivanov arrives on Wednesday. Administration officials said they were eager to establish Moscow's price to open the northern corridor to Afghanistan through Tajikistan, a former Soviet republic.

A number of Russian generals have questioned whether Russia could join an American-led antiterror campaign whose operational objectives remain unclear. One high- ranking military officer told a newspaper, Vremya Novestei, that "fighting terrorists is like trying to rid oneself of roaches in a block of flats."
"You do it in one flat," the officer said, "and they go to another."

Nowhere was the sense of alarm over American plans more apparent than in the warning of one of America's staunchest Middle East allies, President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt. In remarks broadcast on Monday night, he implored the United States not to undertake military action that might kill innocent civilians, divide Christians against Muslims and further inflame attitudes against American policy in the region.

Mr. Mubarak, like Mr. Jiang, urged that "hard evidence" be the basis for any military action and that "countries not be punished" for the actions of "individuals." He called on the United Nations to organize an international convention against terrorism that would develop a common program of action for all countries.

His remarks were echoed by other leaders in the region where Washington has yet to establish a firm diplomatic beachhead in dealing with intractable and volatile conflicts.

While Egypt and Jordan were both crucial allies in the 1991 coalition against President Saddam Hussein of Iraq, diplomats from both countries said they did not expect to be called on to provide bases or other direct military support. Both said they were providing intelligence information on terrorist groups to the Central Intelligence Agency under longstanding agreements.

Beneath the veneer of solidarity and support in Europe, misgivings can be heard about how Mr. Bush plans to proceed. Germany has repeatedly called for a multilateral approach to the problem and warned against America's going it alone.

Speaking at the White House today, Mr. Chirac pointedly declined to accept Mr. Bush's characterization of the fight against terrorism as a war. "I don't know whether we should use the word `war,' " the French leader said.

Diplomats noted that Mr. Bush sent a high-level State Department envoy, John R. Bolton, to Moscow on Monday to push forward on American missile defense plans, even though a decision by Mr. Bush to withdraw unilaterally from the Antiballistic Missile Treaty of 1972 would raise questions of a return to a "go it alone" ethos in international affairs.


http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/19/international/19DIPL.html



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 454 of 783: Rob Glennie  (AotearoaKiwi) * Wed, Sep 19, 2001 (03:17) * 10 lines 
 
Hi all

MSG 436 sums up just about every country capable of providing aid bar New Zealand. Do we not exist? Last I looked 3.81 million New Zealanders, 46 million sheep as well as Kiwis, Takahe's Pukeko's Kaka, Kereru, among other birds, reptiles, fish, spiders and insects can be found on two large islands and a host of smaller islands grouped together under the popular name "Godzone".

On to more relevant matters though. New Zealand has offered intelligence assistance but nothing else as we seem to be preoccupied with Air New Zealands struggle to stay afloat and the fact that our armed forces have been degraded so badly that the East Timor peace keeping operation is about as far as we would get anyway. We could have offered more if so much money was not being lost in ideological changes to governing structures for everything everytime Labour and National swapped places in the Beehive.
I mean ideally we could have bought the 28 F-16s the United States was prepared to give us but Helen Clark's excuse was they have never been used so why keep them? So what if they were not used, having them meant our servicemen were technically competent, that we could participate in defence exercises and have a small but modern air combat force. We could have gotten one or two frigates that Labour was talking about but I suspect they sold out to the Greens. Typical.
So here we are with a poorly equipped airforce that just lost the "force", and a downsized Navy. Great.

Rob



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 455 of 783: Eileen  (EileenG) * Wed, Sep 19, 2001 (08:20) * 2 lines 
 
(Rachael) what hasn't been on the news, but I'm not the only one noticing it, a couple of friends have said the same in other parts of the country, there's been lots more movement of military aircraft around here the last couple of days than would be normal.
It's the same over here. The skies over the greater DC area are humming.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 456 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Wed, Sep 19, 2001 (08:55) * 1 lines 
 
Thanks for the lengthy list of positions by country, Suzee. Everybody, time to put those tax refunds back in the mail to Washington. It's going to cost us jillions to *morally* convince some of these countries. :-(


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 457 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 19, 2001 (09:28) * 30 lines 
 
Tamim Ansar (cited above) is supposed to be on Charlie Rose sometime and
was on NPR being interviewed by Bill Moyers the other night.

Pat Holt has a piece on him

http://www.holtuncensored.com/members/index.html

Robert McNeil who left the Newshour in 95 has come out of retirement to
help with their coverage. His first interview was today

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/foreign_correspondence/july-
dec01/terrorism_9-18.html

dec01/terrorism_9-18.html>

One exchange:

ROBERT MACNEIL: Steve Erlanger, how is Mr. Bush's leadership and his
rhetoric perceived where you are, in Germany?

STEVE ERLANGER: A little worrying, quite honestly. People are being very
polite, but they see, often, the kind of terror in Mr. Bush's eyes when he
goes off of his script. They worry he will feel too much political
pressure to react too soon and in the wrong way. They are hopeful that he
will listen to his senior advisers, and they think that he will, and they
have a little bit of odd relief, almost, that for an administration that,
so far, has regarded relations with Europe as very much secondary, if not
tertiary, it is now discovering that, as usual, in a crisis America's best
friends are on this continent.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 458 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 19, 2001 (09:56) * 79 lines 
 
Robin McNeil interviewed four overseas New York Times bureau chiefs.

McNeil: Can I ask each of you how Washington's leadership and behavior is
perceived where you are? Warren Hoge, after the first wave of solidarity
and sympathy [the British bureau chief had said the British felt
particularly targeted by the attack, with some 300 UK citizens probably
dead], which was so apparent in western Europe, and particularly in
Britain, where the queen led a service in St. Paul's-- You've all
reported
some degree of second thoughts, backpedaling, a little--voices of caution
raised. How has that been affected by Mr. Bush's leadership, his
rhetoric,
the actions he's taken so far. Does that inspire confidence and
reassurance?

Hoge, NYT London Bureau Chief: I think Colin Powell inspires more
confidence. Many Britons have said to me they feel much more comfortable
with George W. Bush now that Colin Powell seems to be permanently at his
side. Colin Powell speaks the language of diplomacy; he is somebody who
understands both the capabilities and the limitations of military power--
this is what the British think. So they have a much higher degree of
comfort with his kind of talking than the more bellicose language of
President Bush. So, they're hoping for Bush, they're behind Bush--this
is
a very pro-American place in Europe--but there's a little bit of worry
that
he's untested, and also that he's surrounded by some other people who
might
have a little more hotheaded reaction to what must be done now than Colin
Powell seems to be having.

McNeil: And Steve Erlanger, how is Mr. Bush's leadership and his rhetoric
perceived where you are, in Germany?

Erlanger, NYT Hamburg Bureau Chief: A little worrying, quite honestly.
People are being very polite. But they see, often, the kind of terror in
Mr. Bush's eyes when he goes off of his script. They worry that he will
feel too much political pressure to react too soon, and in the wrong way.
They are hopeful that he will listen to his senior advisors, and they
think
that he will. And they have a little bit of odd relief, almost, that for
an administration that so far has regarded relations with Europe as very
much secondary, if not tertiary--it is now discovering that as usual, in
a
crisis, America's best friends are on this continent.

McNeil: And in Moscow, Michael Wines, how is the Washington leadership
under Mr. Bush perceived?

Wines, NYT Moscow Bureau Chief: Well, I think that there has been a
great
deal of uneasiness with the unilateralism that the Russians think that
the
United States has displayed, mostly in the last year, but again going
back
to Yugoslavia. And I think in this case there is great hope, among,
certainly among Russian people, and among the leadership, that this will
turn out to be something of a turning point in American-Russian
relations: a
chance for the Americans to consult with the Russians in reality, for a
change. The Russians here feel like they're somewhat ignored in national
relations. And so they're hoping for a much more cooperative attitude.
But, I have to say, so far, there's great suspicion, and I think they're
waiting for the Americans to come up with a plan. And when they see that
plan, I think they'll have a better idea.

McNeil: And in Cairo, Neil McFarquhar, how is Mr. Bush's leadership
perceived there?

McFarquhar, NYT Cairo Bureau Chief: Across the Middle East the one
exception in this thing has been Iraq, which has been attacking the
United
States, what it calls its "cowboy policies". But the one thing that's
upset
the Arabs is, apparently, in one speech Mr. Bush used the words "crusades",
and that word is fraught with a lot of terrible memories in the Middle
East, because of course the Crusades were used to attack the region. So there
has been a lot of discussion, that if this is a new Crusade, they don't want
to be part of it


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 459 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Wed, Sep 19, 2001 (10:08) * 6 lines 
 
I couldn't believe Bush used the words crusade! Reminiscent of Dan Quayle there.

Thanks for the lengthy list of positions by country, Suzee. Everybody, time to put those tax refunds back in the mail to Washington. It's going to cost us jillions to *morally* convince some of these countries. :-(
Yes, Thank you Suzee. The U$ barganing table is open and the odd thing is that the price of gold is not reacting. Is there a conspiracy to keep the price of gold stable? What is going on there?

My very good friend lost a friend on the Fl#11 and my brother has many friends that are missing at WTC. And now we are told that Sept. 22nd is a date to watch out for. :-( I do not sleep well at night.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 460 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 19, 2001 (16:57) * 4 lines 
 
A Washington Post article on the threat of bio-terrorism:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41225-2001Sep16.html



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 461 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Wed, Sep 19, 2001 (16:58) * 4 lines 
 
Wolfie, I tried, and since I am not listed on your other conferences as having access, I could not add them. I did put it on SpringArk.
I like the ribbon on that Google.com site, too. I wish it lead back to that site and I would install it in a second.

Terry, the programming in my cfconfig file is easy enough to copy and paste. Have at it!!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 462 of 783: Echo  (Echo) * Wed, Sep 19, 2001 (17:00) * 4 lines 
 
Breakdown of people who are missing and presumed dead by nationality (per
Reuters)


Does that include confirmed dead? A young Polish woman journalist died there, too, on her honeymoon. Her husband is fighting for his life in a NY hospital.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 463 of 783: Echo  (Echo) * Wed, Sep 19, 2001 (17:03) * 3 lines 
 
on the threat of bio-terrorism

The unexplained, mysteriously spreading and still not defeated outbreak of foot and mouth in the UK may be a testing ground.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 464 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 19, 2001 (17:06) * 3 lines 
 
http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,552749,00.html

Comprehensive and unreported in US news sources.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 465 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 19, 2001 (18:09) * 3 lines 
 
As for Afghanistan, check
out:http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2001/June/Afghan/index.html
for a brilliant description of that country by an Iranian film make


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 466 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 19, 2001 (18:50) * 10 lines 
 
Why?

from The Independent (London), by Robert Fisk, 8/29/01:

http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=91066

and again, eighteen days later, 9/16/01:

http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=94254



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 467 of 783: rachael  (rachael) * Wed, Sep 19, 2001 (18:57) * 5 lines 
 
interesting to read what Warren Hoge said - I think its fair comment; have to say, one of the things that impressed me in the first few days was the way that very senior people seemed to make themselves available for lengthy and open press conferences - I'm not sure you'd see that here (in the UK). And yes I'm impressed with Colin Powell - the fact that he has such experience makes him seem very reassuring - don't know if Americans feel the same.

for info (mainly to UK people) today's paper hads a full page ad for the World Trade Centre Disaster Fund www.wtcfund.org.uk and says "This is an hour of need for our friends in America. Let's show them that our actions are as loud as our words" If you're not already a Red Cross contributor, the website might be worth a visit.

One of the saddest things I read today was about the families of some of the British victims flying into NYC, and my heart goes out to all those of whatever nationality who are dealing with this unimaginable heartbreak. My 12 y o was in NYC with her father a couple of months ago, and has been very distressed this week - tonight she said "I can't believe that something I've seen that was so big and amazing just isn't there now".


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 468 of 783: Beth  (Bethanne) * Wed, Sep 19, 2001 (19:10) * 17 lines 
 
There is a quote in this weeks edition of Newsweek by a Wall St employee

" I never thought I'd see the day when the World Trade Center would pass
me by in a dump truck "

It's funny in a sad, sad, kind of a way.

AOL is reporting that the actor James Woods was on Flight 11 Boston to LA
on Sep 4th, the same one that crashed, a week later. He was in first
class with only 4 other passengers. They were all Arabs. They spoke to
no one, ate nothing, drank nothing, read nothing and watched no movies.
He said they all just sat in their seats starring off into space. It
creeped him out, so he mentioned it to a stewardess. She shrugged if off,
but when they got to LA, he reported it to the FBI. The FBI in LA are
confirming this.

So it looks like they did a "test run" the week before.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 469 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 19, 2001 (19:28) * 49 lines 
 



Peggy Noonan writes about how "we live in such unprecedented comfort!
But can it last!"

http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=95001157

During the summer, when you were a kid, your dad worked a few towns away
and left at 8:30; Mom stayed home smoking and talking and ironing. You
biked to the local school yard for summer activities--twirling, lanyard
making, dodgeball--until afternoon. Then you'd go home and play in the
street. At 5:30 Dad was home and at 6 there was dinner--meat loaf, mashed
potatoes and canned corn. Then TV and lights out.

Now it's more like this: Dad goes to work at 6:15, to the city, where he
is an executive; Mom goes to work at the bank where she's a vice
president, but not before giving the sitter the keys and bundling the kids
into the car to go to, respectively, soccer camp, arts camp, Chinese
lessons, therapy, the swim meet, computer camp, a birthday party, a play
date. Then home for an impromptu barbecue of turkey burgers and a salad
with fresh Parmesan cheese followed by summer homework, Nintendo, and TV
--the kids lying splayed on the couch, dead eyed, like denizens of a
Chinese opium den--followed by "Hi Mom," "Hi, Dad," and bed.

Life is so much more interesting now! It's not boring, like 1957. There
are things to do: The culture is broader, more sophisticated; there's more
wit and creativity to be witnessed and enjoyed. Moms, kids and dads have
more options, more possibilities. This is good. The bad news is that our
options leave us exhausted when we pursue them and embarrassed when we
don't.

. . .

If someone does the big, terrible thing to New York or Washington, there
will be a lot of chaos and a lot of lines going down, a lot of damage, and
a lot of things won't be working so well anymore. And thus a lot more
. . . time. Something tells me we won't be teleconferencing and faxing
about the Ford account for a while.

The psychic blow--and that is what it will be as people absorb it, a blow,
an insult that reorders and changes--will shift our perspective and
priorities, dramatically, and for longer than a while. Something tells me
more of us will be praying, and hard, one side benefit of which is that
there is sometimes a quality of stopped time when you pray. You get
outside time.





 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 470 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Wed, Sep 19, 2001 (19:39) * 27 lines 
 
Answers hidden in lost former black Seminole village

By SCOTT MCCABE, The Palm Beach Post
An AP Member Exchange

BUSHNELL — Forty-five minutes west of Walt Disney's make-believe history,
archaeologists dig for real artifacts.
Hunched over a shallow, square excavation, they search for Peliklakaha, the
largest Black Seminole village known to historians, a place where different
cultures joined in a fight for freedom more than 200 years ago. Until now, say
University of Florida archaeologists, Peliklakaha existed only in the writings of
military leaders and a painting commissioned by the U.S. general who had
burned it down.
Archaeologists hope to unearth clues that documents can't provide, secrets
about the life of a hidden people. They hope Peliklakaha will reveal whether
the inhabitants developed a unique lifestyle with their new status as free
people in Florida.
"The story of the Black Seminoles is a tremendous story about a successful
effort by slaves gaining their freedom before the Civil War," said Delray
Beach archaeologist Bill Steele, who discovered the site in 1993. "That's why
Peliklakaha is so significant."
The dig could establish a new focus in archaeology on cultures that combine
African and Native American influences, said Terry Weik, the UF graduate
student heading the excavation.

more... http://www.naplesnews.com/01/09/florida/d648785a.htm



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 471 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 19, 2001 (20:28) * 1 lines 
 
The James Woods thing, if real, has all kinds of ramifications? When did he callthe FBI? What date? Was this a dry run or an aborted attempt? Did the hijackers make any calls on their Airphones? And were any of these men on the actual suicide hijacking missions? Now James Woods will be a witness if any of these men are apprehended, after sitting on a flight with them he could surely identify them. Pretty creepy, alright.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 472 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 19, 2001 (20:30) * 213 lines 
 
Subject: Waiting
Date: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 11:29 AM
From: Womack, Jack

Waiting, today, for whatever is going to happen next.

It does seem as if considerable thought is going into whatever the response
will be. Reports from Indian & Pakistani newspapers are saying that the
special force units (Rangers, SEALS, Green Berets, several other groups
including one we have never heard of before, "Night Stalkers." -- this goes
into my phrasebook of new terms, along with "Frozen Zone") are already
moving into place.

I suspect something along the lines of the following will happen, whenever
it happens:

1. Ground forces at this stage will consist solely of those guys, or some of
those guys. More are preparing to go over, it's said, but I can't help but
think that the US is keeping in mind what happened to the USSR during their
ten-year war. (It would be absolute madness to send a large number of
soldiers into Afghanistan, but that doesn't mean it won't happen, sooner or
later.)

2. Bombing from the air will occur prior to the guys going in; I have a
suspicion that for appearance's sake if nothing else, this will be
Dresden/Tokyo-size bombing although there isn't much left to bomb. From
today's Times:

"When we looked at Afghanistan before, the sense was we were going to bomb
them up to the stone age," said one former Clinton administration official
familiar with the planning of past military strikes against Mr. bin Laden's
terrorist network.

The FBI is now saying that not long prior to the event, the pilot of the
plane that first struck the Towers met with an Iraqi intelligence agent.
Iraq is vigorously denying this and evidently claiming this story came from
the UK.

If they're in the process of ascertaining that Hussein was in any way
connected (it's hard not to suspect that he is, if only because the
opportunity to get back at Bush Sr. by way of Bush Jr. would I think be
pretty hard to pass up) they're keeping it *way* under wraps. Because --

3. If Hussein was even minimally involved, it's a pretty safe bet Baghdad
will also get the Dresden/Tokyo treatment, and totally without warning.
After that, it's anyone's guess -- anything from ongoing small operations
for the next five, ten, twenty years, to World War III.

One view in the Russian papers is that if this were to be handled in the
traditional Central Asian way, the Taliban themselves would kill bin Laden,
and then turn over his body claiming that Western intelligence forces did
it.

Ah, the Russian mind....being capable of Russian-level cynicism, and
possessed of the ability to endlessly extrapolate negative transactions,
it's easy for me to imagine one scenario being the US setting off a nuclear
bomb in northern Afghanistan in the midst of ground assaults, air bombing,
etc.; thereafter claiming that the bomb belonged to the terrorists, that we
found out about this just in time, clearly they were going to use it, and
that therefore we have ample cause to do whatever the hell we want,
beginning with taking out the capitals of Iraq, Iran...

It is, of course, fortunate that I am not President.

Enough punditizing, and back to the home front: the windows of the stores
on Fifth & 57th filled with flags, or memorial bunting, or black curtains.
Police cadets (having not yet been graduated) keeping an eye on traffic in
midtown, and regular police as ever, everywhere. Military humvees heading
down Fifth Avenue along with delivery trucks and stretch limos.

I saw my therapist yesterday for the first time in two weeks (I see her on
Tuesdays, but had no Sept. 11 session), and talked to her about depression,
anxiety, the new numbness of being which I am beginning to think may have a
certain permanence about it, now; about my stepmother's death the week prior
to last, forgotten in the rush of events; about anger, and rage.

(A minor interruption just now as a workman came into my office. "Just
checking your electric outlet," he said. "The plates." Then, as he leaves.
stated from over his shoulder, "Don't want you to get blown up.")

I've always been an *extremely* angry person. For most of my life I
automatically turned this inward, with the result being (as noted yesterday,
I think) fairly deep and ongoing depression (which is also, at least
partially, hereditary/chemical) With four years of therapy, beginning after
I came out of the hospital back in 1997, I have managed to be able to get a
lot of what was in, out; and feel much better for it. For the past year I've
been doing much better at getting anger out before it becomes internalized
rage.

Unfortunately, if anger has no ready focus; or if anger rises toward a
number of situations, or people, or whatever, very suddenly, it can't help
but be turned inward, at least initially. And it grows, and it grows, and it
grows; and it either stays inside, and becomes depression (which is what has
been happening, I'm sure not only to me) or comes out in -- well, random
acts of senseless violence. And on a national scale...

But I am only going to speak now of what has made me angry, this past week.
I am furious at the perpetrators of this horror. At the hijackers and at all
who consciously helped them.

I am furious at the US, for having let intelligence slip to such a level
that this could have happened.

I am furious at airlines that cut corners on security and hired guards at
six dollars an hour.

I am furious at pundits, who are presently coming at us from all directions;
whether they be Jerry Falwell saying that liberals and gays brought about
these events, causing God to turn Its back; or Susan Sontag saying in this
week's New Yorker that courage is "a morally neutral virtue," and that the
hijackers were, in context, courageous; or Howard Fineman in Newsweek
writing about how baby boomers, such as himself, have always been too prone
to self-loathing, prior to his saying immediately thereafter that the rest
of our lives are going to be miserable and we deserve it for having been
miserable selfish bastards; or the local idiot newscaster on Channel 2 (a
notorious idiot, who has bounced from station to station for the past twenty
years, always landing on his feet) who said "we've got a heartwarming story
coming up," immediately prior to going to the burn unit at Cornell Hospital;
or that coke-addled reprobate Taki in the NY Press saying that we wouldn't
have this trouble with the Arabs if it wasn't for the Jews.

I am furious at God, if God there be.

I believe there is God, in some form. God leaves us to our own devices.
And I believe there is good and evil. That most of the time, things are a
mixture of both, to one degree or another; but that some people, some
actions, some events, contain nothing but evil, in the truest and classical
sense.

I believe that what happened last Tuesday was an evil act, unjustified and
in no way the moral equivalent of anything the US government has done in the
past or is doing now.

Valeria and I had an extremely long discussion last night that often became
an argument, lasting until one AM.

"What about Hiroshima? or Nagasaki? or slavery, or what happened to Native
Americans?"

Yes, the US has done terrible things in the past. Some have arisen from
arrogance, some from ignorance, some from both.

Some, such as slavery, or giving smallpox-laced blankets to the
Cherokees, should not have been justified in the past and cannot be
justified
now.

Some, such as dropping the bombs on Japan, seemed to be the only thing to do
at the time. Perhaps it was, perhaps not; strong arguments can be made on
both sides, and will be made from now for the next hundred years.
Some, such as rounding up Japanese-Americans after Pearl Harbor, was a
dreadful action that even at the time some (though not enough) felt to be
wrong.

"They [meaning the hijackers, specifically] believed we're evil," Valeria
said. "It's the way they see things. We have to understand that."

To which, really, I could only say the easiest of responses:
"Hitler believed Jews are evil. It's the way he saw things."

Point being that yes, you could say the hijackers believed themselves to be
justified. You could say Hitler believed himself to be justified, or Lenin
and Stalin believed themselves to be justified. And in historical context,
their rise to prominence can be understood; the reasons why they did what
they did can be comprehended, at least in basic outline; their actions
demonstrate intelligence, and purpose, and rationale. You could call them
all geniuses, in their own particular ways, and not be technically
incorrect.

But the premises from which they began were horribly, horribly wrong; and at
some point, through their actions, they crossed the line that separates all
of Civilization, however small or advanced the civilization -- whether it be
Western, Eastern, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Asian, African, Australian --
from the monstrous. Making a conscious decision, at some point, to stop
seeing people as people (whether they be enemy or not) to seeing people as
disposable tools, or vermin; or to seeing them not at all -- not simply for
the duration of an emergency, or a war, but forever.

Seeing light, yet choosing dark, thereafter actively working to switch off
light wherever it may be found.

Because that's where these actions differ from others. That once the choice
is made, that's the end of discussion. The US has at least tried to correct
the wrongs it has done in the past, however belatedly, however ineptly,
however badly; or however well, or however thoroughly. (As have many if not
most other countries as well, some of course doing so far more effectively
than others.)

In other words, we realized we were wrong, and did awful things believing
they were right, *and then began trying to make amends for what, many times,
was unforgivable.* And thereafter at least tried to do better, the next
time.

Were we not to have at least partially learned from some of our mistakes,
for example, the government would today be issuing edicts to round up all
Arab-Americans, to be resettled in the deserts in the West. *All.*

But that isn't happening, neither will it happen under present
circumstances. And were it to be tried, even in what has become wartime, the
protests would be enormous, and effective.

We are, slightly, more civilized than we were; and considering human
history, this is progress.

By 12:30 AM V & I finally began to understand each other again, and went to
sleep at peace. We are married, and happily married, yet the discussion of
these things is hard, painfully hard; and angry, at times. It is remarkable,
I think, that the discourse thus far has been as restrained as it has been,
imbecile NY Post editorials and certain pundits notwithstanding. I hope I've
not come across as either an imbecile or a pundit, writing this.

By having written this, I am feeling much less angry.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 473 of 783: Beth  (Bethanne) * Wed, Sep 19, 2001 (20:42) * 1 lines 
 
Terry, I am gonna e mail you the James Woods article. My copy and paste fuctions never work here at Drool. Its very odd. So I'll just e mail it to you and, you can decide if you want to post it here.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 474 of 783: Culcha (terry) * Wed, Sep 19, 2001 (20:44) * 39 lines 
 
I found something on http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover.shtml

Tuesday, Sept. 18, 2001 9:38 a.m. EDT

Twin Tower Terrorists May Have Made Dry Run

Did terrorist hijackers who slammed two Boeing 767s into New York's Twin
Towers on Tuesday stage a dress rehearsal a week before the attack?

That's the intriguing question raised by the account of actor James Woods,
who is reportedly telling friends that he saw a suspicious group of Middle
Eastern men behaving in a "clandestine" manner during the earlier flight
from Boston to Los Angeles.

Exactly a week before the devastating attacks, Woods boarded a plane at
Boston's Logan Airport, the same departure point the terrorists used.

Woods sat in first class, according to friends, two of whom repeated his
account to the New York Post's Cindy Adams. He was alone except for four
other passengers - all Middle Eastern males.

The actor immediately noticed the men behaving "bizarrely." They neither
drank, nor ate a morsel nor spoke out loud for the entire flight. There
was no reading, no slouching, no nodding off.

"They were clandestine. Spoke only to each other in audible tones. And
stared straight ahead," Adams was told.

"They were clearly very uptight," Woods' friends quoted him as saying.

The actor was sufficiently troubled by their behavior to report it to a
flight attendant - but she shrugged the incident off. When Woods landed he
informed authorities on the ground, who reportedly "seemed unwilling to
become involved."

The day after the attacks on New York and Washington, Woods called the
FBI. At 7 a.m. Thursday investigators summoned the actor for an immediate
interview.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 475 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 19, 2001 (15:56) * 6 lines 
 

I don't quite understand how they could not speak out loud and speak to
other other in audible tones at the same time. I'm still wondering how
authentic this story is, waiting for Bethanne's email to find out more.
It should be in the Ne York Post in Cindy Adams column it sounds like.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 476 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 19, 2001 (16:28) * 30 lines 
 
From the horses mouth, NY Post gossip columnist Cindy Adams:

September 18, 2001 -- Actor's travel tale is plane-ly chilling

MOVIE STAR James Woods met with the FBI this week on the events that happened last week. It was a real-life scenario. It was chilling.

Jimmy is devoted to his mom, whom fans will recall was his date at the Oscars. She lives in Boston. He lives in Los Angeles. He sees her often. He thus makes the Logan-LAX run regularly.

Exactly one week before Terrorist Tuesday, Jimmy made the identical flight from Boston's Logan Airport to L.A.

He related this episode to two friends of mine Sunday. Both repeated it to me almost verbatim. As we go to press I have been unable to reach James Woods, whom I know. I therefore repeat this story using his words as they were told to me.

James Woods sat in first class. The section was empty except for four other passengers. All male. All Middle Eastern.

He was acutely aware of them because of what he termed their "bizarre" behavior. On this entire flight which crosses the whole country not once did one of them partake of a single morsel. Not one even had a sip of water. They did not read. Did not nod off for an instant. Did not slouch down. Did not make themselves comfortable. Did not say a word to the attendants. Did not speak aloud. They were clandestine. Spoke only to each other in inaudible tones. And stared straight ahead.

Jimmy is quoted as saying, "They were clearly very uptight."

An actor reads body language. An actor is trained to see into someone. To silently probe their psyche. An actor's laserlike slice into the heart of a foreign situation or human being is what enables him to don the mantle and play that other person. An actor's insight into behavior and manner can be as telling as a photograph.

Award-winning James Woods felt uneasy. Sufficiently concerned to mention what he'd noticed to a flight attendant who shrugged it off. He also mentioned it to ground authorities who seemed unwilling to become involved.

Wednesday, the day after the World Trade Center hit, Jimmy rang the FBI to report his experience. They said thousands of tips were coming in and they're checking all out as fast as they can. Thursday, 7 a.m., they called and said they're coming to see him. Like now.

A team arrived at his door. They said something to the effect of, "We cannot tell you anything. We cannot answer any of your questions. You can think whatever you choose to think. Now tell us every detail you remember."

As is now known, not the airlines, not Logan security - which Woods supposedly said, "was so lax that I particularly noted it" - not our own intelligence operation picked up vibes in advance of Terrorist Tuesday because, ostensibly, the strike was so swift. However, this would appear that, in fact, somebody should have picked it up because it was not so swift. Because these men had made a dry run exactly the week before.

Multiple men. Non-American nationals. Traveling in one group. Arabic names. Foreign passports. Reportedly paying cash. This does not trip some computer somehow, somewhere, someplace? And barring an omniscent all-seeing, all-noticing James Woods being a fellow passenger, might similar advance teams not have replicated this same type trial run on at least four other planes?



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 477 of 783: suzee   (suzee202000) * Wed, Sep 19, 2001 (16:30) * 27 lines 
 
I watched all ofthe PBS programs last night. It wasn't exactly the most cheerful
evening - I am going to try to be less attentive to the tv tonight.

The White House has been trying to backtrack on the "crusade" comment. The root-em-toot-em cowboy image seems to have been reinforced by the "dead or alive" comment also. Even Blair seems less than thrilled with that one.


Tuesday September 18 3:46 PM ET
White House Apologizes for Word

WASHINGTON (AP) - President Bush (news - web sites) regrets using the word ``crusade,'' with all its historical connotations of religious war, to describe his campaign against terrorists, his spokesman said Tuesday.
Bush only meant to say that his is a ``broad cause'' to stamp out terrorism worldwide, White House press secretary Ari Fleischer (news - web sites) said.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010918/us/attacks_crusade_3.html
----------------

No 10 fails to echo 'dead or alive' call
By George Jones, Political Editor
(Filed: 19/09/2001)(The Telegraph)

BRITAIN refused yesterday to endorse President Bush's declaration that he wanted Osama bin Laden "dead or alive".
Tony Blair's official spokesman said the Prime Minister wanted those responsible for the atrocities "brought to account".

http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/09/19/nbrit19.xml






 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 478 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 19, 2001 (23:26) * 57 lines 
 
Feedback for Freedom

We find ourselves surrounded by cries for retribution ringing out in
response to the attacks on the East coast. Fanned by the media, this
primitive urge to make others suffer equally or more will have its political
and military effect. We are probably on the horrific spiral envisioned by
the perpetrators of the attack.

My engineering experience warns me that this is not a "converging" situation
- it will not settle out in stability, but will thrash madly about until so
much is destroyed that nothing can continue. If we want the situation to
achieve stability we should consider some principles of feedback design.

An engineer designing a feedback system takes an "active element" capable of
exerting the maximum force needed and tames it by placing it within an
environment that guarantees operation within the intended parameters. For an
oscillator, the environment will say: "do anything you want, but only at
this frequency". For an amplifier, the message is "do anything you want, but
only if the output is in this proportion of the input".

Taking this metaphor further, if we want a world of stability we must
surround those elements capable of exerting force with environments in which
the force is limited and directed. Not by meeting force with greater force,
but by depriving force of support when wrongly directed. This applies not
only to obvious kinds of military force but also to all the sorts of power
which leave people at a disadvantage in their lives.

Applying this approach, it is clear that the US should be applying massive
pressure upon Israel and the Palestinian Authority to settle up, even if
it's not the ideal unattainable by either side. This would remove a serious
motivating and disrupting factor from the situation.

We should be applying all possible means to change the environment in
Afghanistan so that the people are empowered to overthrow the Taliban.
Foreign invaders do not fare well in that country - the only people who can
effect change are the Afghanis themselves.

We should turn many of the billions appropriated by Congress to the
alleviation of poverty in the poor nations of the world, especially the
Mideast, through education and micro-lending, for example. Work from the
bottom up, changing the political and economic environment for the better.

And the "we" here also means we as individuals and groups, not simply the
government. Citizen initiative can be powerful. We can use it to make cracks
in the image of a monolithic passive, compliant populace perpetuated by the
media. Cracks like this have a way of propagating.

All of this would be profoundly subversive to systems of power. That is the
point. Building feedback loops around those power structures will protect
not only ourselves but our world.

(Lee Felsenstein, , is an electronic design engineer and EFF
Pioneer Award winner who played a part both in the early development of
personal computers and in the Free Speech Movement in Berkeley. Permission
is granted to reproduce this work only in its entirety, including this
notice.)



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 479 of 783: suzee   (suzee202000) * Thu, Sep 20, 2001 (01:36) * 16 lines 
 
I wonder how many "test runs" these guys made.


James Woods Reports Suspicious Passengers to FBI
September 19, 2001
Reuters

Woods declined to publicly discuss his experience, first reported
by New York Post columnist Cindy Adams and confirmed by his spokeswoman,
Susan Madore. In a brief statement, the actor said, "I think it prudent
not to comment on this and let the FBI continue do their job ..."

Article:

http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml?type=entertainmentnews&StoryID=231786



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 480 of 783: suzee   (suzee202000) * Thu, Sep 20, 2001 (01:43) * 38 lines 
 
Secret Plans for 10-year War

THE TIMES (LONDON)
THURSDAY SEPTEMBER 20 2001
BY MICHAEL EVANS, DEFENCE EDITOR

Generals rule out 'D-Day invasion'

AMERICA and Britain are producing secret plans to launch a ten-year “war on terrorism” — Operation Noble Eagle — involving a completely new military and diplomatic strategy to eliminate terrorist networks and cells around the world.
Despite the mass build-up of American forces in the Gulf and the Indian Ocean, there will be no “D-Day invasion” of Afghanistan and no repeat of the US-led Operation Desert Storm against Iraq in 1991, defence sources say.

The notion that a US-led multinational coalition would attack Afghanistan from all sides for harbouring Osama bin Laden, the wealthy Saudi dissident leader and prime suspect for the terrorist outrages in New York and Washington, has been rejected in Washington and London. The sources also say that the planned campaign is not being focused on just “bringing bin Laden to justice”.

The build-up of firepower by the Americans in the region, notably the two aircraft carrier battle groups that are to be joined by a third carrier, USS Theodore Roosevelt, is seen as a major display of available military capability. While it is important for these assets to be in the right place in case of a political decision to launch a strike, there are no plans for a “short-term fix”.

The dramatically different anti-terrorism campaign is being planned to meet what is now regarded as the most dangerous threat to global security, known as asymmetric warfare. “We’re expecting it to last from five to ten years,” one source said.

New ideas are needed to counter small groups armed with the minimum of weaponry, whether conventional or non-conventional. Such groups have the capability to attack a nation as powerful as the United States, which is equipped with the full range of modern weapons and professional Armed Forces.

Old doctrines for fighting wars, based on lining up tanks and artillery and layers of troops, are being thrown out and replaced by a more subtle and wide-ranging doctrine which seeks to defeat the enemy at its own game. “The aim is not to go for the enemy’s strengths, but its weaknesses,” one source said.

American and British planners are working on the basis that military strikes will take place only as part of a broader global counter-terrorist operation, embracing every other type of international action — diplomatic, economic and political.

Most of the focus of the ten-year campaign plan, the sources say, is on using military action as a potent back-up to all the other strands of Operation Noble Eagle.

However, President Bush, conscious of the demand for “revenge” from the American public, might sanction shorter-term military operation by special forces, or airstrikes, but only if there is sufficient intelligence to guarantee a sucessful outcome. “There’s no point in firing a lot of missiles at bin Laden if they miss their target, or launching Tomahawks at bin Laden training camps if they are empty,” one source said.

Complete Article:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001320010-2001325231,00.html










 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 481 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Thu, Sep 20, 2001 (08:46) * 12 lines 
 
From Screendaily:

US theatres plan Sept 11 charity day next Tuesday
(Mike Goodridge in Los Angeles)

Theatre circuits across the US are banding together to create a "Victims Benefit Day at the Movies" next Tuesday (Sept 25) on which 100% of ticket and concession sales will be donated to the September 11th Fund of the United Way and the American Red Cross.

50% of the proceeds will be donated to the Red Cross and 50% to the United Way.

Among participating circuits are AMC, Carmike Cinemas, Cinemark USA, Hoyts Cinemas Corp, National Amusements, Regal Cinemas and United Artists Theatre Co.

• Joe Roth’s Revolution Studios has announced that it will donate all proceeds from the planned re-release of America’s Sweethearts this weekend to the September 11th Fund; the company is also adding its summer comedy hit The Animal to the re-release at selected sites.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 482 of 783: Culcha (terry) * Thu, Sep 20, 2001 (09:04) * 10 lines 
 

An article in the Nation reports that Russian television has been saying
that Russian security services believe the next attack will be on a nuclear
power plant:

http://www.thenation.com/docPrint.mhtml?i=special&s=bivens_wtc_20010916

We better step up security at our nuclear facilities. Now.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 483 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 20, 2001 (09:05) * 3 lines 
 
In other news, BBC is reporting that the Afghanistan shura (meeting of
clerics) has decided to ask Osama bin Laden to voluntarily leave the
country. But who would take him?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 484 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 20, 2001 (09:08) * 4 lines 
 
It is now being reported that Mossad warned the Bush Administration in
August that about 200 people on their watch list of suspected
terrorists were slipping into the United States, and that a "big target"
was going to be hit.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 485 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 20, 2001 (09:31) * 28 lines 
 
The James Woods story gets a notch more credibility.

Unfriendly Skies for James Woods

By Scott Huver, Hollywood.com Staff


Hollywood.com Exclusive! Actor may have shared "trial run" flight with terrorists
The always-intense actor James Woods may have found himself near the center of the real-life drama that led to the terrorist attacks on New York's World Trade Center.

The 54-year-old actor was questioned by the FBI following his report that while on a commercial flight from Boston's Logan Airport to Los Angeles one month prior to the devastating attack, he may have shared the first class section with the same box cutter-wielding terrorists responsible for hijacking American Airlines Flight 11.

The four men are now believed to have been enacting a "trial run" of their suicide assault on NYC.

According to Woods in a story confirmed by his publicist, he was on a flight back to L.A. after visiting his mother's home in Boston. He was alone in the first class section, except for a quartet of Middle Eastern men who, in Woods' estimation, were behaving bizarrely. The actor noticed that they never ate or drank, never spoke to the flight crew and only addressed each other in hushed tones. For the majority of the cross-country flight the men sat and stared stone-faced straight ahead.

Perhaps playing all those movie bad guys and killers gave the Oscar-nominated actor some kind of subtle insight: After picking up on the group's odd demeanor and tense body language, Woods actually mentioned it to a flight attendant, who dismissed it, and reported it again to airline authorities on the ground, who didn't seem to want to pursue it.

It wasn't until about a month later, on the Wednesday following the attack, that Woods again called authorities--this time the FBI--to report his experience once more. This time, in less than 24 hours, Federal agents arrived on his doorstep looking to examine every detail of his story.

Although the agents didn't share any information on their investigation with the actor, out of the thousands of tips the FBI received, they certainly seemed to take Woods' tale extremely seriously. The actor kept his experience quiet until it was leaked to a New York Post columnist, who mistakenly reported that it occurred only one week prior to the deadly attack.

"I think it is prudent not to comment on this and let the FBI continue to do their job, which they seem to be doing superbly right now," Woods said in a statement to Hollywood.com.

Laura Bosley, a spokeswoman for the FBI in Los Angeles, could neither confirm nor deny this report, but she did tell Hollywood.com that many individuals nationwide are coming forward with information and that the FBI is taking all these reports into account.

Woods recently starred in Scary Movie 2 and appears in the upcoming Drew Barrymore film Riding in Cars With Boys. He recently signed to play former studio head Alan Hirschfield in the film version of David McClintock's book Indecent Exposure, which chronicles David Begelman's check-forging scandal while heading Columbia Pictures in the late 1970s.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 486 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Thu, Sep 20, 2001 (10:13) * 4 lines 
 
the Afghanistan shura (meeting of clerics) has decided to ask Osama bin Laden to voluntarily leave the country. But who would take him?
If OBL gave himselp up, it would aid all those cells he has all over by centruting the attention on him. This is so complicated because it is not just him.

In Israel everyone has gas masks, I think it would be prudent on our side to to the same.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 487 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Thu, Sep 20, 2001 (10:15) * 1 lines 
 
centruting should be concentrating.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 488 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 20, 2001 (11:07) * 4 lines 
 
The Taliban have issued an edict that asks OBL to leave Afghanistan:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/010920/80/c4q2r.html



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 489 of 783: Annie  (AnnieZ) * Thu, Sep 20, 2001 (11:20) * 1 lines 
 
I work for an airline company. It's the saddest day in my company today. 25% of people in my department are leaving (most of them have already left by now). I've survived at this time but don't feel happy at all! People, whom I worked with for years and some of them became very good friends, are let go. Tears in many people's eyes no matter they stay or go. I'm feeling so depressed. It feels like an airplane just hit the building when I work (which is the headquarter of the company). Just think that we had several new positions opening for hire a week before the attack. I may survive for this cut but who knows the next time I'd survive?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 490 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 20, 2001 (11:24) * 9 lines 
 
janes.com:


19 September 2001
Who did it? Foreign Report presents an alternative view

Israel’s military intelligence service, Aman, suspects that Iraq is the state that sponsored the suicide attacks on the New York Trade Center and the Pentagon in Washington. Directing the mission, Aman officers believe, were two of the world’s foremost terrorist masterminds: the Lebanese Imad Mughniyeh, head of the special overseas operations for Hizbullah, and the Egyptian Dr Ayman Al Zawahiri, senior member of Al-Qaeda and possible successor of the ailing Osama Bin Laden.

The two men have not been seen for some time. Mughniyeh is probably the world’s most wanted outlaw. Unconfirmed reports in Beirut say he has undergone plastic surgery and is unrecognisable. Zawahiri is thought to be based in Egypt. He could be Bin Laden’s chief representative outside Afghanistan.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 491 of 783: Eileen  (EileenG) * Thu, Sep 20, 2001 (11:46) * 7 lines 
 
Re: the James Woods story

Just because something is repeated does not, in itself, make a story credible. Let's look at who the 'reporters' are. Cindy Adams: a gossip columnist, relating heresay. I do not doubt James Woods saw what he saw and reported it as described, but how can it be concluded these *were* the same terrorists? Or even terrorists at all? Did he positively ID them? 'Reportedly paying cash'--how does James or Cindy know this? She also blames Logan Security when security at the Portland, Maine airport is also culpable.

Scott Huver, Hollywood.com (c'mon, H'wood.com? We're not exactly talking 60 Minutes here): Scott essentially re-writes Cindy's story except he states Woods took the flight one month before 9-11 whereas Cindy said it was one week. He then embellishes with some common knowledge quotes.

IMO one should not jump to conclusions based on this level of reporting and should use the term 'credible' with care.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 492 of 783: suzee   (suzee202000) * Thu, Sep 20, 2001 (12:24) * 10 lines 
 
Just because something is repeated does not, in itself, make a story credible...
IMO one should not jump to conclusions based on this level of reporting.(Eileen)


Good point, but I think it applies to every "level of reporting" right now.
(Especially right now.) There have been quite a few stories circulated that
turned out to be incorrect even in the "main stream" press. I do think it makes sense that the terrorists would have made "trial runs" to check out the exact conditions on the flights.





 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 493 of 783: Eileen  (EileenG) * Thu, Sep 20, 2001 (12:38) * 4 lines 
 
(Suzee) I think it applies to every "level of reporting" right now.
Good point right back at 'cha, but I'd like to think things are settling down in the true mainstream press. Last week it was mass hysteria.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 494 of 783: suzee   (suzee202000) * Thu, Sep 20, 2001 (12:46) * 10 lines 
 
Just because something is repeated does not, in itself, make a story credible...
IMO one should not jump to conclusions based on this level of reporting.(Eileen)


Good point, but I think it applies to every "level of reporting" right now.
(Especially right now.) There have been quite a few stories circulated that
turned out to be incorrect even in the "main stream" press. I do think it makes sense that the terrorists would have made "trial runs" to check out the exact conditions on the flights.





 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 495 of 783: Culcha (terry) * Thu, Sep 20, 2001 (13:23) * 7 lines 
 
I'm taking the Woods story with the grain of salt it deserves, but if true
has much broader consequences.

This is an article on the international system used to move money to the
terrorists and the moves to stop it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/20/business/20MONE.html


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 496 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 20, 2001 (14:58) * 19 lines 
 

Finally, a major, reputable news source has picked this James Woods thing up.

Reuters.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010919/en/people-woods_1.html

Pretty much the same information in this Reuters piece with the exception
of this elaboration:

Woods declined to publicly discuss his experience, first reported by New
York Post columnist Cindy Adams and confirmed by his spokeswoman, Susan
Madore. In a brief statement, the actor said, ``I think it prudent not to
comment on this and let the FBI continue do their job, which they seem to
be doing superbly right now.''

Woods, 54, who studied at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology before
pursuing an acting career, is best known for playing heavies and misfits.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 497 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 20, 2001 (15:10) * 1 lines 
 
It's now being reported the Woods flight was a month before not a week as reported in the gossip column.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 498 of 783: suzee   (suzee202000) * Thu, Sep 20, 2001 (19:29) * 25 lines 
 
At least two of the "hijackers" supposedly found alive and well.



Doubts emerge over identities of hijackers in US attacks
WASHINGTON, Sept 20 (AFP) -

US officials are investigating whether some or all of the 19 hijackers on the four hijacked aircraft used in last week's terror attacks used stolen identities, possibly complicating efforts to link them to Osama bin Laden.

The doubts started to emerge when at least four men with names matching those on an FBI list of the hijackers turned up alive in Saudi Arabia and Tunisia, according to newspaper reports.

An unnamed senior US official told Thursday's Washington Post that there was now uncertainty over the list of names. "There may be some question with regard to the identity of at least some of them," he said.
.........

FBI director Robert Mueller said last week as he released what he said were the names of the hijackers that his bureau had "a fairly high level of confidence" that they were their true identities.

But at least one Arabic newspaper, the Saudi-owned Asharq al-Awsat, said this week it had found two of the Saudis named on the list, Abdelaziz al-Omari and Said Hussein Gharamallah al-Ghamdi, alive and well.


Article:

http://asia.dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/technology/afp/article.html?s=asia/headlines/010920/technology/afp/Doubts_emerge_over_identities_of_hijackers_in_US_attacks.html





 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 499 of 783: Wolf  (wolf) * Thu, Sep 20, 2001 (20:39) * 3 lines 
 
i heard about the stolen identities too.

prayers and love to all....


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 500 of 783: Beth  (Bethanne) * Thu, Sep 20, 2001 (21:29) * 1 lines 
 
Plus the families of two of the hihackers have said, their relative was not one of the hijackers, including this Mohammad Atta dude. They are claiming identity fraud too. A bit hard to belive when you consider Atta has been on the FBI's list of suspected criminals, for a long time.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 501 of 783: suzee   (suzee202000) * Thu, Sep 20, 2001 (21:37) * 20 lines 
 
(Rob)MSG 436 sums up just about every country capable of providing aid bar New Zealand. Do we not exist?


- I copied that information from a couple of different sites. It is entirely
possible that I missed New Zealand :-( -- or it was not on the lists I
used -- but I looked around and found this:

NEW ZEALAND: Has offered the use of Special Air Services commandos and New Zealand intelligence resources in any action against those responsible for the terrorist attacks.
-----------------
Here's to New Zealand:

“God of nations at Thy feet
In the bonds of love we meet.
Hear our voices, we entreat,
God defend our Free Land.
Guard Pacific's triple star”

And why if it "can be found on two large islands and a host of smaller islands"
is it called "triple star"? (Gee, I hope the lyrics are correct!)



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 502 of 783: Minkee  (maryw) * Thu, Sep 20, 2001 (21:49) * 10 lines 
 
This is really spooky I just received by email :

a.. A flight number from one of the planes that hit one of the twin
towers
was Q33NY.
b.. In MS Word or Wordperfect, type in that flight number (in
capitals) -
Q33NY
c.. Enlarge the font size to 26 and then change the font to Wingdings or Wingdings1



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 503 of 783: Mary Warren  (maryw) * Thu, Sep 20, 2001 (21:49) * 1 lines 
 



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 504 of 783: Minkee  (maryw) * Thu, Sep 20, 2001 (21:50) * 10 lines 
 
This is really spooky I just received by email :

a.. A flight number from one of the planes that hit one of the twin
towers
was Q33NY.
b.. In MS Word or Wordperfect, type in that flight number (in
capitals) -
Q33NY
c.. Enlarge the font size to 26 and then change the font to Wingdings or Wingdings1



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 505 of 783: Minkee  (maryw) * Thu, Sep 20, 2001 (21:51) * 1 lines 
 
Sorry..for phantom postings


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 506 of 783: Rob Glennie  (AotearoaKiwi) * Fri, Sep 21, 2001 (00:48) * 18 lines 
 
Hi all

I thought I would post this as my own perspective on the Taliban, the case with the Muslim population world wide, the case of the Middle East and the possible effect on the world economy. My perspective comes from having talked to Mum and Dad who have been to Pakistan and Afghanistan, from learning and research I did on my own accord on the Middle East powder keg, from Political Science and from Geography where we examined the United States foreign policy (not as applied to a Middle Eastern nation).
In 1979 the country of Nicaragua was ripe for revolt, with a regime in power despised by the people and in command of a military that was beginning to lean toward the people. The regime was recognised by the United States among other countries and it allowed environmentally unfriendly practices to be maintained by foreign companies of mainly Western origin. A politician named Sandinista however began a revolution the following year that swept him into power with the support of the people of Nicaragua. It was a socialist government (NOT COMMUNIST)that formed and immediately began instituting sweeping reform basic social welfare, health, education, and economic programmes the latter of which were based on principles of environmental sustainability. The program involved the passing of the first ever environmental laws for the country which restricted the amount of forest that could be logged and set standards for mines.
Someone in the Ronald Reagan found out and pressed the President into allowing the CIA to wage government sponsored crime in the country by burning down the forests, and funding anti Sandinista factions to topple the government. The secretly funded war that CIA agents waged in the country crippled Nicaragua at the one time when it was making it's first substantial economic progress ever.
The same President decreased spending on just about everything to fund a huge programme of capital expenditure on the United States military which had operatives in Afghanistan fighting the Soviets, who were immediately withdrawn without any gratitude to Afghanistan (or Pakistan from where they were based) as soon as the Soviets withdrew.

Pakistan inherited many problems created by the sudden United States departure which to some extent the Pakistani government could not have satisfactorily sorted out itself. That upset many Muslims and since the United States is a powerful ally of Israel whose Jews are age old foes of the Muslims, the United States became a target of anger. None of this ever justified terrorism on ANY scale let alone the scale of last weeks attacks, but it may have been part of a trigger for the strikes on New York and Washington D.C. Osama bin Laden has begun a holy war and I suspect that the Middle East with it's sharp divisions between Arabs and Israelis, Muslims and Jews has the capacity to become a giant conflagration of war if certain issues are not sorted out. The entire Western World is at fault to some extent (United States, Britain, Australia, France, Germany, Canada, New Zealand and like countries)on this issue. We take the oil of those countries to drive our economies while putting minimal investment back in by
mploying people at dirt cheap rates in some cases and this is not an exaggeration NZ$1 (US$.44c) a day. We treat their environments with contempt and make no effort to clean up the mess, and we contribute to the cycle of poverty that ensures these countries STAY poor. New Zealand is at fault because we get shirts and clothes really cheaply from Indonesia (a Muslim nation with 200 million people), and probably places like Pakistan and India.
We expect them to be democratic and freedom when we can at TIMES hardly call the governments of our nations freedom loving either. I think there is a low but very REAL chance that a showdown sometime in the next few decades between the West and Islam is looming, and I think it may engulf at least the entire Middle East when it does come.

So how did this mess come about?? In part Western consumerism is to blame for the economic ills and lack of investment in the countries where we have set up Multi-national corporations, and in part to misguided policies passed by the governments of those nations who have large Muslim populations.
What can we do?? All countries have a role to play in this though the largest role will be that of the United States, because it takes the most out of the Islamic nations. United States Foreign policy on things like trade is going to have to change or it risks permanently damaging relations with the entire Islamic world. Changes need not be sweeping but they need to be on things like free trade (without tariffs), and a concept of "fair trade" that involves trade deals that disadvantage neither side are being promoted by some. How the Department of State sees environmental protocols will have to change as it is hurting traditional European friends/allies as much as it hurts poorer nations.

People, I know that this sounds like a lot but in reality, it is not all that much in comparison with the gains to be had from a peaceful world. I know that my views are greatly different from some and that so soon after the terrorist attacks it may hurt to hear this, but you will hear sooner or later anyway when the world looks at WHY the social conditions favoured the faceless cowards who stormed the aircraft that were used in the terrorist strikes. It is time for people to realise that Western nations cannot always get away with what they want, and that sooner or later someone with a monumental hatred for what we stand for is going to strike. We can strike back and strike hard, but it is as much about prevention as it is about anything else.
Finally, I have seen in documentaries and read in techno-thrillers about terrorists and now I have seen terrorism in action, and I can tell you that I want it dead as much as anyone else. The Taliban has announced it is preparing for a holy war just as you announced a war of some sort. I support the war in that it will show a united front which is clearly not what the terrorists had envisioned but there are limits to it all. At the end of the day we Westerners are going to have to make some sacrifices to our material wealth, because plainly to stop the social conditions that support this sort of evil, nothing less will do.

Rob


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 507 of 783: suzee   (suzee202000) * Fri, Sep 21, 2001 (04:25) * 24 lines 
 

Secret memo reveals US plan to overthrow Taliban regime

Friday September 21, 2001
The Guardian

The US government is pressing its European allies to agree to a military campaign to topple the Taliban regime in Afghanistan and replace it with an interim administration under United Nations auspices.

Diplomatic cables from the Washington embassy of a key Nato ally, seen by the Guardian, report that the US is keen to hear allied views on "post-Taliban Afghanistan after the liberation of the country".

The embassy cable reveals that the US administration is bent on force to evict the Taliban from power because of the shelter it has offered Osama bin Laden, named by the White House as prime suspect for the New York and Washington atrocities on September 11.

The Guardian has also learned that two large US Hercules transport aircraft landed in Tashkent, capital of the former Soviet republic of Uzbekistan, on Tuesday loaded with surveillance equipment to be installed along the northern Afghan border.

The secret landing represented a radical departure since it appeared to herald the deployment of squadrons of US fighters at Uzbekistan's sprawling airfield at Termez, directly on the border. Such a build-up would incur the wrath of Russia which views the central Asian republics as its backyard.
..........................

The US strategy to depose the Taliban regime is based on more than military thinking. A further plank appears to entail supporting the campaign of the exiled 86-year-old monarch of Afghanistan, King Zahir Shah, to return to power by encouraging the guerrilla army of the Northern Alliance opposition to fall in behind him.


Complete article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,555530,00.html



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 508 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Fri, Sep 21, 2001 (07:35) * 44 lines 
 
At the end of the day we Westerners are going to have to make some sacrifices to our material wealth, because plainly to stop the social conditions that support this sort of evil, nothing less will do.
Good point, Rob.

the US is keen to hear allied views on "post-Taliban Afghanistan after the liberation of the country".
Some people may find this statement very arrogant.

From syndicated columnist JONATHAN POWER

Is it possible for America to say 'Sorry'?

September 20, 2001

LONDON - How should the United States fight Osama bin Laden? It could start by saying sorry. Despite two centuries of rapid immigration pulling in people from all over the world, America remains a predominantly Christian nation. It is not a Jewish one and certainly not an Islamic one. It draws its inspiration from another book, mightier, it believes, than the Old Testament or the Koran, although it shares common roots with both these religions and worships the same God.

If Christianity is not about saying sorry and turning the other cheek what, at the end of the day, is so special about it? We have a lot to be sorry for.

After all it was Christian societies that practised slavery. It was a Christian society that tolerated the long persecution and then the obliteration of the Jews. (Islamic societies, even in their worst times, have never set about the extermination of the Jewish people.) And in a more recent era it is Christian societies which stirred up war in Africa in their quest for Cold War allies, destroyed Afghanistan, the scorched refuge of bin Laden, in a misplaced and unnecessary attempt to aid the resistance to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and allowed the legitimate desire of the Jewish people to own their own state to degenerate into the contemporary world's worst example of military occupation and imperialistic land acquisition.

Perhaps it seems extraordinary that a political writer should have nothing better to say than "say sorry". In a week when innocent bodies in New York and Washington are being buried, when children cry all night for their lost parents, when lonely widows and widowers ask themselves how they will ever take another step forward through life, is this the time for contrition?

It is hard to make the argument, that I know. But where does hatred take us, where does revenge, where does it end if, as President George Bush says, "there are no rules"? Do we want to make the situation worse or do we want to take a momentous leap of imagination and reach out to make it better?

The military solution, however sympathetically one looks at it, appears at the very least counterproductive. As a recent publication by the hard headed International Institute for Strategic Studies argued it, going after the Taleban regime in Afghanistan will likely destabilise its friendly neighbour Pakistan and throw a nuclear-armed country into the hands of the militants.

Beyond that, what would be the point of inflaming Islamic societies everywhere if it led to the fall of the fundamentalist (but friendly) government of Saudi Arabia? If Saudi Arabia were ruled in a fashion true to its Wahhabi ultra- fundamentalist creed not only would there be no U.S. troops on Saudi soil, it would be an end to the (uneasy) coalition against Saddam Hussein, there would be a cataclysmic shortfall in western oil supplies, and the turning of Saudi missiles from pointing towards Iraq in the direction of Israel instead.

It would also probably push Saudi Arabia to develop nuclear weapons to put on the nose of its nuclear-capable rockets it bought from China, and this to threaten Israel with. Is America going to occupy Pakistan and Saudi Arabia to forestall that scenario? Then the house would really fall in.

The reason America has reached this fork in the road is because, as with so many other issues, America has put off biting the bullet on hard problems. Politicians and the media have connived to keep the populace ignorant of what is going on in the world. Only in extreme times of emergency - such as the current one and the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait- is there an intense effort made to educate public opinion, and then that is done at a fever pitch with truth and objectivity being given short shrift.

Yet all over the world there are silent emergencies that have continued to be combated half heartedly, whilst they have developed a head of power that in the end steamrollers all modest solutions. This is as true of global warming as it is of the Israeli settlement policy on Palestinian land. This is as true of the spread of AIDS and other highly infectious diseases as it is of the West's over-consumption of energy. This is as true of the proliferation of nuclear weapons, for want of a disarmament lead from the ex-Cold War nuclear powers, as it is of the Western tolerance of child labour in factories making their consumer goods.

This is as true of children dying in Africa and other Third World countries for want of pure drinking water and the lack of education of young girls as it is of the ubiquitous use of torture because of the ever slow response of Western governments to pre-empt deteriorating human rights situations, indeed often propping up repressive regimes with financial credits and arms sales. (And, by the way, where would America try a captured bin Laden if not before the International Criminal Court to which it is bitterly opposed?)

To lay all these problems at America's feet is to ignore Europe's own culpability. The old continent, if perhaps on occasion wiser and better informed about the rest of the world, has only intermittently done much better. Now it must wake up too.

To say sorry is but the beginning. Then the work must start.


To read more articles from all over the world go here:
http://www.transnational.org/sitemap.html





 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 509 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Fri, Sep 21, 2001 (08:03) * 1 lines 
 
Did anyone see a teleprompter last night for Pres. Bush? He couldn't have memorized and delivered the speech so well. It was the best he's ever done live.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 510 of 783: MarkG  (MarkG) * Fri, Sep 21, 2001 (08:35) * 6 lines 
 
MaryW: A flight number from one of the planes that hit one of the twin
towers was Q33NY.


Don't let Wingdings experts mess with your head, Mary. The flights that hit the towers were numbered 11 and 77, the other two hijacked flights 175 and 93.

Also, the Nostradamus lines being broadcast around the Web ("twin brothers shall be rent in fire, yadda, yadda") are made up.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 511 of 783: Laura   (LauraMM) * Fri, Sep 21, 2001 (08:42) * 5 lines 
 
Sorry? I haven't read the above article and don't feel the inclination to. We have Jesse Jackson trying to get monies to the offspring of slaves? I'm sorry, but that is the stupidest idea I've ever heard. If that's the case then, perhaps we should start doling money out to every Japanese American who were sent into camps during WW2 or the Koreans during the Korean War? Hell, we should pay Britain for "allowing" us to win the war in 1776. Why should WE say sorry? We are a nation built on different ethnicities and backgrounds. Slavery made this country, it built our civil rights, and our Bill of Rights, out of bad, some good may come.

What we have is a nation (Afghanistan) who is run by fundamentalist nutjobs. The Taliban is EVIL. They are trying to infiltrate as many countries as they can with their idealogy mumbo jumbo. They are not Muslims? They are whacked out religious freaks who say they speak the word or Allah. And Allah comandeered them to take our airplanes, use them as missiles, against CIVILIANS, who were just working, like the rest of the world. Not plotting to overtake a government, or throw their religious beliefs on everyone else. I know I'm just ranting, but we don't owe anyone an apology. Our governmental policies are in use because they work. Iraq says it's our fault. Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell (GO AWAY BOTH OF YOU) blame our moral values. They said it was our fault. No one, absolutely NO ONE, deserves to die the way helpless civilians dies on September 11, 2001.

end of rant.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 512 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 21, 2001 (08:56) * 5 lines 
 

A summary of OBL's finances in The Times

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001320010-2001325324,00.html



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 513 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 21, 2001 (09:03) * 54 lines 
 
David Kline:

If we end up bombing the Afghan capital (or other populated targets),
it'll be because Washington lacked the patience and willingness to ally
with freedom-loving Afghans in the country and gather the human
intelligence needed to locate Bin Laden and his Taliban benefactors.

In other words, it'll be a de facto admission of defeat.

If you really want Bin Laden, you have to:

* Use local people to locate him.

* Move swiftly without alerting him or his Taliban supporters
(which probably means employing a joint US-Afghan (anti-Taliban) team.

If we just start flying around in Bin Laden's general area, using
electronic intelligence gathered from his communications to hone in on
him, he'll be gone before his tea gets cold.

And I mean *gone.* In that part of the country -- a lot like Utah only
hotter and more difficult to traverse -- there are thousands of little
cave hideouts and hundreds of Taliban-dominated villages where he could
hide out and slink away. The borders near Quetta, Pakistan are completely
porous -- even if the Pak's tried with all their might to seal them, it
couldn't be done. There are also nomadic tribespeople moving in caravans
constantly across both Iran's and Pakistan's borders with Afghanistan
where a guy in a turban with a half-dozen bodyguards could easily blend in.

So "chasing" Bin Laden on the run won't work. You've got to find him and
move in quickly, **before** he runs, and for that you need anti-Taliban
Afghan intelligence. There's simply no other way to attack him effectively.

Of course, if Washington just wants to blow off steam and waste a few
hundred or thousand innocent Afghans, then none of the above applies.

It'll look good on TV, maybe, but it won't get Bin Laden or the Taliban.

A finger of David Kline reveals:

I'm a journalist and author, former war correspondent (until, genius that
I am, I finally figured out I should find something safer to do) and
sometime business strategy consultant. I used to be a HotWired columnist
and Upside columnist till they gave me the boot for ideological impurity.
But I'm still a commentator on NPR's "Marketplace" business program and
I'm still writing books. So I guess I'm not a complete screw-up.

My first book was published by Dutton in 1995 -- "Road Warriors: Dreams
and Nightmares Along the Information Highway." My latest will be published
by Harvard Business School Press in the Fall of 1999 -- "Rembrandts in the
Closet: Wielding Intellectual Property for Competitive Advantage."

I would add that he's been on the scene in Afghanistan as a war
correspondent.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 514 of 783: Eileen  (EileenG) * Fri, Sep 21, 2001 (09:07) * 6 lines 
 
(Moon) It was the best he's ever done live.
Practice makes perfect and so does good coaching. I was grateful he didn't appear to be sounding out the words as he has in earlier speeches.

(Laura) perhaps we should start doling money out to every Japanese American who were sent into camps during WW2
Psst, Laura, it was done. You've never heard of reparation? =8-O



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 515 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 21, 2001 (09:32) * 25 lines 
 
David Kline (dkline) Thu 13 Sep 01 08:30

I'd like to try to clear up some mis-information about how the US
supposedly "supplied", "trained" or "created" Bin Laden. I reported from
Afghanistan from 1979-1987, and I can tell you absolutely that such was
not the case. The US supplied arms & money to a variety of factions of the
mujahadeen, but did so only through the Pakistani intelligence serevices
(SIS), which funneled most arms to Gulbadin Hekmatyar, an ideological
precursor to the Taliban and types like Bin Laden. Pakistan had its own
reasons for doing so -- these fanatics did very little fighting against
the Russians (unlike genuine leaders like Ahmed Shah Massoud), preferring
to fight other resistance factions -- and I and others warned US officials
of the consequences of allowing arms to be directed towards the
fundamentalists. But US officials insisted their "hands were tied" in this
matter, and whether true or not, there it is.

How did the Taliban win? Consider that Afghan society, almost entirely
tribal rather than "national" toi begin with, was utterly destroyed by the
Soviets durinbg the war. 1-tenth the population killed; 1/3 of the
survivords forced to flee as refuygees. The systematic destruction of
Afghan intelligentsia by Soviet-directed police forces resulted in a
statistical decline in the literacy rate.

Into this vacumn the Taliban, financed and armerd by Saudi extremists,
entered.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 516 of 783: User & (admin) * Fri, Sep 21, 2001 (09:37) * 4 lines 
 
A lot more of David Klines thoughts on this:

http://www.spring.net/dkline.html



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 517 of 783: Evelyn  (lafn) * Fri, Sep 21, 2001 (09:44) * 4 lines 
 
Hey, that Jonathan Power is some dude.
Am I reading: Get a Marshall Plan organized for Afghanistan?
Wonder how many votes that would get.
*shaking head*


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 518 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 21, 2001 (13:23) * 26 lines 
 
[from the Hollywood Reporter]
Studios tighten security following FBI terror alert
Sep. 21, 2001

Terrorists leveled threats Thursday against Hollywood's major film studios,
prompting each to seriously reconsider existing security measures that
suddenly seemed far too mild for the current political climate. Some studios
partially evacuated their facilities late in the afternoon. Internal memos,
usually in the form of an e-mail issued by high-ranking studio executives,
buzzed throughout Hollywood on Thursday, warning of threats of mass
destruction, presumably from Islamic terrorists. Insiders said studio heads
first learned of the threat from MPAA president Jack Valenti, who was
briefed by U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft, who specifically mentioned a
threat of a suicide bomber. An FBI statement released late Thursday, though,
was more vague about the exact nature of the threat. The threat's purpose,
though, was specifically laid out by the FBI: If the U.S. attacks
Afghanistan, a studio will be bombed. "Today the FBI provided a threat
advisory to the major movie studios in Los Angeles," FBI spokesman Matt
McLaughlin said. "The uncorroborated threat states that a film studio in
California could be the target of a terrorist bombing attack in retaliation
for any possible bombing attacks by the United States against Afghanistan.
In an abundance of caution, the FBI has provided this threat advisory. The
FBI is working closely with the studios regarding this matter." Insiders
said that those making the threat will target a major film studio because
American values and culture -- anathema to fundamentalist Islamic terrorists
-- are distributed throughout the world via Hollywood movies.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 519 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 21, 2001 (13:25) * 10 lines 
 

Here is a report that Osama has been rushed toward the Chinese border
by the Taliban:

http://www.frontierpost.com.pk/main.asp?id=2&date1=9/21/2001

This one indicates that he left even before the shura met.

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/sep2001-daily/21-09-2001/main/main2.htm



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 520 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 21, 2001 (14:58) * 58 lines 
 
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/

Last summer, while the American media kept the people distracted with
"All Condit All The Time", the US Government was informing other
governments that we would be at war in Afghanistan, no later than
October! How lucky for our government that just when they are planning
to invade another country, for the express purpose of removing that
government, a convenient "terrorist" attack occurs to anger Americans
into support for an invasion.

Sound impossible? Not when you consider that accused terrorist
mastermind Osama bin Laden is actually an employee of the CIA, who
trained and financed him. And guess who paid for the training of the
Hijackers? YOU DID, according to NEWSWEEK and MSNBC.

From

Alleged Hijackers May Have Trained at U.S. Bases
The Pentagon has turned over military records on five men to the FBI
By George Wehrfritz, Catharine Skipp and John Barry
NEWSWEEK

Sept. 15 U.S. military sources have given the FBI information that
suggests five of the alleged hijackers of the planes that were used in
Tuesdays terror attacks received training at secure U.S. military
installations in the 1990s.

Leonard Pitts column:

http://www.contracostatimes.com/opinion/columnists/pitts/stories/xxpitts_20010921.htm

"LET'S GET something straight. The events of Sept. 11 did not happen
because we did something wrong. Or because we somehow "deserved" them.

In recent days, I've heard that argument or variations thereof from
several friends and dozens of e-mail correspondents. This must be what
"they" feel like when we bomb "them," says one. Perhaps they acted out
of deep hurt, says another. Maybe this is necessary payback for
American arrogance, says yet another. And then, of course, there's the
ever-reliable Jerry Falwell, who said on "The 700 Club" last week that
the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon represent God's
verdict on gay rights, feminism, abortion and the ACLU.

In a word, no. To all of the above, to all the tortured reflection and
moral distress: no. Hell no."....

"Last week happened, pure and simple, because certain religious
extremists hate us. They hate us because our foreign policy has been
supportive of Israel. They hate us because we helped repel Saddam
Hussein from Kuwait in 1991. But in the larger sense, they hate us
because their children want blue jeans, Britney Spears videos and the
chance to be like Mike. They hate us because we consume bacon and beer.
They hate us because American women wear bikinis and speak their
minds. They hate us because we are the biggest, the wealthiest, the
most influential, the most powerful. They hate us because we are not
them and, moreover, because they are not us. They hate us because they
think the deity requires it. They hate us because."



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 521 of 783: suzee   (suzee202000) * Fri, Sep 21, 2001 (15:46) * 33 lines 
 
It may be true that James Woods saw the hijackers:


09/21/2001 - Updated 03:07 PM ET

Investigators: Hijackers repeatedly scouted flights
By Kevin Johnson, Toni Locy and Richard Willing, USA TODAY

The terrorists who staged last week's murderous attacks apparently practiced for months by repeatedly riding the flights they later hijacked, learning jet crews' patterns, counting passenger loads and testing airline security, the FBI now believes. The 19 hijackers, probably aided by accomplices who are still alive, began scouting for flights to hijack and making dry runs as early as April, law enforcement sources say. Some of the hijackers are believed to have entered the USA then.

Authorities confirmed the finding by checking flight manifests and airport security camera tapes. They also interviewed airline employees.

Investigators had suspected that the four hijacked flights — two from Boston and one each from Newark, N.J., and Dulles International Airport in suburban Washington — had been carefully chosen, in part because each was full of fuel for a cross-country trip and had a relatively light passenger load.

The lack of passengers would have made it easier for the four or five Muslim extremists on each jet to keep those aboard under control and overwhelm the cockpit crews.

Authorities say they also now believe that the killers scouted other flights as hijacking candidates but eliminated them from consideration.

The findings add texture to the portrait that is emerging of the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon. The hijackings, sources say, were meticulously planned and required large sums of money, dozens of helpers and coordination among teams.

Investigators have not ruled out the possibility that a central figure who set the attacks in motion still could be at large.

© Copyright 2001 USA TODAY, a division of Gannett Co. Inc.


http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/09/21/hijackers-usat.htm









 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 522 of 783: suzee   (suzee202000) * Fri, Sep 21, 2001 (16:06) * 53 lines 
 
From the NY Times, more on the hijackers' identities:

September 21, 2001
Confusion Over Names Clouds Identities of Attackers on Jets
By NEIL MacFARQUHAR

CAIRO, Sept. 20 — Many of the 19 hijacking suspects in the terror attacks last week remain shrouded in confusion, with almost nothing known about some and up to five apparent cases of mistaken identity.

The F.B.I. list of hijacking suspects does include the names of at least six missing Saudi Arabian men who left their country, ostensibly to join the Islamic fighters battling the Russians in Chechnya, plus four others whose parents have lost contact with them.

But the lack of the details about the suspects, plus the assertions of mistaken identity, have left their parents refusing to mourn and Saudi Arabian officials dismissive of the entire list.

"The haste in publishing the names of suspects in the attacks has made the media fall into the error of involving innocent people, especially Saudis," Prince Mit'eb bin Abdullah, the deputy commander of the Saudi National Guard, complained to reporters in Riyadh.

The use of wrong names and pictures may indicate that the hijackers filched the identities of fellow Saudis.

In the United States, Robert Mueller, the director of the F.B.I., acknowledged Thursday that there were questions about the identities of several of the hijackers on the list.

"We have several hijackers whose identities were those of the names on the manifest, we have several others who are still in question," Mr. Mueller said while touring the crash site in Pennsylvania of one hijacked plane.

An official at the Saudi Embassy in Washington said there were five mistaken identities on the list, adding that all the men were alive and living abroad.

Saudi officials say part of the problem stems from the proliferation of similar names in Saudi Arabia, as well as the numerous varieties of spelling them in English.

One of the most common surnames on the F.B.I. list is Alshehri. But in English various members of the clan might spell it Alshahri or Alshehiri or Al-Shehri, entangling search efforts.

Far more difficult is the fact that the country's huge tribes repeat the same names over and over again.

Saudis use at least three names: their given name, their father's name, and their tribal name. Between the father's name and the tribal name, many also insert the name of a fourth, favored ancestor. But even brothers do not always choose the same name.

To narrow the search to specific individuals, Saudi officials said they needed at least one and preferably two middle names. What they are given to work with now is a lot of Joe Smiths.

For example, there might be thousands and thousands of people with the name Waleed Alshehri, one of the men whose name appears on the list of suspects who rammed the first plane into the World Trade Center.

For a while, suspicion focused on the son of a Saudi diplomat with that name who had studied at Embry- Riddle Aeronautical University in Florida, but his father said he was alive and working as a pilot for Saudi Arabian Airlines. The confusion apparently stems from the fact that the F.B.I. is matching the names on the passenger manifests to students who have trained in flying.

In the southern Saudi town of Khamis Mushait, however, there is an established businessman named Mohammed Al-Shehri who is missing 2 of his 11 sons. One of them is Waleed Mohammed Al-Shehri.

Mr. Waleed, 21, was studying to be a teacher, while his brother Wail, 26, already had a degree in physical education and was teaching, their father told the Saudi newspaper Al- Watan. The older brother was suffering from psychological problems and kept seeking the help of clerics to perform a kind of religious exorcism to cure him, the father said.

Both men disappeared in December while on a trip to seek yet more help and have not been heard from since. They had grown increasingly religious before their disappearance and spoke often about joining the fight in Chechnya, the paper quoted family friends as saying. Their pictures match those released by the F.B.I.

To try to eliminate confusion, Saudi officials said they had repeatedly asked for more information on the suspects, especially longer names, but they had yet to receive it. Plus, in a few cases it appears the hijackers resorted to outright deception.

A passenger using the name Abdel Aziz Al-Omari and the birth date of December 24, 1972, is listed on the manifest of the flight that hit the towers first. But a man with the same name and birth date turned up alive in Riyadh, where he told the Al Sharq Al Awsat daily that he had studied electrical engineering at University of Denver. His passport was stolen there in 1995.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/21/international/middleeast/21IDEN.html?pagewanted=print








 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 523 of 783: Donna DL  (fitzwd) * Fri, Sep 21, 2001 (17:02) * 2 lines 
 
(Suzee) It may be true that James Woods saw the hijackers:
James Woods appears to be a straight shooter. If the story were materially false, I believe he would have disowned it by now. For those who are unaware of his background, he is quite intelligent and attended MIT. He left a few credits shy of graduation. He has articulately debated against Bill Bennett, the former drug czar, on Face the Nation.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 524 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 21, 2001 (17:40) * 23 lines 
 
Here are some interesting stats. Get out your little pad and pencil or rev' up your Excel or MS Works spreadsheet and play with these numbers. What do you se?

In 1940, the US population was 132 MM, the GNP was 100 BB in constant
dollars. In 1940 the US military was 500K men, maybe 300 ships, a few
thousand planes. In 1945, the US military was 13.5 million men &
women, we had 6000 vessels and 200K aircraft. We had spent nearly $400
BB, nearly twice the 1945 GDP.

In 2001, the US military has somewhat less than 200K men & women, 300
ships, a few thousand planes. We have a population of 280 MM and a GDP
of $10 trillion. Congress just appropriated $40BB for this war, half
of which is earkmarked for NYC. Vietnam cost $140 BB


year pop gnp military ships planes
year millionsbillionsmillion thousands
1940 132 100 0.5 300 3
1945 ? 400 13.5 6000 200
2001 280 10000 0.2 300

Sorry for the gaps. It looks we need more ships, men and planes. Our gnp
is now 10 trillion.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 525 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 21, 2001 (17:43) * 18 lines 
 
I was there when the first
Taliban units were seen in Afghanistan circa 1986. They were all composed
of Saudi and other foreign volunteers, and few took them very seriously
since they did little actual fighting against the Russians. But they
quickly allied with Gulbuddin Hekmatyar's Hezbi Islami group -- i.e., the
fundamentalist wing of the Afghan resistance -- which was receiving the
bulk of US arms and aid via Pakistani intelligence (SIS).

Then, amidst the confusion and infighting within the resistance following
the Soviet withdrawal, the Pak's chose to channel almost all their
material support to the Taliban, who used it to gain power over a divided
resistance movement and a peoiple utterly exhausted by war.

I'd wager that if a free & fair referendum were conducted in Afghanistan
today, the Taliban would receive fewer than 5% of the votes. Their army is
largely conscript, their most fervent supporters are unsophisticated
teenagers insulated in Taliban religious schools. Nothing they say or do
has any relationship to historic Afghan customs & attitudes.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 526 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 21, 2001 (17:45) * 25 lines 
 
Kathy Rockel was amazed when her United Airlines flight last weekend
began with an extraordinary message from the pilot: He informed
passengers how to rise up and fend off hijackers.

``If anybody stands up and is trying to take over the plane, stand up
together, take whatever you have and throw it at their heads,'' she
quoted the pilot as saying. ``You have to aim for their faces so they
have to defend themselves.''

The pilot also said passengers could fight hijackers by throwing
blankets over their heads, wrestling them to the ground and holding
them until he landed, Rockel said. And referring to the ``we the
people'' preamble to the Constitution, she recalled, he said, ``We will
not be defeated.''

``Everybody on the plane was applauding,'' said Rockel, a medical
transcriptionist traveling from Denver to Washington, D.C., Sept. 15 on
United's Flight 564. ``People had tears coming down their faces. It
was as if we had a choice here, that if something were to happen we're
not completely powerless.''

Continued @:

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010921/us/attacks_taking_charge_1.html



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 527 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 21, 2001 (18:22) * 12 lines 
 
A few new topics have been created in the news conference to deal with some more specific aspects of the World Trade Center attack and the ensuing global conflict:

43 526 Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center

44 0 Media coverage of WTC attack and the aftermath
45 0 What can we do? What should we do?
46 0 suspension of civil liberties as a response to terrorism
47 0 coping with terrorism and a world gone to war
48 0 economic consequences of global war and terrorism
49 0 Finding Osama Bin Laden
50 0 What is the impact of the wtc crisis where you live?



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 528 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 21, 2001 (21:41) * 24 lines 
 

"A lot of thinking needs to be done, and perhaps is being done in Washington
and elsewhere, about the ineptitude of American intelligence and counter-
intelligence, about options available to American foreign policy,
particularly in the Middle East, and about what constitutes a smart program
of military defense."
- Susan Sontag

"As for America's friends, they have rallied around us with alacrity. On
Wednesday, the NATO allies, for the first time ever, invoked the mutual-
defense clause of the alliance's founding treaty, formally declaring that
"an armed attack" against oneQand what happened on September 11th, whether
you call it terrorism or war, was certainly an armed attackQconstitutes an
attack against all. This gesture of solidarity puts to shame the contempt
the Bush Administration has consistently shown for international treaties
and instruments, including those in areas relevant to the fight against
terrorism, such as small-arms control, criminal justice, and nuclear
proliferation. By now, it ought to be clear to even the most committed
ideologues of the Bush Administration that the unilateralist approach it was
pursuing as of last Tuesday is in urgent need of revaluation. The world will
be policed collectively or it will not be policed at all."
- Hendrik Hertzberg

Both of these from the recent New Yorker.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 529 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 21, 2001 (22:25) * 39 lines 
 
A couple of notable quotes from other pieces:

In the decade since the end of the Cold War, the human race has
become, with increasing rapidity, a single organism. Every kind
of barrier to the free and rapid movement of goods, information
and people has been lowered. The organism relies increasingly on
a kind of trust -- the unsentimental expectation that people,
individually and collectively, will behave more or less in their
rational self-interest.

-- Hendrik Hertzberg


How do you take "massive military action" against the infrastructure
of a stateless, compartmentalized "army" of fifty, or ten times fifty,
whose weapons are rental cars, credit cards, and airline tickets?
The scale of the damage notwithstanding, a more useful metaphor
than war is crime. The terrorists of September 11th are outlaws within
a global polity. They may enjoy the corrupt protection of a state
(and corruption, like crime, can be ideological or spiritual as well
as pecuniary in motive). But they do not constitute or control a
state and do not even appear to aspir to control one. Their status
and numbers are such that the task of dealing with them should be
viewed as a police matter, of the most urgent kind. As with all
criminal fugitives, the essential job is to find out who and where
they are.

-- Hendrik Hertzberg


But fly again we must; risk is a price of freedom, and walking around
Brooklyn Heights that afternoon, as ash drifted in the air and cars
were few and open-air lunches continued as usual on Montague Street,
renewed the impression that, with all its failings, this is a country
worth fighting for. Freedom, reflected in the street's diversity and
daily ease, felt palpable. It is mankind's elixir, even if a few
turn it to poison.

-- John Updike


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 530 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 21, 2001 (22:34) * 5 lines 
 
James Woods was shown tonight answering telephones on the "America: A
Tribute to Heroes Telethon". A lot of these rock stars and musicians
looked heartbroken as they played and spoke. Paul Simon just sang bridge
over Troubled Water and the parade of stars rolls on. Star studded is an
understatement.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 531 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sat, Sep 22, 2001 (00:29) * 19 lines 
 
David Kline again:


The Taliban cannot be negotiated with.

The council of clerics is more afraid of the Taliban than they are of the
U.S. -- the Taliban, after all, are within actual rifle range and
constitute a real and present threat, whereas the U.S. is (in their eyes)
only a distant and vague *potential* threat.

Hence the Council of Clerics decision. These councils, btw, historically
have tended to defer to whomever had the biggest and nearest sword.
Council of Clerics' decisions tend to drift with the winds of power, and
have generally been considered by Afghans to be as binding and as relevant
as, say, a Berkeley resolution declaring the city a "nuclear free zone."

Anyone seriously wishing to capture Bin Laden or otherwise deal with the
Afghan aspect of this problem effectively should not pay much attention to
either Taliban or Council of Clerics edicts.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 532 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Sat, Sep 22, 2001 (01:16) * 1 lines 
 
Without reading through a lot of posts to see if anyone answeed Laura, rhetorical question, we did pay reparations to the Japanese Americans we interred in WW2...$25,000 each.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 533 of 783: Rob Glennie  (AotearoaKiwi) * Sat, Sep 22, 2001 (05:31) * 16 lines 
 
Hi all

Jonathan Power, MSG 508: To lay all these problems at America's feet is to ignore Europe's culpability. The older Continent, if only on occasion wiser and better informed about the rest of the world, has only intermittently done much better. Now it must wake up too.

Rob: I always wondered if Britain had anything to gain from it's loyalty to the United States, aside from being assured of assistance when it got into it's own troubles. I mean, what is there to gain from always supporting the United States sanctions on Iraq, the unconditional following of the United States when it attacks the Myanmar military regime politics and so on? Does Britain have a rule of basing it's foreign policy on the United States foreign policy?

The few exceptions I have noted were the Kyoto Climate Protocol, for the sake of the Protocol, Britain did not have a choice since Bush was determined not to participate and it's relationship with European nations was at stake. This is however one time when I think European were dead on target, and that Japan was wise to support the protocol. Perhaps the best thing the European nations can do is deliver warnings to their embassies in the United States, on things where a potential split is likely, and back it up with a rebuke or rebuttal (call it what you may)of the United States stand if it clashes. The foreign policy of European nations need not be blindly tied as is possibly the case in Britain, with the United States on everything. Surely in one of the most civilised areas of the world, there are people who can give their nations original foreign policy.

However, the best thing that can happen is Bush dropping his very arrogant "take it or leave it" attitude which is causing splits among countries that are usually closely tied. Russia and the United States share more in common than they probably think, but Russia has a valid point on the 1972 ABM Treaty, as does Beijing on the missile shield as a whole. I would normally not agree with them on this sort of thing, so this is quite significant coming from me. The worst thing that can happen on this issue is if North Korea decides to restart it's missile program. If this happens the United States has only itself to blame, because Clinton managed to break the ice.

Finally, however, Europe can bring itself and the United States to their senses by taking a hard line on things like the Missile shield (which I think is going to restart the arms race and probably bring on a limited form of Cold War). I have absolutely no time for the $30 billion white elephant it may become.

So, Europe is as much at fault as it's American neighbour.

Rob



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 534 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sat, Sep 22, 2001 (08:06) * 6 lines 
 
The today's climate of terrorism, missile shields seem like overkill, don't they Rob? It wouldn't have helped us 9/11. This is likely to thaw out the US now that we need an international coalition, that's the only way we can combat worldwide terrorism.

For a map of how countries are taking sides in this coming global conflict, see
52 1 How do the world's countries line up in the terrorism war?

in the news conference.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 535 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sat, Sep 22, 2001 (08:35) * 11 lines 
 
Much of the Afghan intelligentia was systematically slaughtered between
1978-1982 by KGB-trained Afghan puppet police force. So many, in fact,
that it was said to produce a statistical decline in the literacy rate of
that country. Many of those that survived and did not flee the country --
e.g., stayed and fought with the resistance -- were then systematically
butchered by the Taliban when they began to consolidate power.

It's really a shame. There once were several million educated and
modern-thinking Afghans like Tamim Ansary, the author of that wonderful
article last week on why the Taliban do not respresent Afghanistan.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 536 of 783: Culcha (terry) * Sat, Sep 22, 2001 (09:19) * 1 lines 
 
The above should have been attributed to David Kline.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 537 of 783: Evelyn  (lafn) * Sat, Sep 22, 2001 (09:45) * 3 lines 
 
Both of these from the recent New Yorker.
Hendrik Hertzberg, Susan Sontag, John Updike,.....
I only read The New Yorker for their cartoons & fiction features. I don't think that fiction authors know any more about international stategies than you or I.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 538 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Sat, Sep 22, 2001 (11:34) * 1 lines 
 
LOL! Add to that list Harold Pinter...


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 539 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Sat, Sep 22, 2001 (12:07) * 4 lines 
 
I don't think that fiction authors know any more about international stategies than you or I.
Well said, Evelyn!

Now that the number of missing/dead has gone up, could someone please post a current list with the total numbers by nationalities.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 540 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sat, Sep 22, 2001 (12:45) * 1 lines 
 
Absolutely moon, I'll take Christianne Amanpour over Susan Sontag any day as a political commentator.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 541 of 783: suzee   (suzee202000) * Sat, Sep 22, 2001 (13:37) * 133 lines 
 
Fox News has an excellent page with around the world dead and missing, but
it has not been updated with the latest figures.

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/americaunited/wtc_maps/worldinfo.htm


The most recent information:

Saturday, September 22 10:33 AM SGT

US toll put at 6,818 as countries report more missing
NEW YORK, Sept 21 (AFP) -

The death toll from the attacks on the United States stood at 6,818 Saturday after 11 more bodies were pulled from the ruins of the World Trade Center.

New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani said Friday the number of missing could still fluctuate as officials cross check reports of missing people.

More than 60 countries have now reported citizens dead or missing, mostly in New York, one of the world's most cosmopolitan cities.

But despite continuing round-the-clock rescue efforts, there was now next to no chance of pulling survivors from the rubble of the World Trade Center.

UNITED STATES officials have given tallies that add up to 6,818 dead or missing in all the attacks of September 11, but they have still not established the total number of their nationals among the victims 11 days after the attack.

In New York, 6,585 people were killed or listed as missing from the World Trade Center disaster (comprising 252 confirmed dead and 6,333 missing, presumed dead). Workers have identified 183 bodies, including those of 34 firemen.

At the Pentagon, 189 people are confirmed dead or missing. So far, 117 bodies have been recovered, of which 52 have been identified as of Friday. The Department of Defense said search and recovery operations would continue.

The missing figure at both sites include the 157 passengers and crew of the two hijacked aircraft that crashed into the World Trade Center and the 64 on the one that flew into the Pentagon.

Adding the 44 on the hijacked plane that crashed in Pennsylvania, the number of people on the four planes is given as 265.

(American Airlines flight 11, the first to hit the twin towers of the WTC, was carrying 92 passengers and crew; United Airlines flight 175, which hit the second tower, had 65 people on board; American Airlines flight 77, which crashed into the Pentagon, was carrying 64 people; and United Airlines 93, which crashed in Pennsylvania without reaching its target, had 44 on board.)

ARGENTINA said four of its nationals were missing.

AUSTRALIA said three of its nationals were confirmed dead. Another 20 who were in the top floors of the World Trade Center were missing, presumed dead, and consular staff in Canberra and New York were looking for another 32 Australians reported as missing.

AUSTRIA said around 40 of its nationals were missing, one of them a 25-year-old woman named only as Alexandra H. who worked in a bank in the World Trade Center.

BANGLADESH said at least 50 Bangladeshis were presumed killed in the carnage at the World Trade Center, where many worked in restaurants and offices.

BELGIUM said one of its nationals was missing.

BRAZIL said at least 55 of its nationals were missing.

BRITAIN lost around 250 of its citizens, according to New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani.

BULGARIA said that one of its citizens was missing.

CAMBODIA said it feared that some 20 of its nationals were missing following the attacks.

CANADA said three of its nationals were confirmed dead and between 35 and 40 were still missing.

CHILE's New York consulate said two of its nationals were missing and feared dead, although more than 250 have been reported missing by relatives.

CHINA said two Chinese nationals were killed and another was missing. A man and woman, both in their 60s, died aboard the plane that crashed into the Pentagon. Chinese authorities originally said three people had died, but the foreign ministry revised the figure, saying that a man, Chen Xiaobing, had been rescued from the lower floors of the building. A 41-year-old Chinese was reported missing.

COLOMBIA's consulate in New York said two of its nationals were killed -- one aboard an American Airlines plane that slammed into the side of the twin towers -- while 10 others were missing. Earlier, Colombia's Red Cross had said that 295 people were reported missing. While 17 people worked in the twin towers, others may have been present in the area at the time.

The CZECH REPUBLIC said 56 of its citizens who had been in the United States were unaccounted for. Of those, up to 15 nationals were thought to have been in New York or Washington at the time of the attacks, according to the foreign ministry.

DENMARK's foreign ministry said that all of its citizens previously reported missing had turned up safe and sound and that there had therefore been no Danish casualties in the attacks.

The DOMINICAN REPUBLIC said one citizen, a paramedic, was found dead and 30 are missing, according to the country's consulate in New York.

ECUADOR listed seven citizens as dead, including one who was a passenger on a hijacked airliner, and 29 missing.

EGYPT's ambassador to the United States said four Egyptians were feared dead.

EL SALVADOR said one of its citizens died on one of the hijacked planes, and up to 100 more were missing.

FINLAND said that none of its nationals were missing, having earlier said three people were unaccounted for. The Finnish consulate in New York originally said it was trying to track down 17 nationals.

FRANCE said a small number of its nationals working in the World Trade Center were unaccounted for. A foreign ministry spokesman said no French dead have yet been confirmed.

GAMBIA said that one of its citizens who worked in the World Trade Center was presumed dead.

GERMANY said it was "highly probable" that 100 Germans had been killed in New York. Estimates of the total German toll have fallen from 600 last Friday to 270 at the weekend, and fewer than 170 by Monday evening.

GHANA said "scores" of its nationals had worked in the World Trade Center and not all had been accounted for. According to private radio, at least four Ghanaians, one a woman, have been reported missing by their families.

GUATEMALA said five of its citizens are missing.

GUINEA lost several citizens in the attacks, according to the PANA news agency, although neither government officials nor local press could confirm the report.

HONG KONG said 16 people were missing.

HONDURAS said one of its nationals was killed at the trade center and that three other Honduran women were missing, but added that it had information that up to 500 Hondurans and Salvadorans worked in the towers, although not necessarily at the time of the disaster.

HUNGARY said it had contacted 102 of the 143 Hungarian nationals reported missing by relatives after the attacks. The foreign ministry said it had no information indicating that any might be among the victims.

INDONESIA said one of its citizens died on one of the four hijacked planes and another of its citizens was missing.

IRELAND said five Irish citizens had been confirmed dead, including a woman and her four-year-old daughter who perished aboard one of the jets that hit the World Trade Center and a worker in one of the towers. More than 20 other Irish nationals were missing.

ISRAEL said at least four of its nationals were presumed dead, two on the doomed flights and two in the twin towers, and another 60 were unaccounted for. A foreign ministry spokesman said the toll could still fall as more people were traced.

ITALY said 10 Italian nationals were still missing, according to consular authorities.

JAPAN said as many as 44 of its nationals remain unaccounted for, 20 more than officially listed as missing. Twenty-two of the presumed victims worked at Japanese-affiliated offices in the World Trade Center. One is believed to have been aboard one of the planes which crashed into them, and another is missing after United Airlines Flight 93 crashed in Pennsylvania.

JORDAN said one of its nationals, who also had US citizenship, was believed to be in the World Trade Center at the time of the attack.

KENYA was missing one national, a computer analyst who worked in the World Trade Center, according to local media.

LEBANON said two of its nationals, including one of the suspected hijackers, are confirmed dead and four others are missing.

MALAYSIA said four of its nationals working in the World Trade Center were missing.

MEXICO was missing 20 nationals in the attacks on the World Trade Center, including a consular employee. The Mexican consul in New York, Salvador Beltran, said 150 Mexicans worked in the center, though media said hundreds more worked in restaurants on the lower levels and in the immediate vicinity.

Tepayac, a network of Mexican community organizations, said as many as 500 Mexicans are feared dead in the collapsed towers.

THE NETHERLANDS said at least three of its citizens had died.

NORWAY said one tourist is unaccounted for, but there was no indication he had been at the World Trade Center.

NIGERIA said one person was dead and four missing or wounded, Nigerian Consul General Tafiq Oseni said in New York. The victim was a woman working as an accountant in the World Trade Center's Windows on the World restaurant. Leading newspaper The Guardian reported, however, that the figure for missing nationals may be far higher.

PAKISTAN said one Pakistani was confirmed dead and at least 200 were missing. Another 15 were injured, some seriously, after being pulled from the rubble. A government spokesman said around 650 Pakistani nationals worked in the World Trade Center.

PARAGUAY said two of its citizens were missing and presumed dead.

PERU lost one citizen, a New York resident who worked in the World Trade Center, according to local media, and Peruvian diplomats in the United States said another five Peruvians were missing.

THE PHILIPPINES said two Filipinos were confirmed dead and 115 were missing.

POLAND said five of its citizens were reported missing.

PORTUGAL said five Portuguese were believed to have died in the World Trade Center.

RUSSIA said 117 of its nationals were missing, believed killed.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 542 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sat, Sep 22, 2001 (22:52) * 34 lines 
 
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 12:25:26 -0400
From: "cpmcnel@usit.net"
To: "terry@www.spring.net"
Subject: RE: WTC - How do you feel?

[ The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set. ]
[ Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set. ]
[ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ]


Hi Paul, Carol Nelson here. I am in south Florida
baby sitting my grandchildren. We drove down
The Farm last week through hurricane Gabriella.
My Daughter Kim McCusker and her husband Paul
are in NYC, ground zero. They are
part of the search and rescue team deployed from the
Miami-Dade Area. They are both highly trained K-9 search and
rescue fire fighters.They have been there about a week already
and will probably not retutn until the end of next week.
So we are getting first hand info on a daily basis. Not Good!

I have a friend that works around the block on Broad street.
She called me after the first hit and we were on the phone
when the second plane hit. You could hear and feel it thru
the phone lines.

I heard Michael Gavin's cousin was in one of the bulidings
and is missing.

All the talk of WAR is so bad. So hard to hear and think
about. All I can do is continue to pray for peace.

Peace
Carol


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 543 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sat, Sep 22, 2001 (22:58) * 72 lines 
 

Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 15:23:33 -0700
From: Gerald Wheeler
To: Paul Terry Walhus
Subject: Re: WTC - How do you feel?

it is now about midnight sept. 21, 2001...autumn equinox, i am in
oakland california, i just finished watching the a's beat seattle in
the first game of a three game series, between innings i flipped over

a channel to watch what most everyone else that was watching
television tonight was probably watching, the fund-raiser and tribute

to those who died ten days ago in the attacks on the wtc and the
pentagon and the final plane that was brought down most likely by a
group of courageous passengers who took on the hijackers and crashed
that plane in a field in pennsylvania, so many heroes keep emerging
from the center of the tragedy, and what a powerful assembly there on

the tv, i am moved by the sense that we as a nation, for the first
time in my memory, have been brought together like never before, and
it's real and it's full of power and authenticity and i catch a
glimmer of something inside of me that suddenly says that america
really is worth saving, and i let that glimmer grow into more of a
flame and i see that for all of its' faults, there just isn't
anything or any other place like this place and the freedom that it
provides everyone of us who share its' soil...i think about what to
do about achieving justice and how it is a good idea to take the time

to let things settle in the mind and calm that which cries out for
revenge, because revenge is knee-jerk and full of anger and confusion

and does not offer real satisfaction because its' results are uneven
and because an uneven response creates more suffering...i think about

who or what the enemy really is and i come to the conclusion that the

enemy is not the taliban or hezbollah or the islamic jihad or osama
bin laden or fundamentalist christians or fundamentalist jews or
fundamentalist moslems or jerry falwell or yassar arrafat or north
korea or chevron oil or suicide bombers or the bible or the
koran...it is evil...the real enemy is simply evil, evil in whatever
form and shape it may incarnate into at any time or place, and i
think about how it is imperative that we learn to recognize evil in
all its' forms and whenever and wherever it appears, and that we take

sufficient care to respond in ways in which its' effects are
cancelled and diffused, and this applies to the everyday, right under

our nose kinds of evil, out to the broader, affecting all of humanity

kinds as well, and that how we respond will determine the outcome of
events in the future, and i think about what that means to me
individually and i am reminded of how grateful i am that i have a way

to get calm, that i learned how to meditate thirty years ago and try
to practice on a regular basis, oh it doesn't always prevent one from

getting caught in the cross-fire but sometimes it seems like it helps

slow down the bullets so that you can see where to not step,
non-action thru action, and makes you aware that everything begins in

the mind, everything, so the key is to tame the fury of the mind, and

transform pain and hardship into compassion and real strength by
doing so, we individually hold the answer to our situation but to see

that clearly we must first conquer the fury...om mani padme om!


--all the best, gerald wheeler


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 544 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sat, Sep 22, 2001 (23:59) * 51 lines 
 
David Kline (dkline) Sat Sep 22 '01 (12:11) 49 lines

There's also a difference between saying the US "created" Bin Laden and
the Taliban and saying -- much more correctly -- that our policies
*contributed* (mostly indirectly) to their emergence and rise to power.

The US funded the already-fighting Afghan resistance to Soviet occupation
beginning in the early 1980s -- as well it should have. But the problem
was, beginning in about 1983-84 and despite warnings from many people
(l'il ol' me included), the US allowed the Pakistani intelligence services
(SIS) to channel the great bulk of that aid to the fanatical
fundamentalist wing of the resistance, called Hezbi Islami.

(And just to be clear, the fundamentalists did almost NO fighting against
the Russians during the war. They concentrated their fire on rival
resistance groups such as Ahmed Shah massoud's "Northern Alliance.")

The Paks had their own reasons for doing this, of course, including
influence within SIS from Pakistan's own emerging fundamentalists (Jamiatt
Islami), as well as a desire to see a liberated but weak Afghanistan.

But still, it was our guns and money, and we should have funneled it
equally to all forces actually fighting for liberation from the USSR, or
if we were really smart, mostly to forces (such as Massoud or Mr. Rabbani
or even the Gailani clan) with whom we could expect to have a civil
conversation and normal state relations in a post-Soviet Afghanistan.

But Washington claimed its hands were tied and it couldn't intervene in
Pakistan's "internal affairs." Remember, during the 80s the US was very
concerned to keep Pakistan within the anti-Soviet orbit, even if it meant
looking the other way re: nuclear development or how much arms & money
went to which rebel forces. I'm not saying that was right -- in fact, I
urged responsible officials to stop allowing our aid to be channeled to
the fundamentalists before they became too strong. But this sort of
"Realpolitik" was very much SOP for Washington during the 1970s and 80s.

As the Soviets neared defeat in Afghanistan in 1985-86, Saudi fanatics
such as Bin Laden and other foreign Arab volunteers began pouring in to
Afghanistan. By 1987-88, the Soviets were gone and the US (in another
stupid move) swung its aid pendulum to the other extreme and basically
abandoned the Afghan people to starve. In the years that followed, then,
the emergent Taliban were aided and abetted both by Afghanistan's small
fundamentalist wing (Hezbi Islami) as well as by the Pak SIS, now
dominated by Jamiat Islami (Pakistani fundamentalist) forces.

And in the end, the Taliban filled the vacumn left by 20 years of a near
genocidal war against the Soviets. The rest is history.

Sorry to be a broken record on this, but it just riles me to hear people
spout half-truths about who the Taliban are and how they emerged -- as if
Washington's myopia circa 1984-85 justfies what happened at the WTC.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 545 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Sun, Sep 23, 2001 (00:02) * 43 lines 
 
September 22, 2001
THE INVESTIGATION
Tape Reveals Wild Struggle on Flight 93
By JAMES RISEN and DAVID JOHNSTON
ASHINGTON, Sept. 21 — A desperate and wild struggle took place aboard
the hijacked United Airlines Flight 93 before it crashed in
southwestern Pennsylvania, according to the plane's cockpit voice
recorder, law enforcement officials said today.
The recording has been played for Attorney General John Ashcroft and
the F.B.I. director, Robert S. Mueller III, the officials said.
And while it did not provide a clear or complete picture, it seemed
certain that there was a chaotic confrontation that apparently led to
the crash of the jet.
In another development, American intelligence officials said today
they believed that the assassination of the leader of the anti- Taliban
alliance in Afghanistan on Sept. 9 was probably carried out by
associates of Osama bin Laden.
The assassination appears to have been the first step in the terror
plot that culminated in the attacks on the United States two days
later, the officials said.
The voice recorder picked up scuffling sounds as well as shouts in
Arabic and English, the officials said, but listeners have not been
able to discern what was happening or who among the passengers, crew
members or hijackers was involved in the struggle.
In the past week, officials have said that the passengers appeared to
have stormed the cockpit after the four hijackers commandeered the
flight. That account has been based primarily on cellphone
conversations between passengers and people on the ground.
Technical experts are continuing their efforts to enhance the sounds
from the cockpit listening device, which uses microphones in the
headsets of the pilots and mounted on the cockpit ceiling.
Mr. Mueller visited the crash site on Thursday after he received a
preliminary briefing on the recorder's contents. He said that the
passengers heroically prevented the hijackers from striking their
target, an undetermined site in Washington.
"I think both of us here and — both the attorney general and I and the
attorney general of Pennsylvania have indicated we believe those
passengers on this jet were absolute heroes and their actions during
this flight were heroic," he said.
"
continued at
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/22/national/22INQU.html?todaysheadlines



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 546 of 783: suzee   (suzee202000) * Sun, Sep 23, 2001 (01:45) * 33 lines 
 
A Former Pakistani Prime Minister Weighs In
By Benazir Bhutto
Friday, Sept. 21, 2001

Little in life springs from whole cloth. That is especially true of Sept. 11, 2001, a date stained into the calendar of civilization. This was a calamity two decades in the making. At the end of 1979, the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, hoping to strengthen their position in Central Asia and develop proximity to the resources and warm ports of the Gulf. Almost immediately an indigenous insurrection developed to challenge the Soviet occupation. The freedom fighters were called the "Mujahadeen" and were composed of seven different factions.

In its early days, the Reagan administration made a decision that would shape the course of history. It backed the one faction most likely to successfully challenge the Soviets on the battlefield. Working with their counterparts in the Pakistani Inter Services Intelligence (ISI), the CIA armed, trained, and empowered the most extreme, anti-modernity, anti-Western zealots within the Mujahadeen. This propelled the extremists to a leadership position in the war of resistance and in the politics that followed.

The war in Afghanistan caused one of the great refugee migrations in modern history. Nearly three million Afghans crossed into Pakistan to escape the fighting. Almost immediately scores of special Islamic schools, called Madrassas, sprang up. The boys that were sent there by their parents to be nourished and educated were taught extremism, intolerance, subjugation of women, and violence. All of these elements are antithetical to the Holy Book and to the teachings of the Prophet.

When the children were not being brainwashed, they were trained in hand-to-hand combat, the use of weapons, and terrorist strategy. These schools became the recruitment centers for the fanatic administration that ultimately took control of Afghanistan after the Soviet exit. The new political movement was named after the schools themselves. The word "Talib" means student!

I became prime minister of Pakistan in 1988 during the waning days of the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. The last Soviet troops were airlifted out of Afghanistan on Feb. 15, 1989. The international community quickly turned its attention to events in Europe and the fall of the Berlin Wall. I was left concerned at the lack of a post-Soviet plan for the reconstruction and governing of Afghanistan. I was also concerned at the go-at-it-alone attitude of the extremist factions that wanted the government, and ultimately they prevailed. I suspected that having defeated one superpower, the zealots felt invincible and divinely empowered to take aim at another.

As a moderate, progressive, democratically elected woman prime minister of Pakistan, I was a threat to the fundamentalist zealots on multiple levels and targeted by them in both my governments. They had the support of sympathetic elements within Pakistan's security apparatus and the financial support of people like Osama Bin Laden. I had closed their training university in Peshawar and was targeted for that. I had tracked down and extradited the Ramzi Yousef, the perpetrator of the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center, and was targeted for that. My government was destabilized. Money was pilfered and laundered from state banks to fund the campaigns of opposition parties. We learned from Ramzi Yousef before he was extradited to the United States that I was the object of two separate assassination attempts in 1993. Osama Bin Laden personally spent over $10 million in late 1989 in support of a motion of no confidence to topple my government. And ultimately, with the active support of elements of the Pakistani
ilitary, my two democratically elected governments were sacked and elections rigged to ensure that my party would not return to power. Beware the power of zealots who are well-funded, well-armed, and supported by elements of your own government!

That brings us to the present. A complex and well-funded terrorist network executed the most inhuman terrorist attack in history. The target was America, but it was also the values of freedom everywhere. It seemed Osama and his cohorts read Professor Samuel Huntington's The Clash of Civilizations and wished to provoke its thesis into reality. Their goal is for the Muslim world to see U.S. retaliation as an act of aggression against Islam. Sept. 11 was the bait.

Sadly, this is not over. The United States responded quickly in declaring a fight against international terrorism and cautioned it will be a long process. Asked to assist the U.S. effort against terrorism, Islamabad responded positively. It did this despite elements within the military intelligence complex that have sympathy for the Taliban.

Pakistan is saddled with $38 billion in international debt, with $4 billion owed to America. With Egypt and Jordan, the United States has repaid political support with debt retirement in the past. Islamabad expects the same treatment. It also expects the repeal of the discriminatory Pressler amendment denying military and economic aid to Pakistan because of its nuclear program.

There is one price that Islamabad could demand that is too great and too dangerous to grant. The United States and the Commonwealth support the holding of free, fair, party-based elections to restore democracy to my nation in 2002. Islamabad may be tempted to ask the United States to abandon its support for Pakistani democracy in exchange for support in the war against international terrorism. The previous military dictator General Zia did this successfully in the '80s. But pressure for a return to democracy should continue. In fact, in light of the horrible lessons of Afghanistan in the 1980s, the United States should be exquisitely sensitive to the fact that democracies don't start wars; democracies don't engage in international terrorism. Allowing dictatorship to strengthen its stranglehold over the democratic institutions of Pakistan can, in the long run, create an even greater Frankenstein than the U.S. miscalculation with the Mujahadeen in the 1980s. Osama commandeers jets. Pakistan has nuclear weapon
. The United States must demand a democratic Pakistan to stave off a true catastrophe in the future.

Benazir Bhutto is the former prime minister of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

http://slate.msn.com/code/ThisJustIn/ThisJustIn.asp?Show=9/21/2001&idMessage=8335






 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 547 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Mon, Sep 24, 2001 (16:35) * 7 lines 
 
For some idea of what the rest of the world is up against, I recommend this little essay of a book report with thanks to JSK for suggesting I read it:


PROPHETS, CULTS AND MADNESS
http://www.cix.co.uk/~acampbell/bookreviews/r/stevens-price-2.html




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 548 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Mon, Sep 24, 2001 (23:11) * 82 lines 
 
From: William Meyers
To: tincanman99@aol.com, paul@spring.net, melvyn@freewwweb.com, mmc@well.com,
moon93@aol.com, pgribbin@megs.inet.net, malysaght@aol.com,
dfrohman@aol.com
Subject: a subway ride

Postapocalyptic Meditations
23 September 2001


Thursday morning of last week I was taking the subway to work as usual,
about nine in the morning, down from Morningside Heights to our office
on 62nd Street, across from Lincoln Center. The train was packed full of
people, as it always is in the morning rush hour, and I found a nook in
which to tuck myself, next to the motorman's small compartment, at
thefront of the train. There was enough space around me there to hold up
my copy of the day's newspaper and read the first paragraphs of the
stories on the front page, but only by keeping the paper folded in half.

BUSH ORDERS HEAVY BOMBERS NEAR AFGHANS;
DEMANDS BIN LADEN NOW, NOT NEGOTIATIONS

That was the headline on the Late Edition of Thursday's Times.

At the 96th Street station, where the local train shares the platform
with the express and much movement of people from one train to the other
goes on, a moment of panic suddenly struck. Shouts of alarm, screams of
terror grabbed everyone's attention in the car where I was still
standing. Outside the window people were running past the front of the
train and toward the 94th Street exit. Inside the car people were
yelling, "What's happening? What's going on?" Outside on the platform,
they were too busy trying to get away to hear anything but their own
terrified voices.

It occurred to me that at that moment, or any succeeding one, a blinding
white flash and explosion could instantly obliterate me and everyone
around me.

I waited for that to happen, as one moment succeeded the next. The crush
of beings outside the train kept struggling for the exit.

Then the door of the motorman's compartment opened, and the motorman --
tall and commanding, studded with communications gear -- emerged to
assess the scene. I was thinking, "Just keep moving, man!" But I
couldn't utter a word. He spoke something into his intercom about how
there was "an altercation" on the platform that needed to be
investigated. Then he got back into his compartment and shut the door. I
prayed that that would be the end of it and the doors of the train would
close.

The doors closed, and the train moved out. The south end of the platform
slipped by, and the lights of the station fell behind us, overtaken by
the darkness of the tunnel. People looked at each other in fear and
relief.

At some point before we reached the next station, 86th Street -- a local
stop -- I realized how much adrenalin had been pumping through my body.
Slumping against the door of the motorman's compartment, I closed my
eyes and waited for the enormous rush of energy to pass.

By the time we reached 66th Street, where I exited the subway, I was
thinking that the story of whatever had happened back there would be
emerging in the media soon and that I should be on the lookout and
looking closely for it. The person in the token booth at 66th Street had
no idea what had happened back up the line. It was still too early, I
thought.

What could have happened? What did "altercation" mean? Had a fistfight
broken out? Had it been "to the death"? Did one or both of the fighters
look Arabic? Had one of them pulled a gun, or a bomb, or a flask of
anthrax?

Nothing was reported later in the media. At least nothing came within
range of my own sensors. Apparently it had been just another routine
incident -- one of all too many that have been occurring in our lives
here for the
last couple of weeks. I think it would be safe to say that the
stressload in Manhattan has been reaching a maximum tolerance level. But
it's the new reality.

-- Wm



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 549 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Sep 25, 2001 (14:18) * 4 lines 
 
Today, in a short while, on All Things Considered.

09.25.01
The Bin Laden Group is a diversified corporation with an estimated $5 billion in annual revenue. It's owned and run by the Saudi family of accused terrorist mastermind Osama bin Laden. The allegations against the "black sheep" of the Bin Laden family have created serious trouble for the family business as partners and associates are backing away. Hear about the Bin Laden Group, Tuesday on All Things Considered.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 550 of 783: winter  (winter) * Tue, Sep 25, 2001 (18:15) * 26 lines 
 
I received the following from my advisor, who used to work for Amnesty International in the UK. He's got friends working at the BBC, and this memo came out recently:

-----Original Message-----
From: Internal Communications
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 2:19 PM
Subject: CNN USING 1991 FOOTAGE

This email is being sent to all staff
-------------------------------------------
There's an important point in the power of press, specifically the Power of CNN. All around the world we are subjected to 3 or 4 huge news distributors, and one of them - as you well know - is CNN. Very well, I guess all of you have been seeing (just as I've been) images from this company.

In Particular, one set of images caught my attention: the Palestinians celebrating the bombing, out on the streets, eating celebration sweets and making funny faces for the camera.

Well, THOSE IMAGES WERE SHOT BACK IN 1991!!!
Those are images of Palestinians celebrating the invasion of Kuwait!
It's simply unacceptable that a super-power of communications as CNN
uses images which do not correspond to the reality in talking about so serious of an issue.

At the BBC here, we have these footages on videotapes recorded in 1991, with the very same images. But now, think for a moment about the impact of such images. Your people are hurt, emotionally fragile, and this kind of broadcast has very high possiblity of causing waves of anger and rage against the Palestinians.

It's simply irresponsible to show images such as those.

Russell Grossman | Head of Internal Communication | BBC
Third Floor | London Broadcasting House |
LONDON W1A 1AA



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 551 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Tue, Sep 25, 2001 (18:53) * 54 lines 
 
Patriotism, athletics go hand in hand
09/24/2001

Dave Kindred
The Sporting News

A brilliant day, a Friday in the fall, the sun warm on our backs, we walked to the south portico of the United States Capitol. From that high place we saw in the middle distance the Washington Monument, and we saw, at the far end, the Lincoln Memorial. When we saw all that before us on a beautiful day in a fall of sadness, my friend Verenda said, “Wow.”

Because we live in Washington, we have seen these places a thousand times. But Verenda had it right. Wow. To see these places now, to see them after September 11, is to see them anew. So we walked from the Capitol, and we walked for hours.

We saw the bronze of a Civil War general on horseback, soldiers hanging onto an artillery caisson clattering to his side. We saw our faces in mirrored black granite that moans of Vietnam dead. We stood in a marble temple and read on a wall a president's words: “The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here . . .”

We stopped in a museum to see the Star-Spangled Banner. By the dawn's early light of September 14, 1814, the massive flag yet waved over Baltimore's Fort McHenry. Americans had outlasted a British siege that (a survivor said) “threw at least 1,800 shells among us. We were like pigeons tied by the legs to be shot at.” The lawyer Francis Scott Key saw that flag and in a poem called his nation “the land of the free and the home of the brave.”

We saw three helicopters descend to the White House, always three to confuse an enemy, the three flying under the thunderous cover of fighter jets. We saw flowers left on the Mall by some people from Mongolia who have embraced America. We saw a president's words cut into purple stone: “The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.”

The night before our walk, Lisa Beamer came to the Capitol. Her husband had risen against fear. When hijackers thought to fly to Washington -- to destroy the White House? the Capitol? -- Todd Beamer did the kind of brave, selfless thing that is the beating heart of a nation made and sustained by brave, selfless people.

Passengers knew planes had crashed into buildings. Beamer and three other men decided to act. Ten years ago, he had been a basketball guard and baseball shortstop/centerfielder at Wheaton College in Illinois. “Good athlete with good speed, batted second for us, led off sometimes . . . a very solid leader . . . deeply religious . . . very unselfish,” said his old baseball coach, Ron Frank. “What he did is in total keeping with the man he was.”

Beamer couldn't reach his wife by phone. He asked a GTE Airfone supervisor to recite with him the Lord's Prayer and to call his wife. The last words the supervisor heard from Todd Beamer were these: “Are you guys ready? Let's roll.”

United Flight 93 soon crashed into the Pennsylvania countryside, apparently taken down in a struggle between passengers and hijackers.

Nine days later, Lisa Beamer came to the Capitol to hear President Bush address the nation. “Seeing the Capitol lit up, it's just glorious,” she said. “Lawmakers all thanked me for what Todd did. Not only the lives saved, but imagine the emotional devastation to this nation if the Capitol no longer existed.”

Let's roll. Saturday morning, going to a football game in Annapolis, we turned toward Navy-Marine Corps Memorial Stadium, turning on Farragut Road, named for the sailor who 137 years ago said, “Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!” Such men, such a nation.

If ever you need reminded of what America is and what it can be, turn down Farragut Road and spend a Saturday afternoon at a Navy football game.

There you might talk to a retired captain, Dick Riley of Des Moines, Iowa, class of ‘42 with 26 years of active duty. He's 81 years old and on a Saturday in Annapolis he says, “We graduated 12 days after Pearl Harbor, 563 of us, and we lost 28 in the war. I pray that today's Midshipmen, special kids each and every one, have as thoroughly fulfilling experiences as I did serving our country.”

Thirty thousand people came to a stadium where even the walls speak of courage: IWO JIMA, MIDWAY, NORMANDY, INCHON, QUANG TRI. The thousands saw a fighter jet fly-over. They heard Francis Scott Key's poem sung a cappella. Just before noon, linebackers Mike Chiesl and Dan Ryno led Navy onto the field in an all-out sprint.

They carried high an American flag.

No one had ever done that for a Navy game.

But never before had there been a September 11, 2001.

At dinner Friday night, Chiesl and Ryno had seen the flag in a corner of a hotel lobby.

Permission, sir, to liberate the flag.

Granted.

“We wanted to do that for the Naval Academy,” Chiesl said. “And we were doing it for all of America.”

He's a Texan, a big one, and he stood tall. His eyes were those of a happy young man with journeys to make. When he smiled, he was as handsome as a flag seen by the dawn's early light.

Dave Kindred is a contributing writer for The Sporting News. Email him at kindred@sportingnews.com.





 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 552 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Tue, Sep 25, 2001 (20:04) * 3 lines 
 
It's simply unacceptable that a super-power of communications as CNN
uses images which do not correspond to the reality in talking about so serious of an issue.

Welcome to real world. :-( Mr.Orwell we need you)


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 553 of 783: Evelyn  (lafn) * Tue, Sep 25, 2001 (20:30) * 2 lines 
 
Memo to BBC. That footage was shown by all the TV stations, not just CNN.
They sure sound high and mighty.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 554 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Tue, Sep 25, 2001 (22:27) * 3 lines 
 
Don't make the mistake of watching CBC new on C_SPAN. I came as close to hurling something through my television as I ever have. If we are so loathesome give us back our aid and cease trading with us. As for the media....don't you wonder whose side they're on?! Whose best interest in mind? Other than their own?!

Let me hasten to add that I know more nice Canadians than I do Canadian Broadcasting writers... It just infuriated me. The BBC has gone down the tubes I hear from local UK'ers. even they hunt for a more reliable source of news.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 555 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus  (terry) * Tue, Sep 25, 2001 (23:16) * 3 lines 
 
MSNBC did a real good story tonight on the Taliban and the Afghan Northern Alliance. They showed some good footage of Massoud (referenced earlier in this topic) who has been pleading with the West for years to give him just a little bit of aid. He said words to the effect that "give me a little help and I'll take care of Bin Laden for you, otherwise their will be grave consequences for the West.

What better indication of Bin Laden's guilt than the assasination of Massoud just one day for the World Trade Center attack?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 556 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus  (terry) * Tue, Sep 25, 2001 (23:18) * 1 lines 
 



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 557 of 783: suzee   (suzee202000) * Wed, Sep 26, 2001 (01:48) * 58 lines 
 
Message 550:" In Particular, one set of images caught my attention: the Palestinians celebrating the bombing, out on the streets, eating celebration sweets and making funny faces for the camera."

"Well, THOSE IMAGES WERE SHOT BACK IN 1991!!!
Those are images of Palestinians celebrating the invasion of Kuwait!"
---------------------------------

CNN statement about false claim it used old video

Brazilian university statement says no fact to original claim
September 20, 2001 Posted: 4:02 PM EDT (2002 GMT)

CNN asks that you copy and e-mail this statement to whomever asks about it.)

There is absolutely no truth to the information that is now distributed on the Internet that CNN used 10-year-old video when showing the celebrating of some Palestinians in East Jerusalem after the terror attacks in the U.S. The video was shot that day by a Reuters camera crew. CNN is a client of Reuters and like other clients, received the video and broadcast it. Reuters officials have publicly made the facts clear as well.


The allegation is false. The source of the allegation has withdrawn it and apologized. It was started by a Brazilian student who now says he immediately posted a correction once he knew the information was not true. This is the statement by his university -- UNICAMP -- Universidad Estatal de Campinas-Brasil.

Again, please read this -- and copy it -- and send it to anyone you know who may have the false information. Thank you.

OFFICIAL STATEMENT by Universidad de Campinas-Brasil
17/09/01

UNICAMP (Universidad Estatal de Campinas-Brasil) would like to announce that it has no knowledge of a videotape from 1991, whose images supposedly aired on CNN showing Palestinians celebrating the terrorist attacks in the U.S. The tape was supposedly from 1991, and there were rumors that the images were passed off as current.

This information was later denied, as soon as it proved false, by Márcio A. V. Carvalho, a student at UNICAMP. He approached the administration today, 17.09.2001, to clarify the following:

-- the information he got, verbally, was that a professor from another institution (not from UNICAMP) had the tape;

-- he sent the information to a discussion group e-mail list;

-- many people from this list were interested in the subject and requested more details;

-- he again contacted the person who first gave him the information and the person denied having the tape;

-- the student immediately sent out a note clarifying what happened to the people from his e-mail list.

The original message, however, was distributed all over the world, often with many distortions, including a falsified by-line article from the student. He affirms that a hacker attacked his domain. Several E-mails have been sent on his behalf and those dating from 15.09.2001 should be ignored.

Among the distortions is the fact that UNICAMP would be analyzing the tape, which is absolutely false. The administration considers this alert definitive and will be careful to avoid new rumors.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/20/cnn.statement/

-------------------------------------

Nevertheless, there have been many(talking heads,"experts", writers)who have questioned exactly how that videotape came to be - not that it did not happen, rather, was it staged? who exactly were the people? where exactly was it?, etc.














 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 558 of 783: Beth  (Bethanne) * Wed, Sep 26, 2001 (03:18) * 7 lines 
 
People, I live in Atlanta ( the home of CNN )and I have many friends ( including the Senior Copy Editor for CNN Headline News ) who work at CNN Center downtown, so I gotta speak up on their behalf. CNN would NOT stoop to such a shabby, lazy and downright dishonest tactic, of showing 10 year old footage, while claiming it was current.

CNN got taken to the cleaners a couple of years ago, about a story they ran (about biological warfare ) that later turned out to be false. Many, many heads rolled as a result and the public perception of CNN being the first place we all turn to for "accurate" breaking news, took a major, major hit.

As a result, they double check, triple check and quadrupile check the veracity of ALL stories/film footage BEFORE it is broadcast.

Also, it is worth noting.....ALL the major US networks ( ABC, Fox, CBS, NBC )broadcast this footage of the Palestinains dancing in the streets, it wasn't just CNN.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 559 of 783: Donna DL  (fitzwd) * Wed, Sep 26, 2001 (06:09) * 4 lines 
 
(Marcia) Without reading through a lot of posts to see if anyone answeed Laura, rhetorical question, we did pay reparations to the Japanese Americans we interred in WW2...$25,000 each.

Aside from the fear factor that was going around after the Pearl Harbor attack, there were politicians and business people who took advantage of the situation and actually fanned the fire, which ultimately led to the internment. The J-Americans happened to reside on land that is now considered prime real estate in Southern California (think of areas like Santa Monica and Orange County). While the general public viewed the internment as safeguarding America, little did the public know that there were those behind the scenes who had a hidden agenda and who helped manipulate the hysteria and sought to profit from the situation by taking over the real estate (shades of the movie Chinatown and water rights). While some survivors received reparations, it was a mere pittance compared to the value of the land that they lost, where EACH parcel is worth several millions today. These J-Americans had to endure humiliation and financial ruin, and were the victims of ugly racisim and greed, yet they picked up the pie
es of their shattered lives and continued to live as proud Americans.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 560 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Wed, Sep 26, 2001 (09:32) * 1 lines 
 
Had no idea their property was confiscated. How on earth was that done legally...in this country?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 561 of 783: Mari Fulginiti  (mari) * Wed, Sep 26, 2001 (12:19) * 6 lines 
 
How on earth was that done legally...in this country?

I have the same question.

Thanks to Suzee for posting the article debunking the story about the CNN photo. It smelled like urban legend to me, right from the start. Am quickly learning that while the Internet is a great place to share opinions, the facts often suffer.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 562 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Wed, Sep 26, 2001 (12:30) * 1 lines 
 
There's emminent domain for when a government entity wants property for the public good (debatable) in which owners receive some compensation though not anywhere near market value. It has been used for the railroads, schools and other public-private development efforts. Saw a piece on a news magazine show recently on how some town is trying to use it to acquire a whole neighborhood for a Target store. People are up in arms.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 563 of 783: Donna DL  (fitzwd) * Wed, Sep 26, 2001 (12:31) * 3 lines 
 
How on earth was that done legally...in this country?

How on earth was internment of citizens -- not foreign nationals -- U.S. CITIZENS, done legally in this country? Where was the evidence of a threat to national security?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 564 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Wed, Sep 26, 2001 (12:40) * 1 lines 
 
Not to excuse anyone's behavior and the complete lack of reason and illegality, people tend to go a little hysterical when a country's military installation is attacked. There are numerous examples in our history...unfortunately. When there is a threat from a foreign country, people turn xenophobic just as is occurring now. It is interesting to me that we've learned from our past when I see the PR campaigns to educate the ignorant members of our society.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 565 of 783: Moon Dreams  (Moon) * Wed, Sep 26, 2001 (12:53) * 2 lines 
 
It is interesting to me that we've learned from our past when I see the PR campaigns to educate the ignorant members of our society.
Better late than never. Will they go back to being their ignorant selves once the Fall TV season starts?


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 566 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Wed, Sep 26, 2001 (14:48) * 1 lines 
 
Depends on their diet of *reality* TV and idiotic night-time quiz shows.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 567 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Sep 26, 2001 (17:50) * 8 lines 
 
From: Gerald Wheeler

Subject: well worth considering

i'd recommend this to all:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/09/26/ED69828.DTL



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 568 of 783: Evelyn  (lafn) * Wed, Sep 26, 2001 (18:28) * 6 lines 
 
Jerome Karabel is a professor of sociology at the University of California at Berkeley and a senior fellow at the Rockridge Institute

You want *me* to take some academic from *Berkeley* serious???
Those dudes consistently make government - bashing their #1 indoor sport.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 569 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Thu, Sep 27, 2001 (00:40) * 1 lines 
 
Ah yes, Angela Davis taught there, no? Does she still? Kiddies go do your homework!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 570 of 783: suzee   (suzee202000) * Thu, Sep 27, 2001 (01:11) * 25 lines 
 
......How on earth was that done legally...in this country? ....


The US government started to lay the groundwork for controlling subversive activities prior to Pearl Harbor (but in anticipation of joining the war) by passing a slew of new laws. These included the Smith Act, basically intended to suppress "disloyalty."

Roosevelt signed an Executive Order in 1942, giving the army broad power to "exclude" questionable persons from certain areas. A month or so later, he signed a bill passed by congress making it criminal to disobey the order.

I think the legal basis for the internment was the “Alien Enemies Act” passed 150 or so years before. It allowed alien internment during wartime.

At first, some people tried to move to other locations, but there was really no
place to go. Wherever they tried to go, the fear and outcry was so great that
the government then disallowed it and started to round them up.

Those being removed were given 5 days notice and told to dispose of property. The government made some kind of vague offer to store property for them, but at the same time refused to be liable for it. They sold what they could, but obviously many had to “abandon” their homes, boats, businesses, etc.

Japanese-Americans lost millions in property and income and it was not just the Japanese. Germans and Italians were interned, as were some conscientious objectors.

I hope Karen is right that we have learned from our past history. I am not yet
sure.

You can read Executive Order 9066 here:

http://www.foitimes.com/internment/EO9066.html




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 571 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Sep 27, 2001 (07:29) * 25 lines 
 



The more I research the foundations of the al-Qaeda movement, the more depressing it gets. Take a look at the article from which this quote is taken. It's from the work fo a Harvard prof who was researching schools in Pakistan that teach jihad. Here's a quotation from her article:


This is some research regarding the4 al-Qaeda movement by a Harvard Professor who researched schools in Parkistan that teach jihad as a discipline.

"I want to talk to you as I would talk to my own daughter," he suddenly said. "You believe too much in science. Science turns a cheap thing like a piece of metal into something valuable, like an airplane.

"Have you ever thought that you could become precious yourself? The way for a human being to become precious is to obey the principles of the one who created us. The way to become precious is through jihad. Nobody knows when he will die, so you must start the journey toward Islam," he told me kindly.

http://www.bullatomsci.org/issues/2001/jf01/jf01stern.html

Here's another excerpt from that article:

What happens to families whose children become martyrs? Most of the mothers I interviewed said they were happy to have donated their sons to jihad because their sons could help them in the next life--the "real life."

Syed Qurban Hussain, the father of a martyr, said, "Whoever gives his life in the way of Allah lives forever and earns a place in heaven for 70 members of his family, to be selected by the martyr."

Families of martyrs become celebrities after their children die.
"Everyone treats me with more respect now that I have a martyred son," Hussain added. "And when there is a martyr in the village, it encourages more children to join the jihad. It raises the spirit of the entire village."


http://pakistannation.net/ActionAlerts/Alert_pakwar.htm


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 572 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Thu, Sep 27, 2001 (17:41) * 1 lines 
 
From what I have read lately about the Bin Lauden siblings, they want nothing whatever to do with him - no matter his status!


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 573 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Fri, Sep 28, 2001 (08:32) * 56 lines 
 
The Al Queda organization has been ripped open and exposed by ABC News.

Inside Al Qaeda
Bin Laden Defector Ties Hijack Suspect to Training Camp



Sept. 26 — A defector from Osama bin Laden's terrorist organization, al Qaeda, has told ABCNEWS that one of the men accused of hijacking the planes used in the Sept. 11 attacks trained with him at one of the terrorist mastermind's camps in Afghanistan.


MORE ON THIS STORY
FULL COVERAGE
• America Attacked
VIDEO
• Former bin Laden Soldier Speaks Out
• A Nation United: Full Video Coverage
COMMUNITY
• ABCNEWS' John Miller on Meeting Bin Laden
RELATED STORIES
• John Miller Interviews Bin Laden (May 1998)
• FBI Releases Photos, Seeks Public Tips
• Inside the Taliban



• Pilot Arrested in London Instructed Suspected Hijackers
• The Other Victims of Sept. 11: Pets
• Can New Buildings be Built Any Stronger?


The defector said he trained for six months at a camp in Afghanistan to become an intelligence agent for bin Laden.
When shown photographs of the 19 hijackers, the defector said he recognized one of them, a man federal investigators have identified as Majed Moqed, a possible Saudi national.

"Yeah … He was with my class ... I could recognize him from his face," the defector said. "He is from Saudi Arabia, and he is about 25 to 30 years old."

The Department of Justice has identified Moqed as one of five men suspected of taking control of American Airlines Flight 77 and crashing the plane into the Pentagon.

If the defector is right, he may have provided an important link between bin Laden and the hijackers. Federal investigators have said they have concrete information linking one or more of the hijackers to al Qaeda but they have not publicly linked any of the suspects directly to bin Laden or his camps.

The defector, who is now living outside Afghanistan, said he was shocked by the attacks, but not surprised that the attackers were willing to give their lives for bin Laden and his cause.

"Yes, I was shocked, but I know them better than that. They are not only 19 people. There are a thousand people who want to sacrifice themselves for bin Laden, not only 19. There are more than a thousand. All of them — in Europe, in Canada or in Saudi Arabia — all of them want to do this kind of actions. Terrorist actions."

He said there were 18 other students in his class at the training camp. He said he received training in how to conduct surveillance and how to gather detailed information on potential targets. He said he heard people talk of hijacking airliners, but that he never heard anything about a plot to crash jets into buildings in New York and Washington.

He said bin Laden spoke to his class several times, warning that the United States and Israel wanted to destroy Islam, and that they must be destroyed first. He said his 18 fellow students were sent home to cities in Europe, the Middle East and Canada where they were to wait — as sleeper agents — for instructions.

He said he had no doubt his fellow students would obey any instructions that came from bin Laden. "If bin Laden asked [you] to put a bomb on your body and explode it, they won't say no. They will do that," he said.

After two years in bin Laden's organization, the defector said he became disillusioned with so many plots that targeted innocent civilians. He has defected from al Qaeda and is now cooperating with the U.S. government.

He doubted that the U.S. military, or even special forces, would be able to capture bin Laden in Afghanistan.

"It is impossible to find bin Laden. Bin Laden has many, many places in Afghanistan. You cannot find him," he said, adding that bin Laden is still guarded by a cadre of heavily armed bodyguards, including three of his sons.




 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 574 of 783: Karen  (KarenR) * Fri, Sep 28, 2001 (09:10) * 1 lines 
 
Thanks for all the background, Suzee. Actually, the part that I found hard to believe was the loss of property. Internment I could see how they would achieve. In the US, there are probably greater safeguards on property than human life from a legal standpoint. :-(


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 575 of 783: Donna DL  (fitzwd) * Fri, Sep 28, 2001 (10:37) * 3 lines 
 
loss of property
The internees were sometimes given as few as 2 days to handle their affairs before they were shipped off to the camps. They had to leave everything behind. Those that sold, received not pennies on the dollar, but fractions of pennies on the dollar, as vultures were standing in line ready to take advantage of the situation. While interned, no income was generated, so if people held onto their property, they ultimately could not make mortgage payments or pay property taxes. There were no grace periods, only quick foreclosures. The economic loss was estimated in the hundreds of millions of dollars. All of this was documented in a recent government publication. Some of the literature that has been written about this episode preface the actual internment with a history and description of the location of the real estate occupied. A few expressions come to mind, like follow the money, do the math, or as John McCain recently said about the war we've just entered, "get a map." Most people don't realize the
art that automakers had in the demise of the US railway system. Likewise, most people don't understand the machinations that went on behind the scene during the internment process. And I believe reparations were only $20,000, not $25,000 as earlier reported.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 576 of 783: suzee   (suzee202000) * Fri, Sep 28, 2001 (21:58) * 32 lines 
 
...(Donna) And I believe reparations were only $20,000, not $25,000 as earlier reported......

I think it *was* $20,000 -- $20,000 and an apology! There were some reparations paid in about 1948 – a pittance that amounted to about 5 cents on the dollar.
And non-Japanese real estate speculators did grow rich on land bought from Japanese-Americans for next to nothing and sold later at sky-high prices. Japanese-Americans lost property in many ways. Besides having it confiscated and losing equity (hard to make payments from “camp”), homes and businesses were vandalized and destroyed and also condemned whether they deserved it or not. What is that quotation about evil prevailing when good men do nothing?

...(karen) In the US, there are probably greater safeguards on property than human life from a legal standpoint. :-(


The truth is that it could happen again right now. The Federal government
has enormous power, and the President can do almost anything with the Executive Order(new or existing). The process totally by-passes Congress. He/she can declare martial law, take property, take over power companies, education facilities, airports, manpower, supplies and services as "needed." It can be used for good or bad.

Andrew Jackson used it to remove Cherokee Indians from their land; Lincoln suspended certain legal rights, closed newspapers opposed to his policies; Roosevelt issued the previously mentioned 9066; FEMA was created by E.O.; Truman integrated the US armed forces; Eisenhower sent troops to aid integration in Little Rock. In the 1930's an E.O. required all gold to be turned in to the Federal treasury. I'm losing count of the wars we've fought
without war being declared.

Bush used an E.O. this week to freeze terrorists' assets.

He signed one in June covering the Balkans, prohibiting US companies
from doing business with certain individuals and "blocking the property and
interest in property" of persons threatening stabilization efforts there.

In the right atmosphere of fear and panic, etc., all these things can combine to allow rotten things to happen. Throw in a "real", declared war and the sky's the limit. It's sure a heck of an argument for paying *very* close attention to what your government is doing -- not to mention what we ourselves are doing as citizens.



National Archives and Records Administration
Federal Register - Executive Orders

http://www.nara.gov/fedreg/eo.html






 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 577 of 783: Evelyn  (lafn) * Sat, Sep 29, 2001 (09:46) * 6 lines 
 
In the right atmosphere of fear and panic, etc., all these things can combine to allow rotten things to happen
Well Suzee,that's why I'm glad that I live in a democracy with elections.
We can always throw the bums out and the next guy can rescind those EO
orders if the public deems it so. Sadly, minority groups seldom have that leaverage (Japanese).
Hopefully, we're wiser now . I was happy to see that our representatives are respecting the law-abiding Muslim citizens in our country by going to mosques, including Muslim reps at services.Now it has to filter down to Joe Sixpack.
But it is inconceivable that any president would repeat the error of the Japanese internments.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 578 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Mon, Oct  1, 2001 (09:21) * 14 lines 
 
A poll released Friday by Ekos Research Associates for the Canadian
Broadcasting Corp. and two newspapers found 63 percent of the 1,228
respondents said they felt ``a closer sense of shared values and
interests with the Americans'' since the attacks. Fifty-nine percent
supported giving up some ``national sovereignty'' to increase North
America's security.

In sharing the world's longest undefended border and world's largest
trade partnership with the United States, Canadians realize the
relationship that has bolstered their economy and guaranteed military
defense now carries new demands and responsibilities.


http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011001/ts/attacks_follow_the_leader_1.html


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 579 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Mon, Oct  1, 2001 (09:31) * 8 lines 
 
David Kline's comments posted in news 54:

People have been saying here that the Taliban brought peace out of
chaos in Afghanistan and how do we know that the Northern Alliance
or
anyone else would be better?

For the answers, see the rest in the news conference topic 54.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 580 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Mon, Oct  1, 2001 (10:29) * 6 lines 
 
Militants storm J&K Assembly, 25 killed

SRINAGAR: In a daring suicide attack, an explosive-laden car was blown up by militants on Monday near the entrance of the Jammu and Kashmir state legislature. At least 26 people were feared killed and 50 injured in the attack. Pakistan-based militant group, Jaish-e-Mohammed claimed responsibility for the attack.

http://www.timesofindia.com/



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 581 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Mon, Oct  1, 2001 (14:05) * 19 lines 
 
ABC News reports.

Taliban Taunt
Says U.S. Doesn't Have Courage for Afghan War



Oct. 1 — Afghanistan's ruling Taliban militia said Osama bin Laden is under their control — but the United States "doesn't have the courage" to come get him



• Taliban Says U.S. Doesn't Have Courage for Afghan War
• FBI Foils Possible Sears Tower Attack
• Will Sept. 11 Change our Apolitical Youth?


"Americans don't have the courage to come here," Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar said in an interview with Taliban-run Kabul radio. He recalled the failures of Soviet and British forces to subdue Afghans, and repeatedly warned the United States to "think and think again before attacking Afghanistan."
The fiery words came a day after a Taliban official, Abdul Salam Zaeef, said the regime was willing to negotiate over bin Laden's surrender, if U.S. officials present evidence of his involvement in the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.



 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 582 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Mon, Oct  1, 2001 (20:42) * 1 lines 
 
I spoke with a Canadian man today about their media. He was not surprised at their comments. Apparently their press is even more "liberal" than ours was before this ghastly event unfolded.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 583 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Oct  2, 2001 (08:46) * 1 lines 
 
Cruising in to Austin this morning I tuned in to NPR and heard that NATO just passed a resolution that put's us all in this together and another one time great Afghan fighter has joined our side. Haven't had a chance to check in on http://www.google.com/news yet and look around on CNN, Fox, NYTimes, ABC, etc. but I'll do that later. Sounds like airports are starting to get beefed up security, National Guard, etc. Canada needs to round up the terrorists lurking in the shadows up there, I hope they're mobilizing for this.


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 584 of 783: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Oct  2, 2001 (09:05) * 34 lines 
 
Blair: Attack Coming
British Prime Minister Warns Taliban; Bush Looks At Economy, Security
Issues

Oct. 2 — As the U.S. military dispatched another aircraft carrier in the
war against terrorism, British Prime Minister Tony Blair is reportedly set
to announce that a military attack on Afghanistan's Taliban regime is "now
imminent and will be devastating."

Blair will say he has seen strong evidence linking terrorist Osama bin
Laden to the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States, and will tell a Labor
Party conference in Brighton, England today that the Taliban, which has
been harboring bin Laden, will be made to pay for its actions, according
to the British Broadcasting Corporation.
The leaders of NATO have also been convinced, after a meeting with
U.S. Ambassador-at-Large Francis X. Taylor.

"The facts are clear and compelling. The information presented points
conclusively to an al Qaeda role in the 11th of September attacks," NATO
Secretary-General Lord Robertson said today. "We know that the individuals
who carried out those attacks were part of the worldwide terrorist network
al Qaeda headed by Osama bin Laden and his key lieutenant and protected by
the Taliban."

He said that the information Taylor presented to NATO proved that the
attack was directed from abroad, meaning it is covered by NATO's Article
5, which states that an armed attack on one or more NATO nation is to be
considered an attack against all of them.

"I want to reiterate yet again today that the United States of America can
rely on the full support of its 18 NATO allies in the campaign against
international terrorism," he said.

source ABCnews.com


 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 585 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Tue, Oct  2, 2001 (17:54) * 38 lines 
 
You and me too, Terry in regards to getting Canada up to speed on this. The only positive note from e politician north of the border that I have heard was from a former Prime Minister. Heaven help us!

---------------

A positive Look at 9-11-01...

By now everyone has been hearing the death toll rise and reports of the destruction from the terrorist attacks on the US. These were deplorable acts that we will never forget. But now is a time to look at the other side of the numbers coming out of New York, Washington and Pennsylvania. The sad but somewhat uplifting side that the mainstream media has not reported yet -- the SURVIVAL RATES and some positive news about the attacks.

The Buildings
The World Trade Center
The twin towers of the World Trade Center were places of employment for some 50,000 people. With the missing list of just over 5,000 people, that means 90% of the people targeted survived the attack. A 90% on a test is an 'A.'



The Pentagon
Some 23,000 people were the target of a third plane aimed at the Pentagon. The latest count shows that 123 lost their lives. That is an amazing 99.5% survival rate. In addition, the plane seems to have come in too low, too early to affect a large portion of the building.
On top of that, the section that was hit was the first of five sections to undergo renovations that would help protect the Pentagon from terrorist attacks. It had recently completed straightening and blastproofing, saving untold lives. This attack was sad, but a statistical failure.

The Planes
American Airlines Flight 77
The Boeing 757 that was flown into the outside of the Pentagon could have carried up to 289 people, yet only 64 were aboard. Luckily 78% of the seats were empty.

American Airlines Flight 11
The Boeing 767 could have had up to 351 people aboard, but only carried 92. Thankfully 74 % of the seats were unfilled.
United Airlines Flight 175
Another Boeing 767 that could have sat 351 people only had 65 people on board. Fortunately it was 81% empty.
United Airlines Flight 93
The Boeing 757 was one of the most uplifting stories yet. The smallest flight to be hijacked with only 45 people aboard out of a possible 289 had 84% of its capacity unused. Yet these people stood up to the attackers and thwarted a fourth
attempted destruction of a national landmark, saving untold numbers of lives in the process.

In Summary
Out of potentially 74,280 Americans directly targeted by these inept cowards, 93% survived or avoided the attacks. That's a higher survival rate than heart attacks, breast cancer, kidney transplants and liver transplants--all common, survivable illnesses. The Hijacked planes were mostly empty, the Pentagon was hit at it's strongest point, the overwhelming majority of people in the World Trade Center buildings escaped, and a handful of passengers gave the ultimate sacrifice to save even more lives.








 Topic 41 of 42 [cultures]: Jumbo Jets crash in to World Trade Center
 Response 586 of 783: Marcia  (MarciaH) * Tue, Oct  2, 2001 (18:02) * 66 lines 
 
Subject: "Monday Vs Tuesday"

On Monday there were people fighting against praying in schools
On Tuesday you would have been hard pressed to find a school where someone
was not praying

On Monday there were people who were trying to separate each other by race,
sex, color and creed
On Tuesday they were all holding hands

On Monday we thought that we were secure
On Tuesday we learned better

On Monday we were talking about heroes as being athletes
On Tuesday we relearned what hero meant

On Monday people went to work at the world trade centers as usual
On Tuesday they died

On Monday people were fighting the 10 commandments on government p