Topic 106 of 106: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Tue, Nov 7, 2006 (14:37) |
Dorine (gomezdo)
90 new of 636 responses total.
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 546 of 636: Karen (KarenR) * Sun, Aug 31, 2008 (01:12) * 7 lines
Dorine asked how the Daily Show was covering the convention and I said they were on a one-day lag. That was true, with the exception of Friday's show because they were able to get in the Sarah Palin announcement. My Tivo also included a couple of minutes of the Colbert Report, which started out with Palin as well. Wish I'd recorded that.
(Mari) If McCain thinks that most woman are going to fall in line and vote against their own self-interests because he put a woman on the ticket, he has another thing coming to him.
You might want to view this:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=183521&title=John-McCain-Chooses-a-Running-Mate
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 547 of 636: Jane Scott (OzFirthFan) * Sun, Aug 31, 2008 (03:37) * 4 lines
Moon,
I am sorry to hear that you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. If you were truly a supporter of the issues that Hillary Clinton stands for, you certainly wouldn't be voting for McCain/Palin. I think it's a shame. And voting against your own self interests doesn't help anyone. If you feel so strongly about Clinton getting shafted by her own party - why not vote for a third party candidate whose platform at least mirrors some of the things Clinton stands for?? That's certainly not going to help the Dems, and at least you're not voting against your own self-interests.
As for teaching Creationism in schools, I think it's fine if it's part of a Religious Studies or Philosophy class. It doesn't belong in Science class - it's not a scientific theory or belief in any way. And I'm very much opposed to turning the US into (even more of) a Theocracy. Separation of Church and State is basic to our country's foundations. The founding fathers would be spinning in their graves at some of the things the Republican party does.
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 548 of 636: Jane Scott (OzFirthFan) * Sun, Aug 31, 2008 (03:44) * 2 lines
On another note, I will say that the US is suffering a decline in its political prospects because of the "two party" (practically ONE party now) system. The only way to achieve real progress in the US in politics is, imo, to introduce some kind of "preferential voting" system, which allows people to vote for the candidate which they believe represents their interests, without having their vote flushed down the toilet and/or benefit a candidate/party they loathe. Australia has a pretty good (not perfect) form of preferential voting which ensures that there are always more than two parties, and in fact, quite often allows third party and independent candidates to weild a great deal of power under certain circumstances. The Australian Greens Party always has at least a couple of Senators at the federal level, which makes for some interesting debates, I can assure you. (Not to mention that our venerable Greens Senator, Bob Brown stood up and gave GW a serve while he was here over keeping people detained indef
nitely without trial in Gitmo! I got to shake Dr. Brown's hand and tell him he was my hero for doing that!) Bob Brown is often the only man in Australia to point out the Emporer's lack of clothes, and I think it's great.
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 549 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Sun, Aug 31, 2008 (09:00) * 4 lines
(Mari) If McCain thinks that most woman are going to fall in line and vote against their own self-interests because he put a woman on the ticket, he has another thing coming to him.
But then again, if their self-interests include being pro-life, anti-environment, against gun control and a belief in creationism vs. evolution, then McCain/she are their candidates. What doesn't jive obviously is that if they were also Hillary supporters, because she has the opposite ideology. Then the question becomes why support Hillary because technically she was against those self-intersts. A word comes to mind I won't mention.
Jane, is the political system there ruled by money and special interests as it is here? 3rd party candidates don't have a chance here really as long as those influences are in our system IMO. Except to exist as potential spoilers.
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 550 of 636: Moon Dreams (Moon) * Sun, Aug 31, 2008 (14:16) * 10 lines
I will say that the US is suffering a decline in its political prospects because of the "two party" (practically ONE party now) system.
I agree. It is shame that people who voted from Nader took votes away from Kerry in the last election, etc.
I also have a problem with our court system. I believe there should be a panel of judges to judge criminals not citizens, ie: O.J. results.
As for teaching Creationism in schools, do not fear, it will not happen. My problem comes with the teachings of theories in Science class: Evolution and Big Bang are just that, theories, I think it's fair to add Creationism to it. I fear it not.
Here is blog from a woman(45), I met at Hillary's HQ, a feminist who after graduating from U.C. San Diego adopted two black toddlers, they were brothers and she wanted to keep them together. It is worth reading:
http://www.thesisterhoodofthetravelingpantsuit.blogspot.com/
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 551 of 636: Moon Dreams (Moon) * Sun, Aug 31, 2008 (14:25) * 26 lines
I will not be pushing McCain/Palin on anybody here, so I'll probably not interrupt the Obama fest anymore. I consider myself an Independent now.
Yesterday, I was in the car all day. I listened to POTUS 08 and was able to hear several interviews with people who know Palin. I found one of the interviews to be incredibly interesting. They interviewed an old "friend" of hers (more like a mentor)--an independent candidate who ran for governor in 2002. The following is what he had to say about Palin:
Apparently, Palin was an active Mom who, after college, worked as a commercial fisher (and union member, which I just can't get over....that this woman said, in a room full of Ohio Republicans--"My husband is a proud member of the United Steel Workers Union."). After she had her kids, she became actively involved in PTA. In 1992, she was elected to the city council, where she served for several years before running for Mayor. She served as Mayor for several years before deciding to run for Lt. Governor in 2002. This guy telling the story ran for Governor in 2002, but lost to the sitting Republican Governor, who was a total crook. Anyway, she lost the race for Lt. Governor, but was immediately appointed to head The Oil and Gas Energy Commission (or something like that). Apparently, the head of the Republican National Committee in Alaska also wanted to be on that commission and had promised that if he was appointed to do so, he would stop working as the head of the state party (the commission was suppo
ed to be non-partisan, as AK is 51% independent voters).
Anyway, he was ultimately appointed as well, but continued working as the party leader. Palin complained and he said that he would only do so after hours. At some point, Palin discovered that he was still working as the Party leader on state time. She confronted him and told him that he needed to stop. He blew her off. She confront the Governor of AK (Republican--long time Governor) and he blew her off. When no one would take a stand, she resigned her position and filed an ethics complaint with the Attorney General's office (as run by Republicans). About two weeks later, she received notice from the Attorney General that she was being investigated And that they were going to fine her and potentially prosecute her (for something unrelated, but obviously as a threat considering that she was going after the head of the Party for ethics violation). She contacted her friend, the guy telling this story, and he generated a letter and sent it to the Attorney General. The letter basically said that they expe
ted an investigation to be conducted of the Governor and the RNC head, and that it needed to be done within ten days. The days later, they received notice that an investigation had been filed.
Ultimately, Palin pushed the issue forward until the Attorney General and the head of the RNC were forced to resign. She then ran for Governor in 2006 and kicked the sitting governor's ass, as she ran on a ticket of reform--to get the corrupt Republican politicians out of Alaska. She told Republican Senator Stevens to take his ear marks (potentially corrupt---he has been charged with crimes and I have no doubt that we can thank Palin for helping in that investigation), as she was not interested in his "bridge to nowhere".
She also took on the big oil companies and imposed the highest wind fall profit tax on them that has ever been recorded in AK history. She took the money that she received back from the oil companies and returned it to residents of AK in the form of rebate checks. She also suspended the gas tax. She worked with Democrats to get a natural gas pipeline bill passed and negotiated with an energy company OUTSIDE of AK (which is unheard of, apparently) to get the contract.
Her first day in office, she put the Governor's plan on ebay and sold it. She felt it was excessive and not what the people wanted their taxpayer dollars to go toward. She got rid of her chauffeur (but found him a job somewhere else) and said that she would drive around the state on her own. Since then, she's attended all functions and appointments in her VW Jetta (yes, a non-American car company...and she's a Republican who was a member of the United Steel Workers Union). She also got rid of her domestic staff (but again, found them all jobs), as she said that she had four kids and "how could they learn how to work" if they had someone else taking care of the house. "We ate macaroni and cheese before, and we'll eat it after."
While she is a social conservative, according to several people who were interviewed, she hasn't governed that way, per se. She is pro-life (I am pro-choice, up to the first trimester) and like HRC and Obama, believes marriage should be between a man and a woman. However, when the state attempted to pass legislation banning domestic benefits to same sex partners, she issued her only veto thus far.
So while, she does seem to have issues that she stands for, she seems more concerned in what the people want, versus what she wants personally. She seems a lot like McCain in that respect. She's obviously not afraid of her party considering that she's spent the first two years in the Governor's office fighting them. She's pro-labor, which is about as blue collar Democrat as it gets. It's not just that she's pro-labor, she actually cited her husband as a "proud member of the USWO" (the only time during the speech yesterday when they're were no cheers in the audience). I get the feeling from what people were saying that she's more concerned with reaching compromise and making sure corruption stays out of political office than anything else.
She is being pursued right now for allegedly committing some type of "ethics violation" regarding her former brother in law and his being suspended from the state police. Thus far, there hasn't been any evidence to prove that she had anything to do with it, but of course, "someone" is paying $100,000 to have an investigation done on her. Something tells me that, considering all the enemies she's made in the Republican Party over the last two years, there are a few people out there who would like to see her go down. Ironically, all of them are Republicans, including her state Senator Stevens, who is currently facing criminal prosecutions. Democrats should be jumping up and down at this (and apparently they are in AK), but ironically, they aren't.
Yesterday, a Democratic female congress person was interviewed on CNN. She obviously didn't know anything about Palin, as she said that Palin was part of the "old Republican corruption in Alaska", and that "she's just part of the same old politics." It really pissed me off, to be honest, as there is absolutely nothing about this woman that seems "normal" in politics. I might not agree with her on all the issues, but more importantly, I respect her and from everything I've heard, it appears that she is trustworthy.
Yes, I'd preferred to vote for HRC in 2008, but I'm happy to vote for McCain/Palin so that I may vote for HRC in 2012.
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 552 of 636: Moon Dreams (Moon) * Sun, Aug 31, 2008 (14:43) * 6 lines
My friend who adopted the boys is white, forgot to mention it.
I want to leave with a bang:
http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/2008/08/30/saturday-truth-and-consequences/
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 553 of 636: Linda Mc (maccalinda) * Sun, Aug 31, 2008 (14:51) * 16 lines
G'Day there
Just tuned in...and have been skimming...
Forgive me...I may be ignorant to US politics...but am I right in assuming there are politians who are against abortion, but in favour of the death penalty?? whaaat? That doesnt compute.
I do wonder what actually goes on in these politicians heads...do they actually believe in this stuff, or is it just a game they all play to get elected...a game they all play that screws with peoples' lives...
As I get older, I get more cynical....it sems no matter what side of the fence you sit polically, we are all just pawns in their games...and ambitions...
Perhaps they all go into this with stars in their eye..but once they get a glimpse of that pension fund...it all goes out the window...
Anyway...enough with the gloom and doom...what I really wanted to say to the anti-choice brigade was, HANDS OFF MY CHOICE TO MAKE MY OWN DECISIONS!!!
There...sorry if I offended anyone...but had to get that off my chest...
Those anti abortionists...anti choice peopel make me want to scream!!
ave a good weekend...!! xx
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 554 of 636: Karen (KarenR) * Sun, Aug 31, 2008 (15:46) * 12 lines
(Moon) so I'll probably not interrupt the Obama fest anymore.
Wot Obamafest?
I know I don't moderate this conference but it would appear that, rather than discuss an issue, the person stating a position was attacked. Not the way it should be done. If you don't agree, state why objectively.
(LindaMc).but am I right in assuming there are politians who are against abortion, but in favour of the death penalty?? whaaat? That doesnt compute.
Of course. Hypocrisy runs rampant.
However, it is possible to hold seemingly conflicting views simultaneously if one sees abortion as the killing of an innocent, while the death penalty is for someone far from innocent.
Me own view is entirely consistent and can't be faulted as hypocritical in any way. ;-)
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 555 of 636: Jane Scott (OzFirthFan) * Sun, Aug 31, 2008 (19:16) * 13 lines
I guess, Moon, that you must believe that Gravity doesn't really exist and that it shouldn't be taught in Science class either, since it, as ALL Scientific principals are, is titled "the THEORY of Gravity". Please do not allow the fundamentalist's silly and trite argument that "Evolution is a theory" confuse you. Evolution is a scientific theory supported by a shiteload of factual evidence. As is gravity. Evolution and gravity are both real. You may choose to believe that human beings have not evolved from ape-like creatures but the DNA evidence proves that belief to be entirely wrong. We ARE ape-like creatures. Our closest relative on the planet is the bonobo, with whom we share 98.4% of our DNA - that is, 98.4% of our DNA is IDENTICAL to that of the bonobo. That's not a heckuva lot of difference. We're obviously related. Regardless of what you want to believe.
Although I think you have every right to believe in whatever mythology you wish to, I do not believe you (or anyone) should be allowed to teach this mythology in schools as FACT or SCIENCE. It isn't either of those things, and I do not want America's children being lied to by their teachers as part of the curriculum.
Palin is being investigated, according to Wikipedia and other sources, for firing the AK Public Safety Commissioner for not firing her ex-brother-in-law. While the firing of her ex-bil seems to have justification, there does seem to be some question as to whether she should have fired his boss.
She has a history of firing people who don't "play along" with her. In fact, as Mayor of Wasilla, she fired the Chief of Police for supporting an opposing candidate. He sued, but his suit was dismissed when the judge ruled that Palin had the right under state law to fire city employees, even for political reasons. So - she fired him for political reasons. Seems to me to be the same ol', same ol' from another Republican. They do what they do for political reasons, and not for the good of their constituency.
All that said, she does seem to have done some good in AK. But her experience in governing is very minimal and I truly fear for the country if McCain were to get into power and kick the bucket. It really does send a shiver of fear down my spine.
I'm not a big fan of Obama - I would have preferred to see Clinton nominated/elected. Given that hasn't happened, however, I am utterly opposed to a moment longer of Republican rule. The rest of the world is watching, and if another Republican were to get into office, I think they might all close the borders to Americans.... ;-) (Just kidding, but really, the integrity of the US is very much in question these days!)
Dorine, any political system anywhere in the world is influenced by money and special interests. It is the nature of the beast. But at least with preferential voting, third party and independent candidates can run and get elected because voting for one of them doesn't give advantage to a party/candidate whom you do not wish to vote for. Please read about preferential voting to understand further: Preferential voting
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 556 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Sun, Aug 31, 2008 (21:39) * 4 lines
had the right under state law to fire city employees, even for political reasons
Isn't that against a Federal Law of some sort?
Ok, I must admit, I must look up what a bonobo is. ;-)
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 557 of 636: Jane Scott (OzFirthFan) * Sun, Aug 31, 2008 (21:54) * 1 lines
Sorry - guess I hang out with too many nerds. *lol* Bonobos are also known as "pygmy chimps" (though they are not a subspecies of common chimps, but a separate species in their own right). They are the closest biological/genetic relative to humans currently living on the planet.
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 558 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Sun, Aug 31, 2008 (23:21) * 59 lines
GOP cites Palin's skill, but how relevant is it?
By TED ANTHONY, AP National Writer
Sun Aug 31, 4:56 PM ET
ST. PAUL, Minn. - Wait, now, say the Republicans. You think that Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin lacks experience? You think that at 44, with less than two years running the nation's northernmost state, she doesn't have what it takes yet to be a heartbeat away from the presidency?
Pshaw.
What about the fact that she stood up to embattled Alaska Sen. Ted Stevens? What about her oversight of her state's National Guard contingent? Her experience as a mother? And, hey — what about the fact that she runs a state that happens to be very close to Russia?
Each of these characteristics has been cited by a Republican since Friday as an ingredient in John McCain's conclusion that Palin is qualified to become vice president of the United States.
"She has experience not only in politics but in life," former Republican Sen. Fred Thompson of Tennessee said Sunday on CNN.
None of this suggests that Sarah Palin is not a skilled, competent, multitalented public servant. But it means that, in the face of fierce Democratic assertions that she is too green to be elevated to vice president, the GOP is looking for whatever it can to show that's not the case and to bolster her credentials, particularly in national security.
And in some cases, the responses from Republicans who showed up on the Sunday morning talk-show circuit to promote Palin's qualifications are unexpected, to say the least.
Thompson: "She's a mother of five children. ... And she has more experience than Barack Obama."
Sen. Lindsay Graham of South Carolina: "Governor Palin took on Ted Stevens. If she can take him on, she can take on the Russians." Stevens, a Republican senator, is facing corruption charges and running for re-election.
Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty: "Palin is commander-in-chief of the Alaskan National Guard." The state's Guard has about 4,000 members.
From McCain's wife, Cindy, came a geographic assessment of qualification: "Alaska is the closest part of our continent to Russia. So, it's not as if she doesn't understand what's at stake here."
What these traits say about Palin's ability to serve as vice president or, in an emergency, as president is not entirely clear. But the flurry of comments by leading Republicans hint at a flood-the-zone strategy when it comes to Palin, whose gender, Christian faith and conservative chops infused a lively crackle into John McCain's campaign during the weekend between the two national conventions.
The GOP has also implied that Democratic reactions to Palin's selection are sexist, particularly since, they contend, her time as Alaska's governor gives her the edge over Barack Obama in executive experience. Obama, 47, has spent almost 12 years in office, all of it as a lawmaker — eight years as an Illinois state senator and nearly four as a U.S. senator. Palin's total is 12 — she spent 10 as a city council member and mayor, and nearly two as governor.
"If they want to go down that route, in all candor, she has far more experience than Senator Obama does," McCain said Sunday in St. Louis.
Democrats insist sexism isn't at play. "It's not the woman issue at all," former Democratic Sen. Tom Daschle of South Dakota said Sunday on CNN. "There are a lot of other Republican women who could have filled this role if that is what he was looking for" — such as Texas Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison or Connecticut Gov. M. Jodi Rell.
Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, appearing on CBS' "Face the Nation," saw a kindred spirit in Palin's experience as mayor, despite the fact that her town, Wasilla, has about 7,000 people and his had nearly 8 million when 9/11 happened.
"Maybe it's my own background as a mayor and United States attorney, but this whole idea of executive experience to me would really qualify her," Giuliani said. He dismissed questions about the size of the town she ran. "You know why? She had to make decisions. All Sen. Obama has had to do is talk. That's all he does."
Some of the comments seemed a bit non-sequitur. Russia, for example.
Maj. Gen. Craig Campbell, adjutant general of the Alaska National Guard, considers Palin "extremely responsive and smart" and says she is in charge when it comes to in-state services, such as emergencies and natural disasters where the National Guard is the first responder.
But, in an interview with The Associated Press on Sunday, he said he and Palin play no role in national defense activities, even when they involve the Alaska National Guard. The entire operation is under federal control, and the governor is not briefed on situations.
Stephen C. Donehoo, managing director of Kissinger McLarty Associates in Washington, and former military intelligence officer specializing in Latin America:
"No doubt the campaign staff have her hooked up to a fire hose on foreign policy issues," said Stephen C. Donehoo, managing director of Kissinger McLarty Associates in Washington and a former military intelligence officer.
"No doubt they fear a debate with Joe Biden that touches foreign affairs," Donehoo said. "My guess is Graham and (Joe) Lieberman are doing a lot of tutoring."
Republican Sen. Norm Coleman of Minnesota appears to have no such worries, given what he considers to be Obama's lack of experience.
"The president sets the tone," Coleman said. "The experience issue is on the other side. The No. 1 guy there is the guy without the experience."
___
Contributing to this report were AP writers Tom Raum, Jim Kuhnhenn, Glen Johnson and Nestor Ikeda in St. Paul and Anne Sutton in Juneau, Alaska.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080831/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_palin_grasping_at_straws;_ylt=AtpVkym6dQviIdp9N1d21kqs0NUE
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 559 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Sun, Aug 31, 2008 (23:30) * 24 lines
I read about this the other day, with more specifics into what was edited, how and when, but I can't remember exactly where I read it.
Sarah Palin Wikipedia edits--fast and furious
By Natalie Weinstein, CNET
Sat Aug 30, 11:13 PM ET
Sarah Palin's life has been abuzz since she was officially selected as John McCain's running mate on Friday. Her Wikipedia page has, likewise, been awash with activity.
After well over a thousand edits were made to her page that day, the Wikipedia editors raised the page's protection level to restrict who can make changes, according to the San Jose Mercury News.
Meanwhile, The Washington Post reported evidence via Cyveillance that in the days and hours before Friday's announcement, Palin's page was being edited more frequently than those of other potential vice presidential candidates. A clue, perhaps?
Her page was specifically garnering the attention of someone identified as "Young Trigg," who made numerous edits deemed favorable by a Wikipedia editor.
There has already been much speculation as to who "Young Trigg" may be, especially considering Palin's youngest child is named Trig.
Wikipedia does have specific rules regarding conflict of interest.
However, all it will take to solve the mystery is for someone to track down the identity of "Young Trigg."
On a related note, Palin is trending No. 3 and No. 4 on Twitter at the moment.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/cnet/20080831/tc_cnet/83011357831002959838;_ylt=AqPTVrmCWSnSDg6nT0d6Fk2s0NUE
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 560 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Mon, Sep 1, 2008 (00:11) * 8 lines
(Moon) so I'll probably not interrupt the Obama fest anymore
It's only a perceived "Obamafest" since there seems to be only one person with a significantly different viewpoint willing to post opinions. I applaud you for it. I have to admit I've learned an quite a lot of new things about you in the last week.
I, myself, welcome all viewpoints, to be discussed in a rational, adult manner. In fact, I'm intrigued by varying viewpoints.
I think it's a shame that people with opposing views don't seem comfortable with posting, though I do know some of their opinions and views privately.
The way I look at it, if these views are something you feel strongly about and are personally comfortable with those opinions, it shouldn't be a problem to support your positions publicly as well. Having the courage of your convictions in essence.
To each his own I suppose.
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 561 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Mon, Sep 1, 2008 (09:14) * 6 lines
Having the courage of your convictions in essence
While being open minded of course. :-)
Good day, ladies! I'm off to the US Open again.
The shots from LA of the hurricane coming ashore are frightening. Can't believe all these reporters, including Anderson Cooper, are standing out in the middle of all that. A camera showing what's going on out a window would work fine for me. I don't need the commentary.
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 562 of 636: Moon Dreams (Moon) * Mon, Sep 1, 2008 (13:30) * 49 lines
It's what every Darwinist loves to profess. Turn on the television, read the magazines, and you will be bombarded with "scientific information" regarding the similarities between apes (i.e. monkeys, baboons, etc.) and human beings. Many scientists have, in fact, devoted decades of their lives to studying the behavior of these animals, all with the idea that, yes, these are indeed grandma and grandpa. The notable stories of Jane Goodall and Dianne Fossey living with chimps and gorillas fascinate the public, sparking our minds to believe that the thoughts, behaviors, and communications of these animals are not all that far from our own. Genetic developments in the scientific community have helped reinforce these ideas, or so it seems. What is, however, the truth of the matter? Are we really so similar to our furry friends?
"We also share about 50% of our DNA with bananas and that doesn't make us half bananas, either from the waist up or the waist down." [1]
Steve Jones
Scientist, Evolutionist
An exceptional quote to begin with, revealing that specific, pinpointed similarities between two separate species can mean very little. Baboons, according to research, share 90% of their DNA with human beings. Does this, therefore, make them 90% human? The answer, in light of this quote, is absolutely not. Dr. Barney Maddox, a leading genetic genome researcher, also noted concerning man/monkey genetic differences:
"Now the genetic difference between human and his nearest relative, the chimpanzee, is at least 1.6%. That doesn't sound like much, but calculated out, that is a gap of at least 48,000,000 nucleotides, and a change of only 3 nucleotides is fatal to an animal; there is no possibility of change."
Human Genome Project, Quantitative A Disproof of Evolution, CEM facts sheet. Cited in Doubts about Evolution?
And as a writer for the Smithsonian concedes: "just a few percentage points can translate into vast, unbridgeable gaps between species." [2]
Simply stated, if we were to take this idea of similarities to determine which animal is most like us, we would come up with dire results. Take, for instance, our number of chromosomes (46). Two of our closest ancestors would be the tobacco plant (48) and the bat (44). Furthermore, because the chromosomes in living matter are one of the most complex bits of matter in the known universe, it would seem logical to assume that organisms with the least number of chromosomes are the end result of millions of years of evolution experimenting to increase complexity in living organisms. Therefore, this would reveal that we started from penicillium with only 2 chromosomes, and slowly evolved into fruit flies (8), and after many more millions of years we became tomatoes (12), and so on, until we reached the human stage of 46 chromosomes. Millions of years from now, if we're fortunate, we may become the ultimate life form, a fern, with a total of 480 chromosomes.
Or, again, we could examine the human eye. Anatomically, it is most similar to that of an octopus'. Of course, the theory that the human eye evolved was directly commented by Charles Darwin himself when he said, "To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree." [3]
Another argument in relation to man/monkey similarity has to do with language. A chimpanzee named Washoe and a bonobo named Kanzi "have become famous for their ability to respond to human language in surprisingly complex ways." [4] In contrast, however, Robert Seyfarth, one of the most dedicated primate researchers in the world, says, "You can teach a bear to ride a bicycle in the circus, but it doesn't tell you much about what bears learn to do in the wild." And lastly, "even in the laboratory, no animal has attained anything like true language." [4]
Regarding Seyfarth, he and his wife, who have performed many notable experiments with vervet monkeys and baboons, came to the conclusion after their latest work that the limitations on intelligence and communication in monkeys are severe.[4] For example, foraging baboons from a troop who have separated themselves so that they're on opposite sides of a forest are known to make barking calls, which have long been thought to be calls of contact to one another. Experiments have revealed, however, that the monkeys are only mourning because they're lost.
"...monkeys don't actually recognize that other monkeys have minds," say Seyfarth and his wife.[4] Humans can convey their thoughts and emotions to one another, so that one can sympathize with another who is hurting. Monkeys cannot. While chimps can grieve and certainly show emotions, they do not appear to sympathize with other chimps who are grieved.
Conclusion
Look into the matter yourself. You are your own scientist, and can, with proper study, come to scientific truths firsthand. Don't take their word for something, and don't take our word for something. Truth is truth, fact is fact, and patiently lies waiting, like a fossil, to be discovered.
NOTABLE QUOTES:
"Modern apes, for instance, seem to have sprung out of nowhere. They have no yesterday, no fossil record. And the true origin of modern humans - of upright, naked, tool-making, big-brained beings - is, if we are to be honest with ourselves, an equally mysterious matter."
Dr. Lyall Watson, Anthropologist
'The water people'. Science Digest, vol. 90, May 1982, p. 44.
"Amid the bewildering array of early fossil hominoids, is there one whose morphology marks it as man's hominid ancestor? If the factor of genetic variablitity is considered, the answer appears to be no."
Robert B. Eckhardt, Ph.D.
Professor of Anthropology, Penn State University
'Population genetics and human origins'. Scientific American, vol 226(1), January 1972, p. 94.
"As I have implied, students of fossil primates have not been distinguished for caution when working within the logical constraints of their subject. The record is so astonishing that it is legitmate to ask whether much science is yet to be found in this field at all."
Lord Solly Zuckerman, M.A., M.D., D.Sc.
Beyond the Ivory Tower, Taplinger Pub.Co., New York, 1970, p.64.
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Response 563 of 636: Moon Dreams (Moon) * Mon, Sep 1, 2008 (13:33) * 3 lines
You Can't Make a Monkey Out of Us
http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2003/03/57892
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 564 of 636: Moon Dreams (Moon) * Mon, Sep 1, 2008 (13:37) * 5 lines
I don't live my life in Absolutes.
I am Pro-Choice up to the first trimester. After that, I am Pro-Adoption.
LOL, I feel like I should be running for office now. I do have plenty of opinions on the Economy and Foreign Affairs. I would start by paying more attention to South and Central America and less attention to Africa. Meow.
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Response 565 of 636: Moon Dreams (Moon) * Mon, Sep 1, 2008 (13:39) * 1 lines
And don't get me started on Islam.
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Response 566 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Mon, Sep 1, 2008 (20:29) * 7 lines
And don't get me started on Islam.
Believe me, Moon, I know better. ;-)
"We also share about 50% of our DNA with bananas and that doesn't make us half bananas, either from the waist up or the waist down." [1]
I'm sorry, Moon, but.....LOL!!
That's a new one on me.
I'd bet some men (or their parts ;-)) have been compared to bananas, but not sure if that's good or bad. ;-D
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Response 567 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Mon, Sep 1, 2008 (21:51) * 13 lines
(Moon) There are too many ignorant young girls out there...
(Me) Perhaps if the administration had spent more effort and money on promoting safe sex rather than promoting abstinence (and trying to push religion into it through the faith based programs), which was shown to be a failure, there might be less of this problem.
You know a friend keeps telling me Palin is the gift that keeps on giving......I'm starting to agree:
So much for abstinence-only education
Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 10:35:23 AM PDT
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/1/13540/20367/584/582167
And in all fairness, the highlighted passage above about teenage girls being ignorant, I mean it in the sense of the word that they are lacking knowledge, not being mean and calling them stupid. Proper education about sex goes a long way, or better than "praying" or encouraging they won't and don't do anything at all. I'd call the people espousing that viewpoint ignorant, in the not so nice way.
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Response 568 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Mon, Sep 1, 2008 (22:02) * 22 lines
I think she wrote this for some people here. Really looking forward to the debate. I'm certain they're tutoring her 24 hrs a day and I do believe she's no dummy.
The Lazio Fallacy
by MissLaura
Mon Sep 01, 2008 at 07:45:23 AM PDT
One piece of "common wisdom" that's emerged quickly since John McCain chose Sarah Palin as his running mate is that Joe Biden had better be careful not to look like he's beating up on a pretty girl by, you know, knowing more than she does and showing it. Rick Lazio's name is inevitably mentioned, because obviously if Biden knows more than Palin, it will be equivalent to physically getting up in her face.
At the same time I'm outraged that the groundwork is being laid for the notion that a woman shouldn't be expected to hold her own in what is, effectively, a job interview, I don't doubt that the danger of this is real for Biden.
Why? Because the traditional media has decided it's a landmine for him. That means that, come the vice-presidential debate, this is what they'll be conveying: Sarah Palin has not one shred of a clue about foreign policy, agricultural policy, urban policy? Everyone knew that. But did you check out how Biden was rude enough to make that obvious even to people who know less than Palin? Damn, what a sexist pig that guy is.
We saw in the first days of reporting on the DNC exactly how pervasive a media narrative can be even in the face of contradictory facts. If you can't find meaningful division among Democrats, ignore the fact that the people claiming to be PUMAs are actually Republicans. So it would go with Biden debating Palin.
So here's my problem with this. How fucking insulting to women and to the nation is this line of thinking? The view of women the pundits and reporters are taking here is that we will rise up en masse in outrage that a man who actually knows more than a woman dares to demonstrate it? Not, mind you, that we'll be faced with a woman who actually knows her stuff and can't get a man to acknowledge her expertise -- no one thinks that's going to happen -- but that we'll be offended on behalf of our gender to have one individual woman's ignorance pointed out.
At the same time as the traditional media story will have women as a gender supporting Palin out of their disappointment that Hillary Clinton is not the Democratic nominee, that same story will have women as a gender ignoring the fact that Hillary did pretty damn well in debates against not one but several men, including the aforementioned Joe Biden. This is how dumb they (the women among them included) think we are, that we won't be able to see the massive logical fallacy they're creating out of whole cloth and attributing to us.
A few women will fall for that line of bull. But proportionally, fewer women than major media reporters will do so.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/1/10451/48394/398/581344
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Response 569 of 636: Jane Scott (OzFirthFan) * Mon, Sep 1, 2008 (22:25) * 3 lines
Well, Moon, if you refuse to acknowledge scientific facts, there really isn't anything I'm going to say that's going to convince you that you are closely related to apes. The fact remains that we are. All you need to do is to look at a gorilla or a bonobo to see that human beings are indeed, very closely related to them. But people who refuse to acknowledge the truth of this, and who hold onto their mythological beliefs that human beings are "special", or that we (humans) co-existed with dinosaurs will persist in those beliefs. And that's fine, but I don't want those superstitions taught as "science" or "facts" in our schools. If we start teaching Christian beliefs in our schools, we certainly don't have any basis for preventing the teaching of Islamic beliefs in our schools, either. That's just how that cookies crumbles. Personally, I don't want either one taught outside of religion or mythology classes. Your mileage may vary.
As for Palin, I think she may be turning out to be just a bit more than the Republican Party bargained for. *lol* There's a rumour going around that "her" four-month-old Down Syndrome child is actually her daughter's. I don't know enough about the whole thing to guess if that's true, but that rumour is what forced her to come out with the story that her (17-year-old, unmarried) daughter is now pregnant.
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Response 570 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Mon, Sep 1, 2008 (22:53) * 9 lines
I read about that other rumor last night. It seemed so far fetched, but if even parts of the story are true, many questions are begged.
From what I've been reading, they vetted her in the barest of terms it seems. McCain only spoke to her once, maybe twice, for an extremely short period beforehand. Scary.
If we start teaching Christian beliefs in our schools
In our public schools.
I went to private Catholic school through high school, so I don't have a problem with that. But then I'm also not a creationist.
Hell, I'm not even a believer of organized religion at this point.
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 571 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Mon, Sep 1, 2008 (23:31) * 13 lines
I'd like to ask the pro-lifers/pro-adoption advocates to consider this scenario and let me know what you think (even though I know I'll get one response if I'm lucky).
A 30 year old woman with a 10 year history of significant psychiatric issues (including deep depression), on psych meds, becomes pregnant. During the pregnancy, she has to be taken off her meds, but in order to manage her depression, must undergo ECT (electroshock therapy). Up until the pregnancy, she was living at what was essentially a group home for those with psychiatric issues. She was kicked out of the home when she became pregnant, ending up in a shelter, where she returned to with the baby when she was discharged from the hospital. A visiting nurse was requested for both upon discharge. She has no medical insurance, but applies for Medicaid to cover medical services outside of the hospital after the baby is born, a time consuming process requiring the gathering of quite a number of supporting documents to determine eligibility with no guarantees that she will be accepted to the program.
There was obviously no abortion and the baby was not given up for adoption, both for unknown reasons.
My questions are:
1. The mother did not abort the baby, considered the (morally) correct course of action by some. How does going through and having the baby benefit the baby and/or the mother? Or even society?
2. The mother did not give the child up for adoption, a valid alternative to aborting or keeping the baby. How does this benefit the baby and/or the mother? Or even society?
3. What options do you think she and the baby have? Should have? What if her Medicaid is not approved?
Discuss. :-)
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 572 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Mon, Sep 1, 2008 (23:39) * 1 lines
Oh and I forgot to say, she expressed that she did not want to have a baby, but obviously didn't practice abstinence or safe sex.
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Response 573 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Mon, Sep 1, 2008 (23:57) * 2 lines
And in all fairness, the highlighted passage above about teenage girls being ignorant, I mean it in the sense of the word that they are lacking knowledge, not being mean and calling them stupid.
Even though I didn't make the comment in the first place. ;-)
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Response 574 of 636: Jane Scott (OzFirthFan) * Tue, Sep 2, 2008 (03:39) * 5 lines
Yes, thanks for clarifying Dorine: I am speaking only of public schools, of course. I myself went to Catholic school for seven years, and received religious education in school, which I had/have no problem with, since it was a private, religious school.
If you want your children to be taught religion in school, please feel free to enroll them in a private school. I do not wish to have religious beliefs taught as science, however, in public schools. Even in private school, it's really inappropriate to teach children that biblical representations of the "creation of human beings" is anything resembling science. But really, if you pay someone to teach your child that in a private school, I guess that's your problem (and your poor child's, who is receiving a second-class education if they are taught that).
I'll tell you: the "Creation Museum" that was opened in Kentucky last year makes the US the laughingstock of the world. You should see what my friends here in Australia have said about this place. What a joke. Truly, Moon, the so-called "science" of creationism is basically non-existent.
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Response 575 of 636: Moon Dreams (Moon) * Tue, Sep 2, 2008 (13:58) * 17 lines
As I've said I don't live my life by Absolutes.
Fossils have been found of yew trees with dinosaur fossils dating back millions of years. It turns out that the Yew tree has not evolved, it is precisely as it is today. It was born perfect? With no need to evolve? Trees are living organisms.
I've also never stated that the Theory of Creation should be taught in schools, I do consider it a Theory and many theories are taught in science class, it would just be one more. Islam is not a theory it is a fallacy (waving to Dorine). I also went to Catholic school and was a rebel there as well with my constant controversial questions. I drove one particular priest to almost want to strangle me, LOL!
Never fear Jane, things don't change that quickly. Creationism won't be added to the school curriculum. Roe vs Wade will not be overturned either.
From Nature Mag:
"Gravitational Theory" is our explanation of the phenomenon we know as 'gravity'.
It is a law of gravity that if you drop an object here, it will fall to the ground, but it is Gravitational Theory that explains how and why this occurs.
Gravity is a law, but we understand and explain it through a theory. It is both ; )
Laws are NOT theories. A law is a statement or principle that 'describes' a phenomenon, Theories are coherent, well-substantiated explanations.
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Response 576 of 636: Moon Dreams (Moon) * Tue, Sep 2, 2008 (14:01) * 1 lines
Dorine, that example of a deranged troubled woman is disturbing. The woman was basically abandoned. She should have been helped and counseled into giving her baby up for adoption.
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Response 577 of 636: Moon Dreams (Moon) * Tue, Sep 2, 2008 (14:24) * 2 lines
http://partisanreport.com/blog/2008/09/01/loony-leftist-on-the-attack-against-palin-and-its-personal/
On Sarah's pregnancy, some very funny comments.
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Response 578 of 636: Moon Dreams (Moon) * Tue, Sep 2, 2008 (19:19) * 1 lines
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Response 579 of 636: Jane Scott (OzFirthFan) * Tue, Sep 2, 2008 (20:32) * 2 lines
Hey! Posting pics can be fun! :-)
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Response 580 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Tue, Sep 2, 2008 (20:42) * 1 lines
LOL!!
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Response 581 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Tue, Sep 2, 2008 (20:58) * 48 lines
To change from politics for a while, I thought this was an interesting article regarding women in the workplace from the NYT:
Girl Power at School, but Not at the Office
By HANNAH SELIGSON
Published: August 30, 2008
I WAS born in 1982 — about 20 years after the women’s rights movement began. Growing up in what many have called a post-feminist culture, I did not really experience institutional gender bias. “Girl power” was celebrated, and I felt that all doors were open to me.
When I was in college, the female students excelled academically, sometimes running laps around their male counterparts. Women easily ascended to school leadership positions and prestigious internships. In my graduating class (more than half of which was female) there was a feeling of camaraderie, a sense that we were helping each other succeed.
Then I left the egalitarianism of the classroom for the cubicle, and everything changed. The realization that the knowledge and skills acquired in school don’t always translate at the office is something that all college graduates, men and women, must face. But for women, I have found, the adjustment tends to be much harder. It was certainly hard for me — I lasted only nine months in my first job out of college.
Inspired by my own rocky entrance into the work world, I decided to interview other young women and discovered that many of them, like me, were facing a steep workplace learning curve. What was it, I wondered, that was making our first career steps so wobbly when we had been so accomplished and self-assured in school?
Every workplace is different, but certain patterns began to emerge. I experienced and heard of instances when some women, instead of helping a new female colleague, tried to undermine her. Rather than giving “the new girl” the tools to succeed, they might try to sabotage her advancement.
I saw some men, raised in a different era, who refused to take young women seriously, focused on their appearance and gave them the least desirable assignments. Even in this day and age, I saw women becoming “assistant-ized”— saddled with all the coffee runs and photocopying.
Some workplaces are more sexist than others. A woman should never accept a job offer without first finding out whether the odds are already stacked against her. This background check will assess how a potential employer treats its female employees, how many women are in leadership positions and whether there is a history of pay discrimination or sexual harassment.
But outside forces are only part of the story. I have also seen young women — myself included — getting in the way of their own success. I have found that we need to build a new arsenal of skills to mitigate some of our more “feminine” tendencies. Having lived in a cocoon of equality in college, we may have neglected these vital, real-world skills.
In my own case, I realized that I needed to develop a thick skin, feel comfortable promoting myself, learn how to negotiate, stop being a perfectionist and create a professional network — abilities that men are just more likely to have already.
The more traditionally “feminine” trait of sensitivity, while often appreciated, is not always an asset in the work world. I have spent too much time being rattled by terse e-mail from editors, agents who have told me that I’d never get a book deal, and bosses who have berated me as not being “detail-oriented.” I think that in order to break through any kind of glass ceiling, or simply to get through the day, you have to become impervious to the daily gruffness that’s a part of any job.
I used to think that perfection was the pathway to success. Not so, according to women I have interviewed who have reached the apex of their professions. Rather, it can lead to paralysis. Women, I have found, can let perfectionism stop them from speaking up or taking risks. For men, especially if they are thick-skinned, the thought of someone telling them “no” tends not to be viewed as earth-shattering.
One tactic I’ve found useful in getting over the perfectionist tendency is a shock therapy called soliciting feedback. Not only does it demystify what your boss thinks about you, but it also gives you the data to become a more valuable employee.
The other dose of shock therapy I’ve undergone is reprogramming my brain to think that, yes, girls do brag. I’ve indoctrinated myself with the idea that my job is a two-part process. One part is actually doing the work and the second part is talking about it, preferably in bottom-line terms.
The old-boys’ club proves that men have long known that a professional network is imperative to success. Women don’t have as much of a tradition of business networking (“Do you want to go grab a beer?” doesn’t quite roll off our tongues) and, understandably, they may feel awkward or clueless about how to do it.
I can tell you that it doesn’t work to go up to someone and say, “Will you be my mentor?” That’s the workplace equivalent of “Will you be my boyfriend?” A more organic approach — saying something like, “Can I pick your brain about some ways to transition out of my entry-level position in the next year?” — has been much more effective for me.
Young women also need to learn how to speak salary, a language that many men already seem to know. Coming into the work force, I thought that, just as my professor had given me the grade I deserved on my political science midterm, my company would pay me what I “deserved.”
RECENTLY I had a conversation with a male friend, a reporter in his mid-20s, about how hard it is to ask for money and negotiate for raises. He looked puzzled that I’d have an aversion to something that he does with ease, telling me: “When I want a raise, I just ask for it. And even if they say no, I’ll keep asking for it.”
The American Association of University Women found that men who are a year out of college make 20 percent more in weekly pay than their female co-workers do. Why? Because my friend and scores of other young men understand the central tenet of a bigger paycheck: ask and you shall receive.
The pay disparity speaks to a larger issue that women, coming directly out of the colleges that nurtured and rewarded them and gave them every advantage, may have trouble grasping. For me, it was crystallized in a comment made to me by Myra Hart, a retired senior faculty member at Harvard Business School who studies women as entrepreneurs:
“By and large women believe that the workplace is a meritocracy, and it isn’t.”
Hannah Seligson, a freelance journalist, is the author of “New Girl on the Job: Advice From the Trenches” (Citadel Press).
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Response 582 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Tue, Sep 2, 2008 (20:59) * 1 lines
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/31/jobs/31pre.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&em
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Response 583 of 636: Jane Scott (OzFirthFan) * Tue, Sep 2, 2008 (21:25) * 3 lines
“Do you want to go grab a beer?” doesn’t quite roll off our tongues
Speak for yourself, Hannah! Some of us know how to offer a guy a beer! ;-)
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 584 of 636: Jane Scott (OzFirthFan) * Tue, Sep 2, 2008 (23:41) * 1 lines
Here's a really interesting article about the possible financial implications for Americans of the upcoming election: Economic View
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Response 585 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Wed, Sep 3, 2008 (01:02) * 1 lines
Thanks, Jane. I read that several days ago. Matter of fact, your posting it reminds me I wanted to send it to someone I know who has a degree in Economics and was curious what he thought of it, but I forgot to do it.
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Response 586 of 636: Jane Scott (OzFirthFan) * Wed, Sep 3, 2008 (18:59) * 2 lines
Dunno if you guys have heard about this, but apparently a couple of the Republican "talking heads" got caught on open mics they didn't realise were open...
video clip from MSNBC (link pops up in new window)
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Response 587 of 636: Sarah (OzFirthFan) * Wed, Sep 3, 2008 (19:32) * 1 lines
And here's a rather droll, tongue-in-cheek commentary on the selection of Palin: John McCain, Hero
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Response 588 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Wed, Sep 3, 2008 (19:55) * 3 lines
Here's the video with a transcript beneath it, which I was thankful for. I'm not in a noisefree environment and couldn't hear much of what was said clearly.
http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/09/palin_means_its_over_peggy_noo.html
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Response 589 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Wed, Sep 3, 2008 (22:42) * 1 lines
Oh. My. Goodness.
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Response 590 of 636: Sarah (OzFirthFan) * Wed, Sep 3, 2008 (23:05) * 1 lines
Just curious. I am watching coverage of the RNC on tv, and during Palin's acceptance speech, they keep showing this blonde woman next to Todd Palin. Who is that woman? Sorry to be so clueless, but I didn't hear her introduced, and I've not seen any graphics identifying her, but the tv crew seems to think she's quite important, as they keep showing shots of her reaction to the speech.
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Response 591 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Wed, Sep 3, 2008 (23:17) * 1 lines
i actually didn't notice her. i was switching between that and the Williams sisters match.
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Response 592 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Wed, Sep 3, 2008 (23:20) * 1 lines
but even when I did watch, i noticed the kids and dad...and boyfriend, but not her. Maybe Palin's sister?
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Response 593 of 636: Mari Fulginiti (mari) * Wed, Sep 3, 2008 (23:51) * 1 lines
Are you referring to Cindy McCain?
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Response 594 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Thu, Sep 4, 2008 (00:07) * 2 lines
I started to post her then deleted because I didn't notice in shots of her she was near Todd. Just Guiliani.
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Response 595 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Thu, Sep 4, 2008 (00:25) * 1 lines
Ah, just saw a clip. Yes, it was Cindy McCain.
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 596 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Thu, Sep 4, 2008 (00:38) * 42 lines
Attacks, praise stretch truth at GOP convention
By JIM KUHNHENN, Associated Press Writer
44 minutes ago
ST. PAUL, Minn. - Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin and her Republican supporters held back little Wednesday as they issued dismissive attacks on Barack Obama and flattering praise on her credentials to be vice president. In some cases, the reproach and the praise stretched the truth. [Ed note - Don't they all on both sides stretch the truth.]
Some examples:
PALIN: "I have protected the taxpayers by vetoing wasteful spending ... and championed reform to end the abuses of earmark spending by Congress. I told the Congress 'thanks but no thanks' for that Bridge to Nowhere."
THE FACTS: As mayor of Wasilla, Palin hired a lobbyist and traveled to Washington annually to support earmarks for the town totaling $27 million. In her two years as governor, Alaska has requested nearly $750 million in special federal spending, by far the largest per-capita request in the nation. While Palin notes she rejected plans to build a $398 million bridge from Ketchikan to an island with 50 residents and an airport, that opposition came only after the plan was ridiculed nationally as a "bridge to nowhere."
PALIN: "There is much to like and admire about our opponent. But listening to him speak, it's easy to forget that this is a man who has authored two memoirs but not a single major law or reform — not even in the state senate."
THE FACTS: Compared to McCain and his two decades in the Senate, Obama does have a more meager record. But he has worked with Republicans to pass legislation that expanded efforts to intercept illegal shipments of weapons of mass destruction and to help destroy conventional weapons stockpiles. The legislation became law last year. To demean that accomplishment would be to also demean the work of Republican Sen. Richard Lugar of Indiana, a respected foreign policy voice in the Senate. In Illinois, he was the leader on two big, contentious measures in Illinois: studying racial profiling by police and requiring recordings of interrogations in potential death penalty cases. He also successfully co-sponsored major ethics reform legislation.
PALIN: "The Democratic nominee for president supports plans to raise income taxes, raise payroll taxes, raise investment income taxes, raise the death tax, raise business taxes, and increase the tax burden on the American people by hundreds of billions of dollars."
THE FACTS: The Tax Policy Center, a think tank run jointly by the Brookings Institution and the Urban Institute, concluded that Obama's plan would increase after-tax income for middle-income taxpayers by about 5 percent by 2012, or nearly $2,200 annually. McCain's plan, which cuts taxes across all income levels, would raise after tax-income for middle-income taxpayers by 3 percent, the center concluded.
Obama would provide $80 billion in tax breaks, mainly for poor workers and the elderly, including tripling the Earned Income Tax Credit for minimum-wage workers and higher credits for larger families.
He also would raise income taxes, capital gains and dividend taxes on the wealthiest. He would raise payroll taxes on taxpayers with incomes above $250,000, and he would raise corporate taxes. Small businesses that make more than $250,000 a year would see taxes rise.
MCCAIN: "She's been governor of our largest state, in charge of 20 percent of America's energy supply ... She's responsible for 20 percent of the nation's energy supply. I'm entertained by the comparison and I hope we can keep making that comparison that running a political campaign is somehow comparable to being the executive of the largest state in America," he said in an interview with ABC News' Charles Gibson.
THE FACTS: McCain's phrasing exaggerates both claims. Palin is governor of a state that ranks second nationally in crude oil production, but she's no more "responsible" for that resource than President Bush was when he was governor of Texas, another oil-producing state. In fact, her primary power is the ability to tax oil, which she did in concert with the Alaska Legislature. And where Alaska is the largest state in America, McCain could as easily have called it the 47th largest state — by population.
MCCAIN: "She's the commander of the Alaska National Guard. ... She has been in charge, and she has had national security as one of her primary responsibilities," he said on ABC.
THE FACTS: While governors are in charge of their state guard units, that authority ends whenever those units are called to actual military service. When guard units are deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan, for example, they assume those duties under "federal status," which means they report to the Defense Department, not their governors. Alaska's national guard units have a total of about 4,200 personnel, among the smallest of state guard organizations.
FORMER ARKANSAS GOV. MIKE HUCKABEE: Palin "got more votes running for mayor of Wasilla, Alaska than Joe Biden got running for president of the United States."
THE FACTS: A whopper. Palin got 616 votes in the 1996 mayor's election, and got 909 in her 1999 re-election race, for a total of 1,525. Biden dropped out of the race after the Iowa caucuses, but he still got 76,165 votes in 23 states and the District of Columbia where he was on the ballot during the 2008 presidential primaries.
FORMER MASSACHUSETTS GOV. MITT ROMNEY: "We need change, all right — change from a liberal Washington to a conservative Washington! We have a prescription for every American who wants change in Washington — throw out the big-government liberals, and elect John McCain and Sarah Palin."
THE FACTS: A Back-to-the-Future moment. George W. Bush, a conservative Republican, has been president for nearly eight years. And until last year, Republicans controlled Congress. Only since January 2007 have Democrats have been in charge of the House and Senate.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080904/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_fact_check;_ylt=AjQBP62xpuD7MnlCEKzQthSs0NUE
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Response 597 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Thu, Sep 4, 2008 (00:44) * 4 lines
I started reading this Alaskan blogger a few days ago.
He's quite amusing. Starts out with Guiliani's speech and on to Palin.
http://mudflats.wordpress.com/2008/09/03/here-we-go-rnc-watch-open-thread/
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Response 598 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Thu, Sep 4, 2008 (00:58) * 5 lines
From an AP report, Peggy Noonan trying to "CYA" over her "It's over" remark off camera on the live mic.
UPDATE: Noonan tries to explain her remarks, and says that what's "over" isn't, she meant, McCain's campaign, but that what's over is the truth to the belief that "whatever the base of the Republican party thinks is what America thinks."
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Response 599 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Thu, Sep 4, 2008 (01:01) * 4 lines
Just ran across her whole explanation of what she said:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122044753790594947.html?mod=todays_columnists
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Response 600 of 636: Moon Dreams (Moon) * Thu, Sep 4, 2008 (14:11) * 8 lines
I thought she spoke very well last night. I am looking forward to the debates.
From the Wall Street Journal:
Focus Turns to Palin Record
Governor Pushed Conservative Agenda, but Showed Flexibility
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122048513733097089.html?mod=hpp_us_whats_news
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Response 601 of 636: Karen (KarenR) * Thu, Sep 4, 2008 (14:54) * 17 lines
If we start teaching Christian beliefs in our schools
In our public schools.
Unfortunately, the Chicago Board of Education has been taking over parochial schools that the Archdiocese was about to close and turning them into "charter" schools. A masquerade. Public funding of faith-based schools.
http://www.substancenews.net/issues/2007/november2007/articles/charter_news/november2007_chicago_news_cics_security.html
An outrage to say the least.
For me, it was crystallized in a comment made to me by Myra Hart, a retired senior faculty member at Harvard Business School who studies women as entrepreneurs: “By and large women believe that the workplace is a meritocracy, and it isn’t.”
Truer words were never spoken. Nothing has changed.
Now getting on the more pressing discussion (I watched Sarah Palin's speech this morning, as I wasn't home last night)
(Sarah) during Palin's acceptance speech, they keep showing this blonde woman next to Todd Palin.
My favorite images were of Cindy holding Sarah's baby during Rudy's speech. LOL! Maybe she should've pretended to be breast-feeding him. ;-)
Regardless, Sarah Palin gave a really good speech last night. I'd heard she was articulate and she does know how to deliver her lines to utmost effect.
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Response 602 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Thu, Sep 4, 2008 (16:13) * 9 lines
I, too, am looking forward to the debates.
She is articulate, yes.
I had to LOL at Todd shoveling the baby into one of the little one's arms so he could take his bow.
the Chicago Board of Education has been taking over parochial schools that the Archdiocese was about to close and turning them into "charter" schools. A masquerade. Public funding of faith-based schools.
So they're keeping the same curriculum, which in a parochial school usually includes some sort of religious classes?
What exactly is a "charter" school? Is that like a magnet school?
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 603 of 636: Karen (KarenR) * Thu, Sep 4, 2008 (16:30) * 6 lines
(Dorine) So they're keeping the same curriculum, which in a parochial school usually includes some sort of religious classes?
My understanding is that religious classes are held "before" or "after" official days. Whether they are mandatory I couldn't tell you.
What exactly is a "charter" school? Is that like a magnet school?
Big difference is that they are not part of the Chicago public school system, like a magnet school. Like parochial schools, their teachers are not union. Are their teachers nuns? I don't know.
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 604 of 636: Karen (KarenR) * Thu, Sep 4, 2008 (16:36) * 1 lines
BTW, charter schools exist in many other states and were proposed and endorsed by the AFT. They are regarded as alternative schools and have an accountability for results to the state. However, the difference is how the chartering authority is being used by the State of Illinois, with the mixture of public funding for what are, in essence, nothing more than parochial schools.
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 605 of 636: Karen (KarenR) * Thu, Sep 4, 2008 (17:39) * 5 lines
Last night's Daily Show had to be one of the best I've seen. The opening, which was from the Minneapolis airport/men's room through the contradictory statements (with video) by a number of people was a scream. Then there was the cartoon characterization of Fred Thompson as Foghorn Leghorn and Joe Lieberman as Droopy Dog (?)...really funny stuff.
Definitely watch. All the vids are available below. You can stop with Newt.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/
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Response 606 of 636: Sarah (OzFirthFan) * Thu, Sep 4, 2008 (18:41) * 1 lines
I thought last night's Daily Show was great, too, Karen, though I didn't catch the very beginning. I'll have to go and watch that vid - thanks for the link. Loved the cartoon comparisons, they were spot on and hilarious!
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Response 607 of 636: Sarah (OzFirthFan) * Thu, Sep 4, 2008 (20:43) * 1 lines
Palin in her speech last night: I said thanks, but no thanks to that bridge to nowhere. Well, after she was elected, and found that it was no longer politically expedient, anyway. :-/
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 608 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Thu, Sep 4, 2008 (20:52) * 8 lines
BTW, charter schools exist in many other states and were proposed and endorsed by the AFT. They are regarded as alternative schools and have an accountability for results to the state. However, the difference is how the chartering authority is being used by the State of Illinois, with the mixture of public funding for what are, in essence, nothing more than parochial schools.
Riiiight. I think these are the schools that Jeb Bush was trying to push in Florida using vouchers for kids in poorly rated public schools to go to private schools, or something like that. Or maybe not the same thing at all. I'd have to look it up. It's been too long that I've lived there and paid much attention to what goes on.
I've watched a couple of the Daily Show videos. The one with the video bits on Palin and Newt. Very telling that interview with Newt IMO. Also, did anyone see the cuts to him on Sarah during her speech last night? I'd seen all those bits Jon used the comparisons on Palin. Onblogs that pointed them all out already. But more fun when put all together.
I need to go back and watch the airport men's room bit and cartoon comparisons.
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Response 609 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Thu, Sep 4, 2008 (20:53) * 2 lines
(Sarah) Well, after she was elected, and found that it was no longer politically expedient, anyway. :-/
But kept $27 million for it to build the road to nowhere. It ends where the bridge was to begin.
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Response 610 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Thu, Sep 4, 2008 (20:57) * 1 lines
Why does Jane come up on the front page where the posted topic list is, but it's Sarah at the actual post? Which is it? Who are you? ;-)
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Response 611 of 636: Sarah (OzFirthFan) * Thu, Sep 4, 2008 (21:02) * 3 lines
I'm actually Sarah, but for some unknown reason, the darned message board software keeps insisting that I'm Jane!! Sorry about the confusion.
Another background bit about Sarah Palin. She is in favour of "hunting" wolves and bears from helicopters in Alaska. Pretty disgusting practice. Here's a link, but please be warned - the video is really distressing if you love animals.
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Response 612 of 636: Jane Scott (OzFirthFan) * Thu, Sep 4, 2008 (21:09) * 1 lines
More background on Sarah Palin from a Wasilla resident who has known her since 1992 here
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Response 613 of 636: Karen (KarenR) * Thu, Sep 4, 2008 (21:20) * 20 lines
I'm actually Sarah, but for some unknown reason, the darned message board software keeps insisting that I'm Jane!! Sorry about the confusion.
Two ways to fix that. Your name in any conference is first controlled by what' on your overall Preference page:
http://www.spring.net/yapp-bin/restricted/userinfo
Easy to fix; just make the change and hit the button. Don't worry if you get a strange result. It will have gone through.
Way 2 is via the main page on an individual conference:
http://www.spring.net/yapp-bin/restricted/browse/news/all/new
Right there, toward the top, it says: "Your full name in this conference is"
Whatever is in the box is how you will be shown. Change it there and hit the button on the right that says Change It.
A person can post under different names in conferences.
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Response 614 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Thu, Sep 4, 2008 (21:30) * 8 lines
Yeah, won't be watching that hunting video, but I heard about tha
I actually just read that letter a couple of hours ago, but I couldn't verify the veracity of the person, so I didn't post about it myself.
I try to vet potentially inflammatory and false information such as that letter (with apparently more effort than the McCain team! ;-)), or try to at least post it with a healthy dose of skepticism myself if I can't get much more info. There's no telling if that person is real or not.
But some Alaska newspapers and a blog or two have been quite helpful with info.
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Response 615 of 636: Sarah (OzFirthFan) * Thu, Sep 4, 2008 (22:00) * 3 lines
Thanks for the advice, Karen. I'd already changed it in the first place (userinfo), but changing it through the second link appears to have done the trick.
Dorine, that link I posted was from Anne Kilkenny, a woman who lives in Wasilla. As it says in her letter, you can verify that she is who she says she is by googling her name + Alaska. I did so. The letter appears to be 100% genuine. Here's another article which mentions Anne Kilkenny (though her name is misspelled - sloppy journalism, if you ask me!)
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Response 616 of 636: Karen (KarenR) * Thu, Sep 4, 2008 (22:01) * 1 lines
The second link overrides the first, but that is where it all starts.
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Response 617 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Thu, Sep 4, 2008 (22:41) * 3 lines
Yeah, I knew who she was, though when I read it, I was thinking she could say she was anyone. And some of what she said wasn't news to me as I'd read it either at Alaskan news sites or elsewhere, but she did have some significant detail I hadn't seen yet. I'll admit I didn't read through the entire thing (it was long and I was trying to make dinner at the same time!). I'll finish it and check out your other article tomorrow.
From what I've seen/read, Sarah Palin isn't the "innocent" hockey mom-of-a-special-needs-kid reformer she's been made out to be so far by some. Just like Obama isn't the pristine agent for change he's made out to be either. And it seems John McCain isn't the "maverick" he used to be either when I used to be a supporter of him years ago. And Joe Biden....no surprises there.
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Response 618 of 636: Moon Dreams (Moon) * Fri, Sep 5, 2008 (16:13) * 24 lines
18 Million Silenced In Denver
http://alegrescorner.soapblox.net/showDiary.do;jsessionid=66F18E6004051BFAA7328A6F2FCEA993?diaryId=917
ARKANSAS: "I was so angry at the sham of a roll call that I just wanted it to be over... " "the last time I felt such unbearable group pressure was on a jury" " Obama representatives yelling, you'll be sorry" to "hold outs". It was brutal."
An alternate kept calling out that the state voted 70% for Hillary yet recorded its 47 delegate votes for Obama - "how could that be?"
CALIFORNIA: Chris Stampolis reports "I cast my signed vote for Hillary this morning. It will be added to the roll call count for California". Except, we may never know how California voted...
Delegate Ray Panko reports that, "The California vote was about 230+ for Obama to 160+ for Clinton which did not reflect the state vote. The process was completely controlled by the DNC and the Obama campaign. They had us all vote at breakfast. They took our votes and tallied them. They did this to see how close the numbers would be between Obama and Clinton. The aim was to prevent the public from seeing the closeness of the race. California passed because the Obama/Dean,Nancy Church(DNC) told it to pass. It was a sham, show, farce, gimmick.
Overall, the process was reprehensible. Each delegation was told a different story. No one was told the actual rules of the DNC which say delegates are required, in good conscience, to vote on the first ballot a vote that reflects the will of the voters who sent them to the convention. Gloria Allred was prevented from speaking to the California Hillary delegates to inform them of this rule and that it applies regardless of whether or not the candidate releases us or not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
People understood that pledged delegates would do what they came to Denver to do - vote for one of the nominees to reflect the votes of those who sent them. We expected there to be respect for the 18 million votes and Hillary's historic candidacy. We even thought that Super Delegates would be allowed to do their job - to select the electable Democrat. But that was not to be. Instead, the roll call turned into one chaotic caucus rigged to be sure that the final vote would never be known, without any sublety or reverance for the sanctity of the vote or individual obligations."
A Super Delegate reported that "CA "passed" without ever recording its votes because the Hillary delegation stood firm and had the vote been given accurately, Hillary would have been temporarily ahead in the roll call".
Clinton delegate and LA attorney Gloria Allred grabbed a napkin from the tables at the California delegation breakfast and wore it as a gag to protest not being allowed to speak at the breakfast. "I was not elected to be a potted plant," Allred said through her gag, holding up DNC rules that say delegates must vote as they are elected. Californnia had 204 delegates pledged to Hillary Clinton, versus 166 for Obama."
CONNECTICUT: "I felt blindsided, bullied, mugged. I saw delegates being verbaly arm twisted with threats of loss of positions." "One Obama delegate was bright red, yelling right up in my face".
FLORIDA: Barbara Bassett to Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz: "Do not be party to the DNC and its efforts to further disenfranchise the voters of our state. Had our votes counted on Jan 29, 2008, we would be looking at the nomination of Senator Clinton. Again if our votes counted on May 31, 2008 we would be looking at the nomination of Senator Clinton... Stand up and say, 'We the People of the great state of Florida vote for Hillary Clinton'. I want to be heard, once during this election. I want to be heard. ONE person, ONE vote. I count, I matter. We voted, we spoke and we look to you to honor the integrity of our vote".
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Response 619 of 636: Moon Dreams (Moon) * Fri, Sep 5, 2008 (16:18) * 3 lines
Clinton aides: Palin treatment sexist:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13129.html
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 620 of 636: Karen (KarenR) * Fri, Sep 5, 2008 (16:44) * 9 lines
The idea of a convention, with the relevancy of its origins, has passed. Doris Godwin Kearns was talking about how they were not fait accomplis. That it could take 100 or more ballots in the past to select a candidate.
This being the case, why even have a convention, except for the free television time, i.e., free advertising?
Think how much money would be saved if there weren't primaries either, given that the delegate votes they generate aren't used.
A spokeswoman for the National Organization for Women, noting Palin’s opposition to abortion rights and support of other parts of the social conservative agenda, told Politico, “She's more a conservative man than she is a woman on women's issues. Very disappointing."
What her choice cements is the Republican party's emphasis on the ridiculous issue of family values, which is something the federal government shouldn't have anything to do with, by definition, rather than the big issues, like the economy!
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Response 621 of 636: Moon Dreams (Moon) * Fri, Sep 5, 2008 (17:00) * 1 lines
I totally agree with you, Karen, on all points. :-)
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Response 622 of 636: Sarah (OzFirthFan) * Fri, Sep 5, 2008 (18:59) * 1 lines
Another article on Sarah Palin
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Response 623 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Fri, Sep 5, 2008 (20:00) * 8 lines
(Karen) That it could take 100 or more ballots in the past to select a candidate.
Like picking the Pope.
Moon, you're confusing me, esp when you agree with Karen on all points yet support that ticket.
So if people are calling coverage of Palin treatment, should we tell them to stop whining (for her), "man up" and make sure she works harder? ;-)
Anyone notice that in younger pictures of Palin, she resembles Britney Spears quite a bit?
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 624 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Fri, Sep 5, 2008 (20:01) * 4 lines
Oops, missed a word, plus a typo...
So if people are calling coverage of Palin's treatment sexist, should we tell them to stop whining (for her), "man up" and make sure she works harder? ;-)
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 625 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Fri, Sep 5, 2008 (20:08) * 68 lines
Interesting reasoning on both sides.
Most Clinton backers say Palin's too far a stretch
By JOCELYN NOVECK, AP National Writer
2 hours, 48 minutes ago
Sandy Goodman was deeply disappointed when Hillary Rodham Clinton didn't get the Democratic nomination, then again when she was bypassed for the VP spot. So Goodman, a longtime Florida Democrat, flirted with thoughts of shunning Barack Obama, and perhaps even voting Republican.
Then John McCain picked Sarah Palin as his running mate, and suddenly things became clear to Goodman: The Republicans had no place for her.
"Boy, you are sure not talking to ME!" Goodman, 61, says she thought when she heard Palin's views on issues like abortion rights. Now, Goodman is volunteering for Obama.
But then there's Chrissie Peters. The 37-year-old librarian from Bristol, Tenn. has always voted Democratic and supported Clinton. She assumed she'd vote for Obama — until she saw Palin speak. Now she's voting Republican.
"She was so down-to-earth, a regular person," says Peters. "She hasn't been in politics her whole life, so she isn't jaded or tainted. And I love that she's a mom. Yes, I disagree with some of her positions, but that's what this country is about."
One of the most intriguing questions about the Alaska governor's sudden arrival on the national scene has been what impact it'll have on women voters — especially those who supported Clinton.
Palin made an overture to those voters in her first speech after being chosen by McCain.
Will the pitch work?
Evidence so far shows that Palin is not drawing a lot of support from voters outside the Republican base.
An ABC News poll released Friday found the selection of Palin makes people likelier to vote for McCain by just 6 percentage points — half the 12-point margin by which Sen. Joe Biden makes them more likely to support Obama.
And as for Clinton supporters, eight in 10 said they'd vote for Obama in November, according to a Gallup Poll conducted last weekend after McCain announced his selection of Palin.
Diane Mantouvalos, for one, thinks the numbers are behind the tide.
"We've always been a few weeks ahead of the polls," says the founder of the JustSayNoDeal Web site, a clearinghouse for groups of disaffected Clinton supporters seeking to punish the Democratic Party and Obama for what they see as inexcusable treatment of Clinton.
Mantouvalos hasn't decided whom she'll support in November. But she believes many former Clinton supporters will end up voting for McCain. And she thinks Palin will help make that happen.
"I was there," Mantouvalos says of Palin's convention speech. "I was blown away. She seemed so confident in her own skin."
And what about all the issues on which Palin differs so sharply from Clinton? "Principle trumps issues for this group," she says of her and others like her.
To Gloria Steinem, the nation's most recognizable feminist, that logic is mystifying.
"Selecting Sarah Palin ... is no way to attract most women, including die-hard Clinton supporters," Steinem wrote this week in the Los Angeles Times, arguing that McCain's running mate is seriously underqualified. "Palin shares nothing but a chromosome with Clinton."
In an e-mail to The Associated Press, Steinem added: "I have yet to meet one single human being who was for Hillary and is now for McCain, with or without Palin, but some must exist somewhere."
Historically, women vote on the issues, not by the gender of the candidate, and since 1980 they've trended Democratic for that reason, says Debbie Walsh, director of the Center for American Women and Politics at Rutgers University.
"I wouldn't expect that the McCain-Palin ticket will pull in Clinton supporters," says Walsh. "They were supporting her on the issues. Her gender just added to the appeal."
Whatever appeal gender has for female voters, Obama's campaign is not about to let McCain corner the market. Clinton herself, along with Arizona Gov. Janet Napolitano and Kansas Gov. Kathleen Sebelius, all are scheduled to campaign for Obama in the coming weeks, particularly where they can vouch for Obama to large female audiences
The Washington group EMILY's List, which backs female candidates who support abortion rights, says its own polling shows that a majority of Clinton supporters — 55 percent — say Palin's presence on the ticket makes them even less likely to vote McCain. Only 9 percent say it makes that more likely.
"There really couldn't be more of a distance between Sarah Palin and Hillary Clinton on the issues and the agenda that Clinton fought so passionately for," the group's executive director, Ellen Moran, said in an interview. "The more (Clinton supporters) are learning about Palin, the more they are coming to the Obama-Biden ticket."
That's not the case for self-described "Clinton die-hard" Amy Goldman. The consultant from Edgewater, N.J. says she'd been leaning toward McCain for a while, but his pick of Palin sealed the deal.
"His pick goes outside the box," said Goldman, 52, who like Mantouvalos is involved in the Internet-based efforts to challenge the Democratic party. "I'm not being bitter by voting this way. I really think they're a great ticket."
Liz Hunter won't go that far. The 25-year-old Clinton fan is deeply conflicted. She's not ready to support Obama, but doesn't think she could seriously vote Republican. She read Palin's speech online, so she could pay attention to the details. "Sometimes on TV, you get caught up with all the applause," she says.
"I really respect the fact that she has five children and a career, and keeps her family strong," said Hunter. But at the same time, "I just don't think I could go over to that side." The debates will decide it, she says.
For Goodman, the Florida voter who's shifted to Obama, there will be no such indecision. She'll work to convince fellow Clintonites that they shouldn't be swayed by the woman on the Republican ticket.
"I was insulted when she referred to Hillary and the 18 million cracks in the ceiling," Goodman says, referring to Clinton's line that her primary votes put that many cracks in the glass ceiling that has held women back. "I don't believe Hillary was making those 18 million cracks for Sarah Palin."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080905/ap_on_el_pr/from_clinton_to_palin;_ylt=An_X1CzwrQ9xNWRGsN4SgfLCw5R4
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 626 of 636: Karen (KarenR) * Fri, Sep 5, 2008 (22:20) * 11 lines
(Dorine) Moon, you're confusing me, esp when you agree with Karen on all points yet support that ticket.
Why is that confusing? I was merely analyzing the history of events. What happened. I don't think it would have an impact on how one votes.
And what about all the issues on which Palin differs so sharply from Clinton? "Principle trumps issues for this group," she says of her and others like her.
Like I said, the hell hath no fury defense.
Historically, women vote on the issues, not by the gender of the candidate, and since 1980 they've trended Democratic for that reason
A pitiful lack of data to support such a claim! When it comes to judicial retention, for years, I would only vote Retain for women's names. LOL! At least I had a system. ;-)
But I'd say not enough data relative to important positions. No way! Maybe they also needed to ask how many of those women voted the way their husbands did, which would also account for no gender preference. eh? huh?
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 627 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Fri, Sep 5, 2008 (22:36) * 3 lines
I didn't really get that whole stopping the roll call thing unlike as I said, it wouldn't have tallied up to enough. Esp since some could've changed their votes to Hillary, correct? There was no point to having the delegates there if they couldn't all represent.
You know I don't know what I was reading into the stuff that I didn't understand Moon's comment (I did get why she agreed with you on the convention stuff). My headache's back and it's not important.
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 628 of 636: Moon Dreams (Moon) * Fri, Sep 5, 2008 (22:57) * 7 lines
I totally agree with you, Karen, on all points. :-)
Sheesh, Dorine, just to make sure. ;-) I agree with Karen (post 620), that:
1)The idea of a convention, with the relevancy of its origins, has passed.
2)Think how much money would be saved if there weren't primaries either, given that the delegate votes they generate aren't used.
3)...issue of family values, which is something the federal government shouldn't have anything to do with, by definition, rather than the big issues, like the economy!
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 629 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Sat, Sep 6, 2008 (21:39) * 12 lines
Someone in an email said to me that Palin doesn't have a problem being questioned by anything. Perhaps, perhaps not.
She (and her lawyer) are also using stall tactics in the Troopergate investigation. You'd think she'd want to get it done and over with if there is nothing wrong.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/09/06/carney/index.html
Reading the blue hypertext throughtout the article can be helpful as it's read. If for background on the references if nothing else.
And can someone tell me, how does one become mayor of a town with 7000 people that has no debt and leave it with approx $20 million in debt?
And that plane mentioned in the speech that was sold on eBay? Ah, nope. It didn't sell there. They ended up hiring a broker to sell it.... at a loss to the state of 500K. Guess I gotta give her credit for trying to get rid of it.
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 630 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Sat, Sep 6, 2008 (21:51) * 2 lines
http://www.adn.com/opinion/story/516641.html
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 631 of 636: Karen (KarenR) * Sun, Sep 7, 2008 (14:17) * 9 lines
(Dorine) And that plane mentioned in the speech that was sold on eBay? Ah, nope. It didn't sell there. They ended up hiring a broker to sell it.... at a loss to the state of 500K. Guess I gotta give her credit for trying to get rid of it.
I knew about the plane sale before her acceptance speech and noted that she only said that "I put it on eBay" which doesn't mean it actually was sold there. In fact, it was listed three times before they had to turn it over to broker.
(Dorine) Esp since some could've changed their votes to Hillary, correct?
Not on the first ballot.
Not having a balloting process ensured several things. First and foremost, it created a public perception that there was overwhelming party unity for BO, when the actual numbers cast would not have shown that. Second, even after delegates were released from their pledged support, there's no way to know how people would vote. Wheeling and dealing and who knows what else could've turned things upside down. The DNC didn't want Hillary to win. Pure and simple. As in days of yore, a convention (and its backrooms) decided on things. Here, the backroom decided things before the convention, which is why I said having a convention is a waste of money.
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Response 632 of 636: Moon Dreams (Moon) * Sun, Sep 7, 2008 (15:41) * 13 lines
Karen you have the facts. That is exactly what happened. And, as a Hillary delegate from VA who got to appoint the VA Hillary delegates who attended the convention, I can tell you that they were determine to vote for Hillary on the roll call, of course, they did not get that chance.
I also attended in DC the meeting for counting the MI and FL votes. One HRC superdelegate from VA who was part of the commission told me that the Hillary Supers had to make the deal they made because of threats that the DNC would take all of them away from Hillary. If the DNC had acknowledge the votes to Hillary, she would have won the delegate count because of how well she did with the rest of the primaries. I have been very involved from the start and I just can't fall in line. Nobama!
LA Times, September 4 2008
The "unity" convention in Denver is over. But some Hillary Rodham Clinton
delegates are back home in California stewing over what they describe as
pressure from Barack Obama allies to create a false image of overwhelming
support for the Democratic presidential nominee.
The complete article can be viewed at:
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-trailunity2008sep04,0,5635151.story
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 633 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Sun, Sep 7, 2008 (15:43) * 19 lines
noted that she only said that "I put it on eBay"
Yes, I did see that after, though she was heavily implying she sold it there. McCain himself seems to be playing it up though (perhaps by mistake?) as he said while campaigning in the past couple of days that it was "sold on eBay, for a profit."
I don't know how stopping a roll call in the middle shows party unity. Just the opposite to me.
there's no way to know how people would vote.
Didn't I basically say that before? That they'd stop it to prevent Hillary from ending up with more?
I was thinking about the whole primary election process last night in the shower (such relaxing subjects I think about ;-)). I don't understand why the primaries have to be so dragged out. Just have a primary on one day and have a runoff of the candidates that get over a certain percentage. If only one does, then that's the nominee. Or just use the one who wins flat out.
I understand why delegates were necessary in the days before, say the phone, or even the telegraph, but it should be based on people's votes and that's it at this point. And even if they did still have them, there should be a uniform method of distribution....and NO caucuses. Either have every state give all delegates to the winner, or all states divide the delegates proportionally based on the percentage of votes as some already do.
And I never did understand that ridiculousness of punishing 2 states for moving their dates. So what? (that's a rhetorical question) That shouldn't even be an option.
What's the point of having people vote if the delegates don't count in the current system, esp if the delegates are considered so important. And esp if only one of the main candidates participates. They shouldn't have a choice not to. And if only one of the main ones participate, the votes shouldn't count anyway as it's not fair nor a true representation of what the other candidates might have had in competition.
It's all too ridiculous.
Well, I don't contribute and I'm not getting any of that money if they didn't use it, so if they want to waste it on a convention, whatever.
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 634 of 636: Dorine (gomezdo) * Sun, Sep 7, 2008 (15:49) * 2 lines
(Moon) Nobama!
Then don't vote, Moon (can't believe I said that). I'd rather see people not happy with Obama not vote for him and not give McCain any extra voting help to maintain the status quo in the country/our place in the world. Or godferbid, make matters worse, if that's possible.
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 635 of 636: Moon Dreams (Moon) * Sun, Sep 7, 2008 (16:18) * 1 lines
I need to suport a woman on the ticket, Dorine. As you know, I don't care for Bush, never did. I have been a Dem all my life. An independant thinker who grew up in a conservative Republican household. Fear not, McCain is not Bush. By voting for McCain/Palin, I am voting in protest of the DNC, and I am voting for Hillary in 2012. Nobama!
Topic 106 of 106 [news]: It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
Response 636 of 636: Sarah (OzFirthFan) * Sun, Sep 7, 2008 (19:06) * 1 lines
I can't believe you're determined to vote for McCain just because Palin has a vagina, Moon. Why not just write in Hillary Clinton's name instead? Clinton herself wouldn't want you to vote for McCain/Palin. You are cutting off your nose to spite your face. There are plenty of ways to both vote for a woman and not give your vote to Obama which do not included voting against your own interests.
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