? are separated by boxcars of gibberish which conceal the unexpressed feelings and emotions.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 68 of 149: Barry Kort (moulton) * Mon, Jul 26, 1999 (15:53) * 6 lines
Oops. I got meta-parsed. That last sentence should read:
The Fear of <Engine> and the Got <Caboose>? are separated by boxcars of gibberish which conceal the unexpressed feelings and emotions.
Also, the 500-character string limit bit me twice up there. The one you prolly didn't guess right is this one: The pattern of "yup yup yup nope yup" identifies
the pattern of the conflict, which revolves around a common gap in knowledge.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 69 of 149: Robert Oveson (ov) * Mon, Jul 26, 1999 (16:19) * 9 lines
Did you have to precede those angle brackets with a backslash to get them to show?
Read through Utenbury. Very interesting. What ever came down about the posting of emails on your site?
If somebody sends me an email, then isn't it mine to do with whatever as I please? I mean legally. Also if I send an email to somebody can't I also publish what it was that I sent? It would seem to me that a person would only be in legal trouble if a third party posted the email and both the sender and the receiver were to file for action. What's the reality of the situation?
It's interesting about the ignore feature. Yes if everybody in a group puts a person on ignore then that person no longer has the power to influence. However it will never happen that everybody will place somebody on ignore. I don't know how this came to be, but there is the common assumption that whatever is not rebutted is by default accepted to be true. Combine this with the fact that about the only thing that pisses off a control freak more than not being in control is having somebody else know so
ething that they don't.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 70 of 149: Barry Kort (moulton) * Mon, Jul 26, 1999 (18:22) * 13 lines
To post the angle brackets, the technique is to write: & l t ; and & g t ;
These 4-character codes will produce meta-characters for Less Than and Greater Than that would otherwise be parsed as HTML tag markers.
I posted the unsolicited, unwanted e-mails from Kai in which he threatened sanctions if I did not meet his non-negotiable demands regarding my postings on sites other than Cafe Utne. And for publishing them, he canceled my access to Utne and took personal ownership and control of my intellectual property there.
I do not consider unsolicited and threatening e-mail to be protected, confidential, or copyrighted. Imagine a kidnaper suing the victim for publishing the ransom note on the basis that it was confidential and copyrighted. It's a ludicrous argument. Kai admitted coercion in one of the e-mails. He evidently sees nothing wrong with coercing people.
If two parties enter into a correspondence by mutual consent, and agree to keep their conversation confidential, that's fine. That's an agreement, entered voluntarily, without mental reservation. But when Kai unilaterally sends me a threat, no such agreement exists. I automatically publish the threat. That's what horrified him and the others. I exposed their back alley dealings, their secret campaign to damage my standing elsewhere.
The antidote to control is observation. Bearing accurate witness. And the only way to bear accurate witness is to exhibit the raw evidence. My spin version of his message doesn't count. If I spin it, Kai can unspin it. If I publish his raw message, there is nothing spun and nothing to be unspun. That's what shocked him. That's why he is so adamant about denying anyone the right to republish anything verbatim. But news is news. And tyranny is news. Tyrants just hate being photographed in the act.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 71 of 149: Robert Oveson (ov) * Mon, Jul 26, 1999 (21:03) * 3 lines
&llt; alrighty then > So this whole thing about legality is bullshit then and the publishing of somebody else's email on the web is only something that Kai has made into a "law" because he wants to play these games. Kind of like the other day it was obvious that absolutely everybody knows that you're not supposed to show links into private conferences.
One thing that I want is to make things explicit because if they aren't then everybody knows whats going on, but if you say something they deny it. Oh well I guess if a person get's into childish games its really hard to say who is the most childish.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 72 of 149: Barry Kort (moulton) * Mon, Jul 26, 1999 (21:36) * 1 lines
It's all bogus. He makes up the rules as he goes along, and then violates them himself when it serves his purposes. Roxanna posted a link to LJ before I did. And I asked Kristie if that was OK and she said yes. But then, when I did it, all hell broke loose. Their rules are a sham. A veiled excuse to visit indignities on people. It's about as bogus as it get. Corruption in the spirit of King John. The control freaks are absolutely slaves of their Amygdalas.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 73 of 149: Debra (dawnis) * Tue, Jul 27, 1999 (02:52) * 1 lines
I f the only way of proving that someone said something harmful is to reveal a post, I agree it is legitimate to do so. I had my e-mail broken into and posts removed to keep me from using it as evidence in a grievance. The best thing that could happen on this planet is that we all became able to read minds. You would see an end to BS at that point.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 74 of 149: Barry Kort (moulton) * Tue, Jul 27, 1999 (07:48) * 1 lines
The problem is, some people already believe they do read minds. I see people form misconceptions about someone else's thoughts, feelings, or intentions, and then visit sanctions and indignities upon them on the basis of such unexamined models of another person's mindset. It's utterly horrifying when it happens.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 75 of 149: Debra (dawnis) * Tue, Jul 27, 1999 (12:35) * 1 lines
That is exactly what happened to me at Utne. A group of people decided I was angry and hounded me about being angry despite my clarifications until I became angry with them for insisting I was angry. I left the conference because nothing constructive was happening in regards to the actual topic because my state of mind became the main topic.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 76 of 149: Barry Kort (moulton) * Tue, Jul 27, 1999 (13:27) * 5 lines
It's a form of psychological warfare which I have seen everywhere in our culture.
It greatly vexes and perplexes me. I've seen it done in politics, in litigation, in personnel evaluations, in TV sitcoms, on talk radio, and in adolescent cultures. It's a basic lack of awareness of civility.
I believe it's destroying our culture and wreaking havoc with our emotional well-being.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 77 of 149: Robert Oveson (ov) * Tue, Jul 27, 1999 (16:16) * 8 lines
I think there might be an intentional effort to prevent any kind of constructive discussion because it would provide an example of what is possible when people form solidarity outside of officially sanctioned institutions.
Similar idea to how the US spends so much effort on preventing "good examples" of democracy in action in some third world countries. Democracy has been redefined to be what is in the best interest of the corporate sector rather than the best interests of the people. Chomsky provided a good case for this in "The Culture of Terrorism." Except from his perspective the terrorists were US government supported covert operations.
This idea of using the web to bring people together so they can operate from collective action is one of the big struggles of our time. Keeping everybody atomized and isolated is the best defense that centralized control has of maintaining centralized control.
I find it interesting that the radical right is one of the biggest fear mongers on the dangers of the net, and at the same time are the most successful at using the net for their own evangelicism. They hate it because they know how powerful it could be.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 78 of 149: Debra (dawnis) * Tue, Jul 27, 1999 (18:10) * 3 lines
You go guy! Ov: I sang in Canada in the late 70s. (Grin...I read your Bio at Utne) I was in Onterio...Toronto, Petersborough, Hamilton and Sudsbury. I was in an all female rock and roll band. Canada be cool! I had Satan's Choice (Canada's Hell's Angels) taking of their colors to come here me sing...Grace Slick and Linda Rondstat, Joplin, the Beatles, the Doors, Hendrix, among others...Grin. We was a hot item up there back then.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 79 of 149: Debra (dawnis) * Tue, Jul 27, 1999 (18:12) * 1 lines
Excuse the typos I typing on the run...(blush)
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 80 of 149: Robert Oveson (ov) * Tue, Jul 27, 1999 (19:01) * 2 lines
I've got a poem that really should be a song. Needs a cross between Grace Slick and James Earl Jones, maybe I've slipped a cog here but I mean the voice behind the Darth Vadar mask. Tell me if you can feel the power and hear the music in the background.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 81 of 149: Robert Oveson (ov) * Tue, Jul 27, 1999 (19:03) * 108 lines
The Divine Design
by Robert Oveson
In the beginning there was darkness
It was black and it was void
And there was nothing but the word
The word was Be
No more no less
Just Be cast adrift on a sea of total nothingness.
Now was this a noun named Be
Or a verb and a quest and a destiny
Either way it matters not
For whichever way you choose
Be was all alone and in the dark
without a single clue.
With the faith to believe
That there was a methodology
To find the ideal strategy
And that somewhere down along the line
Through permutations and transformation
Achieves self creation
And applies it back to the start of time
Be declared this to be law
Law by design.
As events started to unfold
Be saw there was more to it than that
For Nothing turned out to be
The ultimate primordial vat
From which nothing could escape
And before all would be done
All the parts in their diversity
would have to act as one
And communicate, and cooperate
And see the whole plan through
Be declared this to be Design Law number two.
Now it had to general
Because you couldn't know all that was involved
The plot would be oral so that it could evolve
And it had to be dynamic so it could withstand the change
This order of General Oral and Dynamic
Became the trinity
That Be declared to be Design Law number three.
The focus is on knowledge and what it all means
Philosophers would later write
Of how its more that what it seems
Of what is it made that gives it physical form
And from what is it begot that caused it to be born
What is its function and how does it perform
And what is its purpose and its future hold in store
To all things these questions
Combine with deductive lore
Be declared this to be Design Law number four.
The future is the possibility
Of what you want and what you need
With imagination waiting to be explored
Inducting options to multiply rather than divide
And search out what it takes to come alive.
Be declared this to be Design Law number five.
Through synthesis all things combine
The past and future intertwine
In common cause that transcends time.
As for effect there is free will
And it all depends on what you pick
There lie the cunning in the cosmic trick
That Be declared to be Design Law number six.
In this chaos of complexity
And you think your in too deep
Enjoy the easy parts while your awake
And do the hard parts in your sleep
It shall be on Earth as in this subconscious heaven
Be declared this to be Design Law number seven.
With this Be realized
And came alive as concept materialized
Be became I Am
Then cycled the essence of its being
Through the process once again
Going back to the start of time
With Be revealing the divine design
And watching it unwind and branch and grow
Until it feels the pulse
And is prompted to trace back to the core
And each and every time
It's more beautiful than it was before
In the end there was darkness
It was black and it was void
There was nothing but words
But two were I Am
And another one was Be
It's all you'll ever want
And all you'll ever need
This meaning passed through verse
Is to be and become one with the entire universe
Be
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 82 of 149: Barry Kort (moulton) * Tue, Jul 27, 1999 (19:30) * 26 lines
On Free Will and Self-Creation
Yesterday
Today
and Tomorrow
I Was
What I Was
I Am
What I Am
I Will Be
What I Will Be
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 83 of 149: Debra (dawnis) * Wed, Jul 28, 1999 (22:12) * 1 lines
((((((((((Ov)))))))))))) Are you planning an operetta? That's a lotta lyrics.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 84 of 149: Robert Oveson (ov) * Thu, Jul 29, 1999 (02:40) * 8 lines
There would be enough material for an opera if the story was told from the last debate prior to the big bang through to the myth goddesses seduction of Horace, but that's all I've got lyrics for. Wish I could sing, play or write music.
Before the big bang, at that stage where concept is attempting to create matter, so that it can prove that it is real, all the components come together and check for consensus, and if not then disperse and further converse, and then come together once again. Have to be sure because there's only have one chance, so if any part has the slightest doubt they break away and work it out, then come back to try again.
Like a multibranched fireworks burst expanding and contracting in pulsating harmonics. Until finally eventually not one says halt and infinitely contracts into nothingness and expands out the other side into matter. And the sound of the spheres is in the design and fifteen billion years to build the reciver for a message sent out long ago and in the doing prove that it matters.
Wild woman of my dreams tell me the story once again.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 85 of 149: Barry Kort (moulton) * Thu, Jul 29, 1999 (03:13) * 1 lines
We are discovering our creation story.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 86 of 149: Robert Oveson (ov) * Mon, Aug 2, 1999 (18:46) * 6 lines
I think I just discovered one of the reasons that these topics go dead. I mean besides the obvious one of somebody sounding like they are so far out there that everybody is afraid to talk to them. It's not being afraid ov, it's just that we don't want to. Oh, sorry.
Unless something new crops up you have to list all topics, and then when you hit on the topic all, every last one of them, all of the topics come flowing down. Thank gus this only had 85 topics or it would have crashed the browser for sure.
Things are still chugging along over at the old place. Seems that being a manipulative sexist is the latest charge to be added to my sentence. Funny how they start crawling out of the woodwork when you don't behave the way they want you to.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 87 of 149: Debra Tenney (dawnis) * Mon, Aug 2, 1999 (19:47) * 3 lines
I just had to tell a guy at Utne: Your statement is very condescending, presumptuous and patronizing. I will not honor it with a reply. I am not in here to defend myself. I came here to engage in discussion about inequities and I thought possible solutions.
His statement was that since you just graduated from college, I will make allowances (or something to that effect) but you need to stop just critiquing and start building. It was so hard not to feed into that crap and start telling him everything I have done as a activist. Grrr Another one off my hotlist.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 88 of 149: N Williams (moonbeam) * Mon, Aug 2, 1999 (19:48) * 5 lines
I don't know what gives with this software. Whole chunks of postings vanish before I read them -- must be something I'm doing without knowing it or the way I have something set.
I dunno. But I just discovered I'd missed everything written in this topic since July 26. Most times when I log on here it says "0" in all my conferences.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 89 of 149: N Williams (moonbeam) * Mon, Aug 2, 1999 (19:53) * 3 lines
Sometimes it's not what we say as much as how we say it, Debra, especially online where nobody can hear the melogy of our voices, or see our facial expressions moderate our very opinionated opinions.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 90 of 149: Robert Oveson (ov) * Mon, Aug 2, 1999 (20:16) * 2 lines
I really get frustrated when I'm told I'm being negative just because I don't buy into the consumerist propaganda, or when I question the current status quo.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 91 of 149: N Williams (moonbeam) * Mon, Aug 2, 1999 (20:53) * 10 lines
They've got you over a barrel, Robert, but you've got them backed into a corner.
It's all part of the scapegoating process. The interesting thing in Cafe_Future, for me, is that there are enough people there who understand this mechanism that it's not working very well. Some of them, like Kate, don't want you to be made a scapegoat, because it would make her a party to the mob. (Never mind that she already is, but she most definitely doesn't want to be seen that way. Do you blame her?)
So there's all this push me-pull me stuff going on in the conference. They've opened it up for comment, which is to say they've invited people to question the status quo. So if YOU do, how can they call you negative and then speak out of the other side of their mouth and thank others for doing so? That's the corner you've got them in.
The barrel they've got YOU over is, of course, that when they accuse you of something that's untrue or misinterpret what you've said, and you defend yourself and set the record straight, you're "being defensive" -- which we all know is just negative as all hell. ;)
Good luck. So far you're dodging the bullets perfectly. And your performance in Meta, making up with Suzanne, was golden.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 92 of 149: Robert Oveson (ov) * Mon, Aug 2, 1999 (22:50) * 10 lines
Thanks Nan, but I didn't consider that to be a performance. Nor any of what's going on over there as a performance as far as that goes. Been playing this as clinicaly cold as a coroner. Being able to dissasociate is one of the gifts that I inherited from my childhood.
Let me qualify that previous paragraph. Challenging Karl to a one on one debate in a new topic in Cafe Future was a bit of a performance. I'm a bit dissapointed that he didn't want to. I think we could have shed a lot of illumination. That much illumination probably would have burned me out though so maybe it was for the best.
One of the things that has been irritating me about this whole process is that I'm being forced to defend myself on points that, for my perspective, have already been covered and if they had read what I had wrote they wouldn't have had to ask the question in the first place. I don't know whether they are using the flippant dismissive technique or whether I'm just not being as clear as I think I am.
Right now I'm just trying to wrap up the loose ends with integrity. If the cafe doesn't change then there is no reason for me to be there, and if there is an effort to change then at this point I can't be involved in that change because there will always be this question of my motivations and whether or not I'm on a power and control trip. I think that I have been a big part of planting the seed that will enable them to do it on their own if they reach that collective desire to do so.
Then again, maybe its just one more story floating around the net.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 93 of 149: N Williams (moonbeam) * Tue, Aug 3, 1999 (01:31) * 7 lines
"Thanks Nan, but I didn't consider that to be a performance. Nor any of what's going on over there as a performance as far as that goes..."
I'm sorry, Robert. I tossed off an imprecise word again, if you took my meaning as being a "staged" performance. I simply meant, I thought you did a very good job with Suzanne in Meta, making peace. It was a performance only in that it was played out on a public stage, IMO. I think I gave you a cheer in Meta, and I should have let it go at that.
I'm not doing at all well tonight with words, in real life. :(
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 94 of 149: Robert Oveson (ov) * Tue, Aug 3, 1999 (04:11) * 16 lines
That's okay Nan. I didn't take it badly.
Though the challenge to Karl was a performance.
For the last year I have been contemplating the alternatives to rule based systems. I'm not exactly against them, because in the abscence of explicit rules all that happens is the rules are driven underground and become implicit. This allows for the leadership by a small clique. On the other hand if you implement a system of rules then you simply transfer power to whoever is best able to use these rules to their own advantage.
Plus, if you have a system of explicit system of rules then it becomes a constant game of finding ways to violoate the intention of the law without violating the letter of the law. Entertaining for some, but energy sapping for everyone else. Pushed to the extreme this results in a system where everything is forbidden except that which is explicitly stated and the explicit is mandatory. At this point creativity, and live, are essentially dead.
So it's between a rock and a hard place.
The only way around this, it seems to me, is for there to exist a larger common goal which everybody desires, and which provides its own postive feedback in the process of obtaining that goal. Fucking and orgasm is a good example.
Rallying the troops to go for this would indeed require a performance. I have given up on that dream happening in the cafe. The performance was cancelled before it even began.
Maybe, just maybe, somewhere, there is a group of people that want this as much as I do. But how do I find them?
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 95 of 149: Barry Kort (moulton) * Tue, Aug 3, 1999 (09:05) * 3 lines
About the only way to get into a community of systems thinkers is to organize a community of systems thinkers in which participation is limited to those who are systems thinkers.
Mebbe if the price of admission were an essay on Recursion. :)
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 96 of 149: Barry Kort (moulton) * Tue, Aug 3, 1999 (09:09) * 15 lines
Proposed opening post of a new topic on Utne:
In the "saloning" tradition, Cafe Utne purports to be a dynamic and evolving community where the stated goal is to discuss ideas & issues in a thoughtful and respectful manner.
The intention is to provide people with new and innovative solutions for living more balanced, fulfilling lives, and bringing about positive change in the world.
Let's take a few measurements and see how close we are coming to realizing that overarching goal.
Let's begin with some background reading on the Best Idea of the Millenium, according to the editors of the New York Times Magazine:
http://www.nytimes.com/library/magazine/millennium/m1/soyinka.html
What evidence can we find, both pro and con, that we are discovering, developing, and demonstrating better ideas for crafting a better world?
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 97 of 149: N Williams (moonbeam) * Tue, Aug 3, 1999 (11:42) * 6 lines
"About the only way to get into a community of systems thinkers is to organize a community of systems thinkers in which participation is limited to those who are systems thinkers. ... Mebbe if the price of admission were an essay on Recursion."
Well, count me out then. I'm much too nonlinear to be classified a "systems thinker" -- and Recursion as an essay topic simply makes me want to run and hide.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 98 of 149: Robert Oveson (ov) * Tue, Aug 3, 1999 (15:35) * 8 lines
Barry the topic that you proposed sounds too much like a challenge and I think that it would be polarized right from the start. There is a new topic that has just started over in Big Sangha that might lead into some of this. It's about doing all of the little things that go unnoticed but together add up and make a difference. Richard made the comment that this is what he thought was happening in the cafe right now. Maybe there is a lot more going on in this regard than is visible because it has been pu
hed underground.
Your post on systems thinking was quite timely. I resent the mail that went through empty last night. Did you get a chance to take a look at some of those links and have you seen them before. It looks like there are people that are doing this type of work. The question is if they want us to be part of their group. My initial suspicion is that those that are working on this would exclude those that haven't got the proper credentials, such as a PhD in this field, or are part of the professional lecture
ircuit on this. You might have a chance of breaking into this but I doubt that I would.
Recursion sounds too computer geeky. Bootstrapping is also a computer term but it seems to have migrate into other disciplines.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 99 of 149: Barry Kort (moulton) * Tue, Aug 3, 1999 (15:55) * 1 lines
I just looked at some of the links. They didn't seem to have an open forum at any of them.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 100 of 149: Robert Oveson (ov) * Tue, Aug 3, 1999 (16:10) * 8 lines
Can't resist snarfing the century post.
I didn't see any open forum there either, but I'm sure that this type of thing must be going on in private conferences at least. I take it that you don't know of any public forums where they are specifically talking about systems thinking, is that correct?
If I can find a place that has free private conferences would you be interesting in setting one up on this subject? I would be interested in participating. Perhaps the first step would be to do an inventory of who is who in the field and find out where they hang out. Then once we have the territory mapped out we could recruit people that are interested.
I think you would be a much better person to do this since this seems to be your main passion, whereas for myself it is related but not primary. The problem with private conferences is the critical mass and all the usual stuff. Or do you think that this is something that has to be in an open forum?
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 101 of 149: wer (KitchenManager) * Tue, Aug 3, 1999 (16:18) * 3 lines
"If I can find a place that has free private conferences would you be interesting in setting one up on this subject?"
do you mean besides here at the Spring?
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 102 of 149: Barry Kort (moulton) * Tue, Aug 3, 1999 (17:13) * 1 lines
Ov, bring up the page here to List All Conferences and scroll all the way to the bottom of the list.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 103 of 149: Robert Oveson (ov) * Tue, Aug 3, 1999 (18:53) * 8 lines
Well I've just checked into the Orenda conference and added it to my hotlist.
Barry I think that if you want to recruit some specialists in the area of systems thinking it would be best to place it in a conference of its own. One that is dry and objective and without any connection to political motivations.
Or we could talk about it here. This seems to be Barry's topic so I can't see why anybody would object to talking in here about things that are related to what you may do.
One of the first questions is if there already is a conference somewhere that is talking about systems thinking. We would only be able to know this if it was a public conference because private conferences are by there nature secret. Then if there is a conference for this type of thing would it be able to participate or would it be an academic clique that is protective of its membership.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 104 of 149: Barry Kort (moulton) * Wed, Aug 4, 1999 (03:31) * 1 lines
I may be the only person here with academic training in systems theory. There aren't very many of us.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 105 of 149: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Wed, Aug 4, 1999 (07:30) * 2 lines
We can set up a conference called systems if you need it.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 106 of 149: Barry Kort (moulton) * Wed, Aug 4, 1999 (09:12) * 1 lines
It might be a worthwhile thing to do, Terry. The notion of systems theory and systems thinking is one that is still outside the public consciousness, but one that is worth organizing a conference around.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 107 of 149: Debra Tenney (dawnis) * Fri, Aug 6, 1999 (22:27) * 3 lines
Ov and Terry thought this chat that Moulton and I participated in might interest you in reference to the above posts.
http://chat.abcnews.go.com/chat/chat.dll?room=abc_BNW_cyber0806
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 108 of 149: Barry Kort (moulton) * Sat, Aug 7, 1999 (11:05) * 7 lines
See also this chat from NPR's Talk of the Nation:
http://yourturn.npr.org/cgi-bin/WebX?13@^359575@.ee774c0
You may need to register to access it. If the above URL doesn't work,
go to http://www.npr.org/yourturn/index.html#totn and click on the topic
title: Learning Without Schools.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 109 of 149: Debra Tenney (dawnis) * Sat, Aug 7, 1999 (12:44) * 12 lines
I came away from the discussion I posted above with a sense of dread. We cannot even create a world, on the human level, that functions by any measure of the imagination in a humane or healthy way and yet our egos lead us to believe we can design machines to be implanted in the brain to increase what? Our dysfunction?
As I told Barry in another forum...throughout my life I have found myself railing at my creator for making me a thinking human being...but what really gets me is, that despite the fact that I have the ability to think I am not infallible nor have I yet met any human who was.
If we are truly thinking beings, we come away from intelligent conversations with the realization, that in ten lifetimes we could not, by any stretch of the mind assimilate enough information to take into consideration all the variables necessary to address the the *key* issues.... that *might* bring about constructive social change...never-the-less identify what those *key* issue really are. Part of the problem lies in the fact that most humans tend to have tunnel vision. Over and over again I see peop
e in their respective fields presenting their theory as the... be all, end all, solution to the world¹s problems.
My father once told me, that main dilemma we face, in trying to figure out which theories were correct, was that the person who wrote best...in a way that held your attention and was understandable...tended to get the most attention paid to his/her vision of the issue. Writing ability; however, had little to do with the validity of the premises made.
The same principle goes with along with speaking ability. How many meeting have you been to where the most forceful and powerful speaker gets and holds the audience¹s attention, regardless of how realistic their premise is.
The end result is, I always end up with the same questions...with all this in mind how do we identify...*the solution*, and even if we were able to...how then do we identify a leadership that can implement workable solutions....without allowing the mentality of power-over to erode the process....the linear mentality that pervades society and keeps us bound in our separate realities (tunnel vision) so that we cannot see beyond the *expertise* that we individually bring to the table.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 110 of 149: N Williams (moonbeam) * Sat, Aug 7, 1999 (12:51) * 5 lines
I read the transcript of the chat and had similar feelings to yours, Debra. So much bravado, so much posturing, so much trying to one-up each other with big words. So much effort to be the most noticed, the "most intelligent" poster.
So little understanding or humanity or listening.
Sorry. It's a rather dark day here in my heart and gut, which have (despite my Mensa Mind) always been the final arbiter when it comes to tough decisions.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 111 of 149: Debra Tenney (dawnis) * Sat, Aug 7, 1999 (13:06) * 3 lines
(((((Moonbeam)))))))) Hey! read Tiffaney's (Danelle) first foray into the Muse. I wish you could have been here. It was her birthday so we stayed up late. In her desc she messed up and only posted f...this sent her into gales of laughter and pleas to not let it stand as f. I'm sure you can imagine the the things that as she put it, "small f" could stand for. She didn't say them, but the implications were there and evey time she thought about it, it brought new gales of laughter.
Your world would not seem so dark if you could have shared this moment with us. A great part of my drive to find solutions comes from her bright spirit. (sigh)
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Response 112 of 149: Barry Kort (moulton) * Sat, Aug 7, 1999 (21:03) * 3 lines
Thinking is a learned behavior. Nor is it taught much in school.
My complaint is not that we have the ability to learn how to think, but that we have this ferchachta Department of Horror Assessment that doesn't do a very good job of assessing true danger. And so when it makes an error by assessing danger when none is present, all hell breaks loose.
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Response 113 of 149: Barry Kort (moulton) * Sun, Aug 8, 1999 (08:41) * 1 lines
Here's another article, a book review on Salon, about the Cyborging of America.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 114 of 149: Barry Kort (moulton) * Sun, Aug 8, 1999 (09:06) * 5 lines
And another article, from the NY Times, about Cog, an advanced robot under development in MIT AI Lab.
Here's my favorite pull-quote:
Despite the fact that he directs the world's largest artificial intelligence laboratory, Dr. [Rodney] Brooks is something of a maverick in the field. "Most of my colleagues here in the lab do very different things and have only contempt for my work," he said cheerfully.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 115 of 149: Barry Kort (moulton) * Sun, Aug 8, 1999 (09:31) * 5 lines
"Just north of Santa Fe, the Tewa pueblo of San Ildefonso sits at the bottom of the plateau on which the laboratory city of Los Alamos stands. While the people of San Ildefonso carry out secret ceremonies in the kivas and dance to the rhythms of the seasons, the physicists of Los Alamos struggle with some of the deepest ideas of quantum theory, particle physics, and a new science called the physics of information, which seeks to understand the very source of pattern and order in the world."
The above pull-quote is from a book review of Fire in the Mind by George Johnson, a former editor of the NY Times who now hosts the NYT Forum on Mysteries of the Universe.
You can read the Preface Johnson's book online.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 116 of 149: N Williams (moonbeam) * Sun, Aug 8, 1999 (11:52) * 4 lines
"Yet if Marshall McLuhan is right, and the medium is the message, then our bodies are our minds (and vice-versa). The body is the interface between the world of the self and the world of others -- remove that interface and you eliminate the pleasure and danger inherent in the unpredictable friction between these worlds."
these words leaped out at me from the Cyborg review. just wanted to say AMEN, having learned this well in the last five years.
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Response 117 of 149: N Williams (moonbeam) * Sun, Aug 8, 1999 (12:01) * 1 lines
thanks for the link to the "fire of the mind" preface, barry. i grew up in that crazy place, you know. whenever i go back to los alamos i find myself pulled more and more by the truth and rootedness of the ancient, caring spirits, not the new, heedless and heart-free ones.
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Response 118 of 149: N Williams (moonbeam) * Sun, Aug 8, 1999 (12:03) * 1 lines
i'm leaving in a few minutes for new mexico -- will be on the road until wednesday. please keep me in your prayers for a safe journey.
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Response 119 of 149: Barry Kort (moulton) * Sun, Aug 8, 1999 (14:42) * 1 lines
I have you in my prayers. Godspeed, Moonbeam.
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Response 120 of 149: Debra Tenney (dawnis) * Sun, Aug 8, 1999 (17:30) * 1 lines
You can check in with everyone while here. This time we shall meet! My prayers are with you.
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Response 121 of 149: Barry Kort (moulton) * Mon, Aug 9, 1999 (19:46) * 9 lines
I stopped by the public library today and found the video of the William Golding classic, Lord of the Flies. It's a parable about a group of schoolboys stranded on a desert island. At first they intend to set up a process of self-governance while awaiting rescue. But their civil society quickly breaks down and turns to anarchy and violence.
It is interesting that they are only able to think in terms of rules, the enforcement of which requires violence. And they quickly devolve into unilateralism and power struggles.
It's a compact little story, and not a bad metaphor for society in general and Utne in particular.
I honestly don't know what it will take to introduce the novel concept of a civil society operating with bilateral agreements. I note that it didn't happen on Utne or in the LJ conference there.
Incidentally, the title, Lord of the Flies, is a literal translation of the Hebrew word/name Beelzebub.
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Response 122 of 149: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Tue, Aug 10, 1999 (11:23) * 3 lines
Have a good, safe trip moonbeam.
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Response 123 of 149: N Williams (moonbeam) * Thu, Aug 12, 1999 (18:35) * 4 lines
thanks for the wings you prayed me -- ;)
the trip was safe and uneventful. i'm in new mexico now and will leave
for utah on saturday. 1,200 miles down, 800 more to go.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 124 of 149: Barry Kort (moulton) * Thu, Aug 12, 1999 (18:44) * 1 lines
Now we pray for Hart and Patrick, and for Buffy, too.
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Response 125 of 149: Paul Terry Walhus (terry) * Thu, Aug 12, 1999 (22:48) * 5 lines
Where are you checking in from? Motel room and laptop?
Safespeed on the journey's final windup.
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Response 126 of 149: Debra Tenney (dawnis) * Fri, Aug 13, 1999 (02:12) * 1 lines
(((((Moonbeam)))))) It was great to hear from you today. Pampee sends her love. Sorry we couldn't meet up again.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 127 of 149: N Williams (moonbeam) * Fri, Aug 13, 1999 (03:12) * 6 lines
terry, i'm checking in from los alamos, borrowing my dad's lab account
(the spies are monitoring it, doncha know)... i have a laptop out in my car but haven't unpacked it this time.
barry, thanks for everything. especially your prayers.
debra, it was so nice to talk with you this evening. sorry i couldn't hold up my end of the conversation very well. we'll meet someday!
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 128 of 149: Barry Kort (moulton) * Mon, Aug 16, 1999 (07:12) * 19 lines
Posted on CNN's community forum in the "Hate Crimes" topic...
Do you believe hate groups are a threat in this country?
Hate is a mask for fear. To express hatred toward a threat is to acknowledge fear of that threat.
Our culture is gripped by fear. And thus we transform objects of fear into objects of hate.
That threatens the objects of hate and the feedback loop begins.
Should the government be involved in monitoring these groups and their members?
Fear of big government is causing the rise of the militia movement. The government targets the militia movement, which in turn targets the goverment. It's another vicious circle. Another feedback loop.
And it's all driven by fear.
How would you deal with instances of domestic terrorism?
By overcoming fear. Look to the sources of fear. Look to the Amygdala. That's the brain's"Department of Horror Assessment." We live in a Stephen King culture. The Amygdala is pumpingout Horror-Moans, sending our brains into recurring paroxysms of terror.
Incidentally, I predict the next round of terrorism in the US will be modeled after NATO's attacks in Yugoslavia. I predict the next round of terrorism will be attacks on our techno-infrastructure. Instead of spilling blood, those angry at the US will begin spilling transformer oil, targeting power substations, microwave towers, bridges, aqueducts, and other vulnerable elements of the US techno-infrastructure.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 129 of 149: Barry Kort (moulton) * Mon, Aug 16, 1999 (07:14) * 1 lines
Oops.. Failed to close the %lt;PRE> tag properly.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
Response 130 of 149: Barry Kort (moulton) * Mon, Aug 16, 1999 (07:15) * 1 lines
Yapp needs an EDIT feature.
Topic 20 of 52 [vc]: The Orenda Project
